Black Lion Audio interface mod? Anyone tried this?

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skie
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18 Dec 2017

I'm sending my Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 to be modded by Black Lion Audio - it costs $500 but supposed to sound better than (or at least as good as) UAD, RME, etc. Anyone done this to any of their interfaces? Here is the link for the mod on Sweetwater https://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/BLMScar18i20

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QVprod
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18 Dec 2017

I've never done it but I've known about their mods for a while. All reviews I've seen on forums have been great. However the fact that Sweetwater is selling it, you're definitely going to get quality.

skie
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18 Dec 2017

Nice I'm really excited about it...Im trusting that this will add more than $495 of value into the interface otherwise whats the point.

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selig
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18 Dec 2017

skie wrote:
18 Dec 2017
Nice I'm really excited about it...Im trusting that this will add more than $495 of value into the interface otherwise whats the point.
I would always suggest comparing before purchasing. Sure, it will sound "better", but what does that mean to you? Could be mainly lower noise specs, and if so you have to decide if that's important to you. Or could be lower distortion specs, or lower jitter, or any number of things in varying amounts that may or MAY NOT be important (and audible) to you.

Then, even if you DO hear a difference, you have to decision if it's worth the money, and decide what happens when the unit needs repairs - who do you send it to when there's a problem?

Black Lion is a reputable company that's been around for quite some time. I opted not to mod my Digital 002 (their first product IIRC) because it simply didn't give me the value. I did a comparison once adding a GML mic pre in front of my interface, and it improved the sound immensely. Then I switched to a high end A/D (Apogee IIRC) and I could hardly hear any difference. So my conclusion at that time was that the mic pre upgrade gave me an audible improvement, and a high end A/D barely made much difference.

Also note that each mod is different - someone may rave about how it changed their interface, but that doesn't mean it will do the same for yours (or that your applications will benefit from the specific mods). Check out this page to see how your mod stacks up agains other interfaces:
https://www.blacklionaudio.com/mod-ratings/

I'm not at all trying to talk you out of this product, they are a well respected company. I'm just saying to use the typical "buyer beware" approach because some of these mods, which undoubtedly are improvements, are subtle to many ears! It will be your call alone as to whether the improvements are worth the investment.
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

skie
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18 Dec 2017

^Point taken Selig. The main outs on my Scarlett put out up to 109 db of dynamic range, that is the main issue here (by the way my other option was the Motu 8 pre which puts out up to 112 db). My appointment isn't until January so I'm going to pick their brains a little bit first. And according to the rating section, this mod would put me at 4.25 (which is up there with the RME, UAD, and some other high-end stuff pre-mod).

Oh, and I'm confined to USB audio interfaces at present, which narrows my field if I wanted to something high end, un-modded. That plus not having to deal with selling my Scarlett after upgrading to a newer one, plus I know it already works well on my system, make it seem like a good bet :)

Also peace of mind, not having to wonder "well what if I upgraded my interface, would that help my mixes? anymore lol

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selig
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18 Dec 2017

skie wrote:
18 Dec 2017
^Point taken Selig. The main outs on my Scarlett put out up to 109 db of dynamic range, that is the main issue here (by the way my other option was the Motu 8 pre which puts out up to 112 db). My appointment isn't until January so I'm going to pick their brains a little bit first. And according to the rating section, this mod would put me at 4.25 (which is up there with the RME, UAD, and some other high-end stuff pre-mod).

Oh, and I'm confined to USB audio interfaces at present, which narrows my field if I wanted to something high end, un-modded. That plus not having to deal with selling my Scarlett after upgrading to a newer one, plus I know it already works well on my system, make it seem like a good bet :)

Also peace of mind, not having to wonder "well what if I upgraded my interface, would that help my mixes? anymore lol
It's very likely to help your recordings, but less likely to help mixes, as always in MY experience (your's may be different). If you don't use the mic pre and analog inputs often, then it's value may be less.

Also, the difference between 109 and 112 dB dynamic range are SMALL (you're talking 3 dB here), especially if you're talking about the output. Remember analog tape machines only got 50-60 dB dynamic range - you had to manage gain staging to achieve decent responses, but it was possible. Anything over 96 dB dynamic range is EASILY workable even if you don't pay attention to levels.

It's kind of like comparing the performance of a race car to a road trip car - would you really notice the increased horsepower/torque and handling when driving at interstate speeds (or around town), and if so would you be willing to pay for that increase?

All interfaces you can buy today are excellent compared to any other time in history. The increases you're talking about with mods are incremental at best. The question to ask IMO is "what problems are you current hearing with your setup today?", and how does this mod address those issues.

You have not pointed out the issues you have with your current interface. Be careful you're not looking for some magical improvement in your skills because of an incremental increase in the specs of your interface. Similar to how it's not always a good idea to just slap on a compressor just to see if things magically improve (at least that's "free"), it's better to have a good idea of what is "wrong" with the current situation so you can best apply available resources directly to addressing the actual problem.

Or to put it another way, throwing money at a problem is only a good idea if you're sure of what the problem actually is, and if you're sure the money goes to address the specific problem at hand. What problem/issue does this particular mod address of you?
Selig Audio, LLC

skie
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18 Dec 2017

^Selig, better mix translation is my goal. Reduce the number of times I have to listen in my studio, my car and my cellphone. Again just to rule out any ill effects of a lower quality interface (I realize it may not be affecting me but I was going to upgrade my interface regardless). I have room treatment and a good monitor system. This is the last link in the chain. Again there may not be drastic audible difference, but how can one really measure how much of a role even a subtle improvement in sound can affect one's work? Maybe just a subtle gain in quality suddenly allows you to hear your compressors and effects working more clearly?

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QVprod
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18 Dec 2017

skie wrote:
18 Dec 2017
^Selig, better mix translation is my goal. Reduce the number of times I have to listen in my studio, my car and my cellphone. Again just to rule out any ill effects of a lower quality interface (I realize it may not be affecting me but I was going to upgrade my interface regardless). I have room treatment and a good monitor system. This is the last link in the chain. Again there may not be drastic audible difference, but how can one really measure how much of a role even a subtle improvement in sound can affect one's work? Maybe just a subtle gain in quality suddenly allows you to hear your compressors and effects working more clearly?
If mix translation is the goal, the question would be what about the mix isn't translating? Too much bass? Harsh highs? I don't think any interface's converters are so bad that you can't hear compression clearly. Identify what the mix problems are, and you can identify the problem. I know you said you have a treated room but what treatment was done, the size of your room, and your monitoring location in the room all play a part in what you hear a lot more than the digital conversion. I get decent mixes with my 18i20.

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selig
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18 Dec 2017

QVprod wrote:
18 Dec 2017
skie wrote:
18 Dec 2017
^Selig, better mix translation is my goal. Reduce the number of times I have to listen in my studio, my car and my cellphone. Again just to rule out any ill effects of a lower quality interface (I realize it may not be affecting me but I was going to upgrade my interface regardless). I have room treatment and a good monitor system. This is the last link in the chain. Again there may not be drastic audible difference, but how can one really measure how much of a role even a subtle improvement in sound can affect one's work? Maybe just a subtle gain in quality suddenly allows you to hear your compressors and effects working more clearly?
If mix translation is the goal, the question would be what about the mix isn't translating? Too much bass? Harsh highs? I don't think any interface's converters are so bad that you can't hear compression clearly. Identify what the mix problems are, and you can identify the problem. I know you said you have a treated room but what treatment was done, the size of your room, and your monitoring location in the room all play a part in what you hear a lot more than the digital conversion. I get decent mixes with my 18i20.
^^Great advice!

Do you have an alternate set of monitors, and a good pair of phones? Is your room sounding fantastic as is? I cannot imagine you would be having problems with mixes translating if your monitors and room are the best they can be within your budget.

I would upgrade my hardware in order to produce cleaner recordings, but to improve mixing? Not so much. I can't see how more dynamic range, or a little less noise/distortion would possibly improve mix translation!

Mix translation has been a goal for me for years. To that end, I have invested in room measuring software and a good (but inexpensive) test microphone, which allows me to fine tune my room and see what changes are helping/hurting etc. Total cost: $150, and it's paid for itself many times over IMO. Gear: Fuzzmeasure ($100), Behringer test mic ($50).

Do you have more than one pair of monitors and a switcher? That's probably the most important tool for checking mix translation IMO.

I'm about to dump some $$$ into room treatments for my new space, which is quite small by studio standards (but maybe not by NYC bedroom standards!). The room is 9' x 9.5' x 10.5' tall. Basically a cube. I'm working with GIK acoustics at present to get the proper treatments for this sized room. I will end up with well over 10 panels in all including corner traps etc. No "foam", etc. And even then, I'll have a "decent" room that will be about as good as it can get within my size (and window/door placement) restrictions.

I don't know what treatments you've installed to date, or if you had professional help in choosing/placing the treatments, but $500 could go a long way towards improving your ability to make mixes that translate well if spent on treatments IMO. Same goes for monitors, unless you already have a couple of pairs that you absolutely love and trust.

For me all studio investment is about determining what the weak link is for your needs, and bring that up to par with the rest. If in the end you feel dynamic range and system noise/distortion is the weakest link, then by all means go for it. Will be interested (and others will be as well) in hearing back in a few months to see how your mixes have/have not improved, and I sincerely hope that whatever choice you make you DO end up with better mixes!
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

skie
Posts: 253
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18 Dec 2017

I don't understand all the skepticism about me upgrading my interface lol the decision has already been made its just whether I would get a new one or do the upgrade. Thank you for all the advice though. So Selig are you saying that most consumers in the RME-grade market and better are mostly paying for a placebo effect? And yes I do have a set of A7X with sub and Yamaha HS5's hooked to big knob - and Sony headphone monitors (the common ones). And I do have extremely hyper sensitive hearing. What sounds like "not translating" to me, could very well sound OK to the next person. I'm very nit picky.

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selig
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18 Dec 2017

skie wrote:
18 Dec 2017
I don't understand all the skepticism about me upgrading my interface lol the decision has already been made its just whether I would get a new one or do the upgrade. Thank you for all the advice though. So Selig are you saying that most consumers in the RME-grade market and better are mostly paying for a placebo effect? And yes I do have a set of A7X with sub and Yamaha HS5's hooked to big knob - and Sony headphone monitors (the common ones). And I do have extremely hyper sensitive hearing. What sounds like "not translating" to me, could very well sound OK to the next person. I'm very nit picky.
Sorry if I sound skeptical - I just think that IF your issue is "mix translation", then the upgrade is not likely to help. This is based on the fact that mix translation has to do with hearing an inaccurate representation of the frequency response of the mix. Increasing signal to noise or dynamic range won't address the most common issues affecting the ability of a mix to translate!

And no, I definitely did not intend to say anything about placebo effect. I mentioned that I would update my interface if I was unhappy with the sound of the recordings made with that interface, or thought it was somehow not giving me an accurate representation of my mix. For example, if I had some ribbon or dynamic mics that were not getting enough gain, I would upgrade the preamps. If I was not happy with the headphone amp, I would upgrade. Etc.

But if my mixes are not translating, I would look to the monitors and my room. This is based on my experience mixing in world class rooms where "what you hear is what you get". For most folks, there is always room to improve the sound of the room significantly, while the hardware upgrades you speak of are what you do if you don't like the quality of your recordings, or you've done everything you can to improve the room/monitor situation and have some cash on hand to go that extra mile.

And if that's the case with your situation, I cannot see how you'd be happy going from a "2" to a "4" (or whatever the numbers were). Why not go for a 9-10 and be done with it - assuming your speakers and room are also a "10".

To put it another way, if your interface is going to be a "4", then how would you grade your monitors and room? My philosophy is to keep your upgrade level with each other as much as possible. If your room is a "4" and your monitors are a "9", then you upgrade your room to as close to a "9" as possible. This approach requires you to scale each area to be equal for your needs, meaning if everything was a "10" you'd be happy (for some this may mean cheap converters and expensive speakers, for others it could be exactly the opposite).

In the end, not sure why you made the thread if your decision was already made, but that's not for me to judge!
:)
Selig Audio, LLC

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QVprod
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18 Dec 2017

Piggy backing off Selig, it’s not skepticism. You mentioned mixes not translating. That issue is generally related to monitoring within a room. For instance too much bass in a mix is often caused by standing waves from bass response in a room. If translation is an issue it’s something you can identify. Hence the suggestions.

skie
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18 Dec 2017

OK Let me clarify - I'm not having translation issues like I was having last winter - I think I recall you 2 (Selig and QV) assisting on a crisis I was having (thank you) back then...since then my mix translation has gotten 500% better in that I'm about 90% there the first time I test it out of the studio, thanks to my hs5's and A7X's and treatment (bass traps, 2 framed panels, and auralex foam panels). I do plan on making music for the rest of my life and thought I'd look for something I could use until it became obsolete which would also be regarded as professional (I don't know any pro mixers using the Scarlett series I may be wrong?)...or at least as professional as RME and UAD line (some of those got a 4 rating and the modded Scarlett gets 4.25 on that site). BTW I use all 8 ins on the Scarlett so that upgrade would be nice. So I'm not looking at the converters as the cause for my woes but I don't know, I'm simply feeling very open to an upgrade and frankly Adam A7X with a sub, and mogami gold cables, deserve to be plugged into something nice!

As for why did I post this Selig lol, since my appointment isn't until January, (and I can get a refund until Jan 10) I am giddy with anticipation and just wanted to know if anyone else on here was hip to this, and could describe the improvement they experienced, or had any other thoughts on there experience with BLA (although many testimonials on the web already).

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