Abelton Live. Suite (Max vs Reason)

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Psuper
Posts: 524
Joined: 29 May 2016

06 Feb 2018

Since I was just on the subject, I have some thoughts going on and hoping to pick the brains of those who use Abelton Live. I specifically am asking you guys since most of us are Reason users first, and I don't want the answers colored by Abelton fannies.

First off, I mainly want to look through the spectrum of "I already have Reason which I can rewire/midiloopback. Is {X} worth it?".

First, is Max worth the $300 extra for sounds or modular sound building? Seems it's mainly 60 gigs of sounds (which I won't find useful personally), but the "modular building block" might. However since I use Reason for building instruments, I think even that aspect probably won't be worth it especially given the amount of new learning that will be going on.

Second, does MAX offer anything additional in Live other than the extra sounds and opening up modular builds? I wont need the additional effects or midi manipulation.

I'm sure to have some other questions as I consider my options, but those two will cover the initial flavor I'll be looking at.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

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Oquasec
Posts: 2849
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

06 Feb 2018

This is what ableton live is (Been using it since 2016) (Been on Reason since 2010)
Sony vegas lite, Reaktor & a daw in an all in one suite.

Reason's the same thing, just looks WAY BETTER THAN LIVE LMAO.
Max is something I have only bothered with, this year.
Decided I'm gonna be making custom modules for Ableton since I see that being around for a very long time to come like Reason.
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

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Psuper
Posts: 524
Joined: 29 May 2016

06 Feb 2018

Oquasec wrote:
06 Feb 2018
This is what ableton live is (Been using it since 2016) (Been on Reason since 2010)
Sony vegas lite, Reaktor & a daw in an all in one suite.

Reason's the same thing, just looks WAY BETTER THAN LIVE LMAO.
Max is something I have only bothered with, this year.
Decided I'm gonna be making custom modules for Ableton since I see that being around for a very long time to come like Reason.
I'm guessing then that extra $300 wouldn't be worth it then as I suspected, for me at least.

One reason I was drawn to Abelton is the straight-up simplistic look and approach. I want pure undistracted productivity, no nonsense cutsey graphics etc just give me the working room, clear and defined specifics and a focus on streamlined workflow.

I could continue with Reaper and Reason as the live part in Abelton is just something Id want to experiment with, initially at least. However I'm certainly drawn to it in other areas, I'll try it out and see what it's like.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

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Oquasec
Posts: 2849
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06 Feb 2018

I've dropped Reaper for muse-score since all I needed was notation.I use Ableton since it has more than one function.
Bare-bones piano roll should be a turn off for most, but I like ableton's minimal gui despite it's piano roll being leagues below Reason's.
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

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Psuper
Posts: 524
Joined: 29 May 2016

06 Feb 2018

Oquasec wrote:
06 Feb 2018
I've dropped Reaper for muse-score since all I needed was notation.I use Ableton since it has more than one function.
Bare-bones piano roll should be a turn off for most, but I like ableton's minimal gui despite it's piano roll being leagues below Reason's.
Piano and vocals are pretty much all I do, at least seriously. So if it records audio and plays Pianoteq thats all I *really* need. Not sure how I hadn't seen muse-score (thanks for mentioning it!) but it looks like a perfect addition for my daughter who reads saxophone music. I play by ear and this would be very helpful when I want her to play something but I can't be bothered to half-ass notate it myself.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

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Oquasec
Posts: 2849
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

06 Feb 2018

Daws with sheet view built in: Reaper/Protools/Cubase.
Daws built for modular/ Live applications: Reason/Live/Mu-lab/FL Studio.


Learned Some Piano, Mainly a drumming Synthesist. But yep, For producing I use Reason and for light video editing, live performing and dabbling with a reaktor alternative I use Ableton for that. (Since I am not interested in messing with adobe premier or Sony vegas anytime soon of course)
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

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Vince-Noir-99
Posts: 449
Joined: 02 Dec 2015
Location: Russia

07 Feb 2018

MaxMSP's learning curve is quite steep, as opposed to Reason's patching functionality. In Max you can go beyond audio and CV routing. The integration, since this week, after Live 10 release, is supposedly better. I mention that because M4L has been a giant and fragile Frankenstein-like creature that could easily crash and let you down. Too much going on: they literally put a program inside another.
Max's strength mainly lies in novelty features such as unique sequencers, granular/spectral synthesis, FFT-based effects, underground physical modelling techniques... in other words, 'experimental' things. It's also a great way to learn DSP, and have the freedom to add plugs for free: for example, you can make a much better vocoder than Ableton's built in, with a few objects in Max. Interested in LPC and don't wanna buy Sonic Charge's BitSpeek (just an example, I love BitSpeek:))? You can easily make or find a patch that does it.
In conclusion, Max as a studio synths and FX playground, in my opinion, doesn't seem as appealing as Reason.

EdGrip
Posts: 2343
Joined: 03 Jun 2016

07 Feb 2018

(OT: I love BitSpeek, but it's just too expensive to actually buy for the amount of possible use it will get. If Sonic Charge tried lowering its price by quite a lot I think they'd more than recover the difference.)

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Psuper
Posts: 524
Joined: 29 May 2016

07 Feb 2018

Thanks for the insight fellas, it seemed like it might be that way however I needed to hear it from people who come from a Reason background. I'm still holding out for Reason obviously as I've done so for so long its simply hard to genuinely consider shifting away, but I want to start really considering other possibilities.
Reason needs to DAW.viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7504985

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bik44
Posts: 98
Joined: 03 Jun 2015
Location: Poland

07 Feb 2018

I’m on Live Suite now and as I like it much than Reason 10 I don’t like Max devices at all. More complex devices are cpu hungry and very often simply ugly especially from smaller developers. But Suite is not only Max. There is a Sampler and huge library. New packs from live 10 are fantastic.


Wysłane z iPhone za pomocą Tapatalk

JRJulius
Posts: 26
Joined: 17 Jan 2018

09 Feb 2018

I've come at it a bit differently -- I started on a Tascam 788, moved to Reaper for a bit, tried Reason 6.5 and didn't "click" with it, used Ableton extensively for several years, moved to Logic because I got $100 in iTunes gift cards one Christmas (thanks mom), and recently started using Reason 10 seriously again.

Ableton Live starts "from scratch" better than any other DAW I've used. I honestly think it's better than a pen and paper if you don't have any ideas in your head. The interface stays out of your way, too -- it's not as good as Reason or Logic for deep editing, but if you're playing live or just throwing ideas at the wall, you can see 99% of what you need to see at all times.

Live 10 lets you "stack" MIDI clips from multiple tracks so you can, for instance, see your chords while you're writing a melody. I've only been playing with the feature for a few days but it's very nice -- I recently wrote a song in Reason 10 and kept having to reference my Europa pad MIDI clip when I was trying to write a bass line. Ableton lets you see how all your clips relate. However, Reason's MIDI toolkit (F8) still puts Ableton's MIDI editing to shame. Also, Reason has both Neptune and Pitch Edit built in whereas Live basically requires you to sing on-key.

Standalone Max is pretty intense but Max for Live is a bit more limited and easier to pick up. Everything is laid out visually, but it's still very much a programming language so expect a learning curve if you don't have much experience coding. Compared to Reason's back panel, Max is almost infinitely more powerful BUT you need an idea of where you want to end up before you start patching. There are just too many directions to go with it, you can't start loading modules and connecting them willy-nilly. Perhaps an experienced programmer could grasp it, but for me, I benefit from limitations.

If I recall correctly, you feel that Propellerheads have somewhat neglected the "core" program in recent years. Ableton has been very good about updating their stock instruments and basic workflows. For instance, the whole interface is high-DPI compatible, they added pretty substantial aftertouch support to their FM synth in 2014ish, and they updated their Simpler sampler with an updated workflow, new slicing modes, and brand new filters in 2015. I believe 2016 saw improved latency compensation, as well. The Live 10 upgrade offered a new instrument and some new effects, but the main focus was on subtle-but-meaningful workflow improvements and improved integration/CPU efficiency for Max for Live.

Also, anecdotally, Live 10 runs at 64 samples whereas Live 9 required 256 samples on the same CPU and sound card (late 2013 13" MBP and Apogee Duet USB @ 44,100hz). I haven't benchmarked Reason 10 but anecdotally, I think Live is now better optimized than Reason. I'm not sure if that's a valid argument or not -- I don't have any numbers to back it up and I tend to use each program very differently. But the fact of the matter is that I'm currently running 4 virtual instruments with 1-2 effects per track at 64 samples with no issues. An EMPTY RACK in Reason 10 crackles at 64 samples. Last weekend I was finishing a song in Reason 10 and I had to record vocals at 512 samples on a 12-track pop song (yes I could have bounced in place but I wasn't 100% sold on all my instruments yet and it's kind of cumbersome anyways).

Anyways, the flip side of all this is that Ableton Suite is expensive. I bought Live 8 Standard, got Live 9 Standard for free, then waited about six months before upgrading to Suite so I didn't feel the burn as badly. If you've already got Reason and you're happy with what it's giving you, the sad truth is that the entry fee for Live Suite won't likely give you much joy. But if you've got some money to burn and want to approach your songwriting from a slightly different angle, Live 10 and Max are certainly a good place to start.

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Oquasec
Posts: 2849
Joined: 05 Mar 2017

10 Feb 2018

Dabbled with Ableton because I wanted to see what else was out there really. (Definitely not using fl studio to produce anymore)
I've tried almost everything in existence for a whole 2 years so I'm pretty much-tired lmfao.
Since I wanna actually produce music again I'm going back To Reason, Reaper & Synthedit.
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

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