Switching DAWs

[cgijoe]

I've had major issues using Reason professionally as a sound designer, and in light of recent technical and support problems, I feel it's most prudent to switch to a new DAW that a) has video support and b) will not suddenly prevent me from using the program due to a Windows update. While I grew up with Reason and learned the majority of my production and sound design skills through Reason, the time has come for me to switch to something else. I'll probably continue to use Reason's synths and some effects as needed, but I have no doubt I can pick up similar tool kits elsewhere. It really bums me out - I've been pushing for Reason being taking seriously in my sound design community, but when, after a Windows update, Reason would not run , I had to go into panic mode to find a solution. 10 days after contacting customer support and with tepid and intermittent responses, I still have not been able to run Reason on my production rig. Thankfully I was able to complete my deadlines by using my laptop and bouncing down most of my tracks, I wasn't able to spend the adequate time perfecting the project as much as I was troubleshooting Reason.

Not to say bugs are exclusive to Reason, but the customer support was the last straw in what had been a hold out to try and use Reason exclusively.

I'll still be around, but I'm downloading the Ableton 10 demo currently and am excited to use a DAW with proper track grouping, video support, and session view.

[Noplan]

... but when, after a Windows update ...

Maybe you should have contacted Microsoft.

I wasn't able to spend the adequate time perfecting the project as much as I was troubleshooting Reason.

if you have sound problems with Reason and can`t figure it out by yourself, do not expect that it will be better with other DAWs.

[cgijoe]

Well, when I try to launch Reason it tells me to contact *their* customer support. And they have been spotty in their customer support replies.

And I don't have sound problems with Reason. The program will not run. Their inability to find a solution to their own error message - that's the problem.

[Noplan]

Well, when I try to launch Reason it tells me to contact *their* customer support. And they have been spotty in their customer support replies.

And I don't have sound problems with Reason. The program will not run. Their inability to find a solution to their own error message - that's the problem.

Are you running 32-bit Windows?

[cgijoe]

Nope, I'm using 64.

[Noplan]

Nope, I'm using 64.

Ok, i have read your problem in another thread. :S

[syncanonymous]

cgijoe, what is your strategy to forward with?
I could see such an issue being a major problem, especially if you are mid project with a deadline using heavyweight REs and VSTs and having to switch to a machine that has a fraction of the power.

I do agree that Propellerhead customer support isn’t responsive, so I don’t even try...not that my issues are their problem, I usually don’t ask for support beyond forums like this one, anyway.. It is true that oft times it isn’t the DAW manufacturer’s fault and is very often user lack of awareness...but a little guidance would be nice. I think I have contacted support 3 times since 2000 (automated email) and the only response I remember getting was in this forum trying to get Akai MPK225 remote and lua working, which was very appreciated.

I’ve also tried on twitter...I have had a couple back and forths...but propellerhead twitter was mostly self promotions last I looked. We put on events using Figure the last couple years, I included propellerhead handle in many twitter shout-outs and nothing but tumbleweeds from propellerhead (groan).

I know I am moaning about it, but I don’t see much point in trying to communicate with propellerhead beyond sending them occasional money for product. I just reckon they have a list of things they are doing and if that list includes anything important to me, I will get joy when said is released.

My main mixing DAW, SAWStudio, I have had email and forum conversations with the head dev on many occasions...and he is quite active on his own forum.

I’ll tell a little story about microsoft. My mother in law had a VAIO from 2011. She employed a local guy who offered PC support for many years. Well, that VAIO was having issues...HD not found black screen DOS stuff...She is not kind to anything mechanical...and the poor laptop...the PC specialist couldn’t repair the VAIO, so she had to get a loan and buy a new machine. About 18 mos later, my 2009 VAIO started failing for various reasons. I sought out the 2011 VAIO to see if I could get it running. Well, long story less long...the problem was Windows 7 Defender...it needed an update that was previously buggy and preventing windows update from running. I carried out that defender update which allowed that windows update, soaked it for 3 or 4 days and I subsequently used that 2011 VAIO for the past 3-4 years. It works great now and I still use it; albeit without ever doing any more windows updates on my old machines.

[Psuper]

I enjoy Reaper, however I've been seriously considering going full-on Abelton. If not for the matured DAW which Propellerhead continuously lets me down in, just something to enjoy playing with in a jamming environment.

Hell I use Mangle so much in Reason almost exclusively of other instruments, I doubt I'd even rewire or loopback Reason anymore since its a VST I can load in other hosts. I simply don't enjoy working with multiple daws at once, been trying to justify all my years working with Reason. I've been holding off and holding off.. waiting for some announcement on where Props is taking Reason.

[cgijoe]

I'm fairly well versed with IT and provide support to the studio I work with on a regular basis. I'm sure it is some glitch on Windows, on my side, but I know I'm not the only one who has experienced this issue and a lack of support is quite frustrating. The Ableton community is super active and supportive and their customer support seems to do a decent job of reaching out in appropriate ways wehn needed. I'll just see how things go and only use Reason as a back-pocket when I need it tool.

[QVprod]

Just use what you need. I never understood the need people have to Reason exclusive. If you don’t need anything else then great, but unless Propellerhead is paying you to be a brand ambassador, there’s no need to do it to prove Reason is capable of something. Multiple DAW use is very normal and far less frustrating than hoping a feature you need gets implemented.

[cgijoe]

The downside is only resources I guess. I'm happy to learn something new, but as DAWs can be quite expensive, you want to make sure it's a good fit before reinvesting time and money. I have no issues with using other software, just speaking my mind to the community.

[Psuper]

Just use what you need. I never understood the need people have to Reason exclusive. If you don’t need anything else then great, but unless Propellerhead is paying you to be a brand ambassador, there’s no need to do it to prove Reason is capable of something. Multiple DAW use is very normal and far less frustrating than hoping a feature you need gets implemented.

For me its simplicity and familiarity. I want one DAW and feel there's absolutely no need for more than one if it does what you need it to. The reason you see that a lot here is because with Reason we typically need another DAW to cover where Reason lacks, which is telling.

Instruments, devices, effects, etc sure get as many going in your DAW as you like, but the DAW itself it just makes sense to stick with one.

[MikeMcKew]

As QVprod said, no need to stick to only one. Personally I currently maintain 3 DAWs: Reason, Pro Tools, and Studio One. I find having multiple workflows to choose from gives me the most flexibility, as different tools have different strengths. Your situation sounds rather unique and abnormal... I can understand your frustration.

Anyway, I will go ahead and recommend Studio One. You can get it for a super reasonable price here: https://www.jrrshop.com/presonus-studio ... ssgrade-v3 Enter code "group" at checkout and it comes to about $168. Coming from a background in Pro Tools, Studio One has been a breath of fresh air. And you can always ReWire Reason into it if you need to.

[EdGrip]

The reason you see that a lot here is because with Reason we typically need another DAW to cover where Reason lacks, which is telling.

I'm pretty sure if you lurk on any of the other DAWs' forums, you'll see there's just as much multi-DAW ownership (and moaning).

The only time I've dealt with Props customer support was when I accidentally bought Grainframe 2 and tried to get a refund, and they said it wasn't possible, for fairly obvious reasons. It sounds like they need to improve, though.

I've always thought if I had another DAW it would be Live or Bitwig - different enough for owning alongside Reason to make sense. Different thinkspace. Suite is mega expensive though.

[Kalm]

The amount of frustration with support exist with any major consumer DAW. Look at PT and Studio One. However it doesn't stop me from using it.

I will say WORKFLOW is the one thing you should never compromise on. Personally I think its worth shot to try another DAW and see how it feels. Maybe Reason might be used for a couple instruments. Who knows. I've always been on the fence with Ableton myself but there are gripes I have with the way its designed to me. At least at this point most DAWs have some type of free or limited version where you can test run some navigation and features out without forking up 750 for a full suite. . .

[normen]

b) will not suddenly prevent me from using the program due to a Windows update

You can stop searching now.

[Psuper]

The reason you see that a lot here is because with Reason we typically need another DAW to cover where Reason lacks, which is telling.

I'm pretty sure if you lurk on any of the other DAWs' forums, you'll see there's just as much multi-DAW ownership (and moaning).

The only time I've dealt with Props customer support was when I accidentally bought Grainframe 2 and tried to get a refund, and they said it wasn't possible, for fairly obvious reasons. It sounds like they need to improve, though.

I've always thought if I had another DAW it would be Live or Bitwig - different enough for owning alongside Reason to make sense. Different thinkspace. Suite is mega expensive though.

Perhaps, however it never was obvious if it did happen, and I've been active in three of the largest DAW forums for a very long time and lurking in others.

I had a separate clone PC I would tinker with all the trial periods of software which allowed me to try just about anything anytime I wanted. However I settled on Cakewalk and Reason. Then Sonar and Reason rewired. Then Reaper with Reason rewired. Then just Reason. And now its Reason and Reaper. Only recently have I been looking at getting another DAW and putting Reason back in slave mode, but it will most certainly be just one DAW .

Its just too much to ask using multiple formats, multiple saves, mid files, wavs, etc its impossibly frustrating regardless of how you attempt to do it. I can't imagine anyone who does any serious amount of work in DAWS not running into the nightmare of organizing or loading them. I used to have rns files, cakewalk files, reaper files, etc some wrapped together, most not due to the way you have to load them. Took me almost a year to go through all my old files and convert them just to pure .mid files and wavs and 7zip each one individually after reloading Sonar for just that, 50% of my effects were missing, on and on.

One DAW is the way its supposed to be unless you like torture.

[QVprod]

Its just too much to ask using multiple formats, multiple saves, mid files, wavs, etc its impossibly frustrating regardless of how you attempt to do it. I can't imagine anyone who does any serious amount of work in DAWS not running into the nightmare of organizing or loading them. I used to have rns files, cakewalk files, reaper files, etc some wrapped together, most not due to the way you have to load them. Took me almost a year to go through all my old files and convert them just to pure .mid files and wavs and 7zip each one individually after reloading Sonar for just that, 50% of my effects were missing, on and on.

One DAW is the way its supposed to be unless you like torture.

It really doesn’t have to be that complicated. I own Studio One as well. I don’t use Studio One and Reason together. Which one I open depends on what I’m working on. Audio engineering tasks (recording, mixing, mastering) as well as songs I know will primarily need VSTs (for ‘real’ instruments) get done in Studio One since those are Reason’s weaknesses. Everything else is done with Reason. Beyond that, file management is up to the user.

[Oquasec]

I've had major issues using Reason professionally as a sound designer, and in light of recent technical and support problems, I feel it's most prudent to switch to a new DAW that a) has video support and b) will not suddenly prevent me from using the program due to a Windows update. While I grew up with Reason and learned the majority of my production and sound design skills through Reason, the time has come for me to switch to something else. I'll probably continue to use Reason's synths and some effects as needed, but I have no doubt I can pick up similar tool kits elsewhere. It really bums me out - I've been pushing for Reason being taking seriously in my sound design community, but when, after a Windows update, Reason would not run , I had to go into panic mode to find a solution. 10 days after contacting customer support and with tepid and intermittent responses, I still have not been able to run Reason on my production rig. Thankfully I was able to complete my deadlines by using my laptop and bouncing down most of my tracks, I wasn't able to spend the adequate time perfecting the project as much as I was troubleshooting Reason.

Not to say bugs are exclusive to Reason, but the customer support was the last straw in what had been a hold out to try and use Reason exclusively.

I'll still be around, but I'm downloading the Ableton 10 demo currently and am excited to use a DAW with proper track grouping, video support, and session view.

Reason is more than enough, and it's piano roll is actually better than Ableton's by quite a bit. More grid snap settings, more flexibility with CV, and the same workflow. Rewiring Reason into live would be for live performing.

So unless you are making custom modules in max, live performing or anything Ableton specific, you are NOT going to be getting any better results than with what you already have and should not be daw shaming when it is in fact the user that determines what software they use in the first place.

[Psuper]

Its just too much to ask using multiple formats, multiple saves, mid files, wavs, etc its impossibly frustrating regardless of how you attempt to do it. I can't imagine anyone who does any serious amount of work in DAWS not running into the nightmare of organizing or loading them. I used to have rns files, cakewalk files, reaper files, etc some wrapped together, most not due to the way you have to load them. Took me almost a year to go through all my old files and convert them just to pure .mid files and wavs and 7zip each one individually after reloading Sonar for just that, 50% of my effects were missing, on and on.

One DAW is the way its supposed to be unless you like torture.

It really doesn’t have to be that complicated. I own Studio One as well. I don’t use Studio One and Reason together. Which one I open depends on what I’m working on. Audio engineering tasks (recording, mixing, mastering) as well as songs I know will primarily need VSTs (for ‘real’ instruments) get done in Studio One since those are Reason’s weaknesses. Everything else is done with Reason. Beyond that, file management is up to the user.

Doesn't sound like you need Reason at all except for tinkering since you record, mix, master and use VSTs in S1, not much left for Reason to do.

For me there was no choice in the matter. And I'm talking about just 2 DAWS and Reason over a 15 year period, which had to be rewired if you wanted to work with Audio and Reason, then became a natural workflow due to familiarity.

It's why I wanted to get away from multiple DAWS due to exactly that problem of working with multiple DAWs and the nightmare of file management. So yes, this user opts for one DAW to minimize that torture. I don't think many people actually know what it was like, or can be like. I sure do though.

[QVprod]

Doesn't sound like you need Reason at all except for tinkering since you record, mix, master and use VSTs in S1, not much left for Reason to do.

For me there was no choice in the matter. And I'm talking about just 2 DAWS and Reason over a 15 year period, which had to be rewired if you wanted to work with Audio and Reason, then became a natural workflow due to familiarity.

It's why I wanted to get away from multiple DAWS due to exactly that problem of working with multiple DAWs and the nightmare of file management. So yes, this user opts for one DAW to minimize that torture. I don't think many people actually know what it was like, or can be like. I sure do though.

I’ve done the Rewire thing so yes I know that can be a headache. That’s why I don’t do it. I was Reason exclusive at one point prior to Record and Reason 6 but only because it met all my needs at the time. If Reason is your only sound source with another DAW I get how you can still be stuck with Rewire. If that’s not still the case then I’m not sure the same disadvantages exist. You’re right in saying that I don’t ‘need’ Reason. I have NI Komplete and a few other VSTs so I can make full tracks in S1. I just prefer Reason as I’m most creative in it with or without VSTs for music that doesn’t require a band sound. I do far more than just tinkering with it. I just focus on what it’s good at. I use a different tool for what it’s not.

[Psuper]

Doesn't sound like you need Reason at all except for tinkering since you record, mix, master and use VSTs in S1, not much left for Reason to do.

For me there was no choice in the matter. And I'm talking about just 2 DAWS and Reason over a 15 year period, which had to be rewired if you wanted to work with Audio and Reason, then became a natural workflow due to familiarity.

It's why I wanted to get away from multiple DAWS due to exactly that problem of working with multiple DAWs and the nightmare of file management. So yes, this user opts for one DAW to minimize that torture. I don't think many people actually know what it was like, or can be like. I sure do though.

I’ve done the Rewire thing so yes I know that can be a headache. That’s why I don’t do it. I was Reason exclusive at one point prior to Record and Reason 6 but only because it met all my needs at the time. If Reason is your only sound source with another DAW I get how you can still be stuck with Rewire. If that’s not still the case then I’m not sure the same disadvantages exist. You’re right in saying that I don’t ‘need’ Reason. I have NI Komplete and a few other VSTs so I can make full tracks in S1. I just prefer Reason as I’m most creative in it with or without VSTs for music that doesn’t require a band sound. I do far more than just tinkering with it. I just focus on what it’s good at. I use a different tool for what it’s not.

Certainly exclusive DAW is where it's at, just harder these days for me to justify Reason as that sole DAW. Don't get me wrong, for me it does most things just fine as I do primarily piano and vocals, I'm just looking for core DAW improvements, not more core sounds. And I'm definitely not going to rewire Reason into anything ever again after I did those conversions years ago, so it's either all-in Reason, or all out with the occasional midiloopback.

[kitekrazy]

Often you can roll back a Windows update. You will find in other forums an OS update for both platforms will break something for someone. When it happens to a Sonar user they are really screwed. If one is really paranoid about an OS update drive imaging is the thing to do.

There are plenty of options out there and try as many as you can. Reaper is very good and uses less resources. Plus there is plenty of support on their forum. Studio One is an easy DAW to transition to. Cubase may be up your alley and I would assume their video support is top notch. My only issue with Live is the screen real estate is small for working with midi. Future upgrade pricing is expensive as well, I have a Suite license and the upgrade is $299. I bought Samplitude Pro Suite and the Reason upgrade for less than that. Cubase will also charge you for updates. Download some demos and try as many as you can.

[QVprod]

I have NI most things just fine as I do primarily piano and vocals, I'm just looking for core DAW improvements, not more core sounds. And I'm definitely not going to rewire Reason into anything ever again after I did those conversions years ago, so it's either all-in Reason, or all out with the occasional midiloopback.

I take it you once did music that wasn’t piano and voice centric? Reason would indeed be an odd choice for piano and voice prior to 9.5. Literally just about everything in Reason is useless to you.

[Psuper]

I have NI most things just fine as I do primarily piano and vocals, I'm just looking for core DAW improvements, not more core sounds. And I'm definitely not going to rewire Reason into anything ever again after I did those conversions years ago, so it's either all-in Reason, or all out with the occasional midiloopback.

I take it you once did music that wasn’t piano and voice centric? Reason would indeed be an odd choice for piano and voice prior to 9.5. Literally just about everything in Reason is useless to you.

Indeed I've always said my main use of Reason is much different than what most expect.

I grew up with hardware, Casio cz1, Korg M1, Kurzweil 2000, 4tracks, drum machines, effects racks, etc and when Reason came out it was a must-buy purchase -- so much of that core synth tech with effects in one package was mindblowing and I expect anyone who bought it back then came from a similar background.The more I used it, the more I wanted it as my core DAW and once Audio was added I strived to make it so.

While I still experiment with all kinds of stuff, my 'serious work' is Piano and Vocals. And having a cornucopia of effects and routing makes it pure fun even if its not efficient in many ways.

My sum from a prior post:
I use Reason because it's genuinely fun to tinker with: It's enjoyable building sounds and effects. However 95% of my *real* music is piano and voice, something most people never would choose Reason for. I've always liked Reason since it stood out from the pack and brought a conventional hardware experience to software. I've had my fair share of hardware, some I still use (most not), so I'm biased and want to make Reason work for everything I'd need.