Thunderbolt3 on a Windows 7 laptop questions

[littlejam]

Hello,

I am looking to get a windows 7 laptop built. I was thinking of going Thunderbolt
and then using Thunderbolt to firewire adapter so I could still use my existing
maudio profire interface. However, I read in various places that the Thunderbolt
adapter might not be a good idea: firewire likes the TI chipset.

Is anyone successfully using Thunderbolt to firewire adapter?

If I ditch the firewire and go straight Thunderbolt
can someone recommend a good interface please.

I was looking at the focusrite claret 2pre but it looks like it is only for mac.

Thanks for your help,

j

[ScuzzyEye]

I have a Firewire interface, and my motherboard has a Via chipset, which made it perform badly. I also have a Thunderbolt port. There are very few (only one?) Thunderbolt to Firewire adapters. I got the one made by Apple. While it shows up as "Not certified for PC use," it works fine. It includes an LSI Firewire chip (while Thunderbolt and Firewire target similar uses, they are unrelated technologies).

I was surprised to see you say that the Claret range is Mac only. I knew Focusrite initially only released Mac drivers, but I knew of a beta release for Windows. But you're right the site still only has Mac drivers. I do one day hope to replace my Saffire with a Claret. The Windows drivers were available upon contacting Focusrite. You may want to do that and see what's up.

[littlejam]

Hello,

Thanks for the info. Thinking that the thunderbolt to firewire adapter wasn't going to work successfully, I started reading more about Thunderbolt.
My question now is: adapting the Thunderbolt to firewire, the interface is being used at firewire speeds (400/800), whereas a true Thunderbolt interface moves at Thunderbolt rates. I'm trying to find native Thunderbolt audio interfaces, but the few that I've found are overkill and way expensive.

The next thing is usb 3.1 interfaces...i'm still doing research...

i really like firewire...i wish it was still around

thanks for your input,

j

[ScuzzyEye]

Thunderbolt is basically PCIe over a wire. The Thunderbolt to Firewire adapter is a PCIe Firewire chip with a converter to make it work on Thunderbolt.

The one I have is indeed a Firewire 800 adapter, but my interface only needs 400. Still, 400 Mbps of bandwidth is way overkill for audio, even multi-channel (a 192 kHz, 24-bit channel only takes 4.6 Mbps). So the 20 or 40 Gbps of Thunderbolt is even more overkill. The only thing that it gets you is ultra low, virtually immeasurable, bus latency. Because at 20 Gbps, packets being scheduled on the nanosecond scale.

[littlejam]

hey,

the laptop i want to get doesn't have a way to get native firewire
i don't trust usb 2.0
native thunderbolt for windows 7 is too expensive and pretty much non-existent at this time
so i found 2 usb 3.0 interfaces (both by zoom)
the uac 2 and the uac 8
i'm liking the uac 8 because it has a lot more i/o options

i need to check with the laptop maker to see/verify that the usb 3.0 hub is on its own bus

living in nyc, i shop at b&h and they stock everything and have a good refund/exchange policy

1) get laptop and thunderbolt to firewire adapter to see if everything works clean/clear and keep firewire maudio profire interface
or
2) get the uac 8 interface with usb 3.0
or
3) throw everything in the trash and learn how to paint

thanks,

j

[TheGuyNotNamedBob]

I don't use thunderbolt, but I know that Focusrite approves FireWire to thunderbolt converters for their interfaces, if that helps.

[Ostermilk]

Thunderbolt, Firewire, USB, PCIe these things are more for the consideration of device manufacturers rather than end users who can do nothing about the technology used to bring a succesful product to market.

I always think questions such as this are akin to enquiring about how to put the cart before the horse.

I always find it more fruitful to define the requirements I want from the device in terms of performance, capability and price as the main priority, the means of attaching that chosen device to the computer, whether it be usb, firewire, thunderbolt or even a ball of string, should then define itself.

I blame this kind of marketing speak for the problem as found on the UAC 8 page:

The USB 3.0 SuperSpeed transfer protocol used by the UAC-8, with a speed of 2.0 ms roundtrip @ 96kHz / 32 samples, is ten times faster than USB 2.0 and six times faster than FireWire 800

See, that tells you something about USB 3.0 and nothing about the interface so you are fooled into thinking this is some magic bullet, yet I'd be surpised if the similarly specced and priced Babyface Pro which runs on USB 2.0 trails the Zoom in terms of real-world performance.

Compare devices not protocols and you could save yourself some nightmares and perhaps hard cash.

i'm liking the uac 8 because it has a lot more i/o options

j

Now you're on the right lines...

[gak]

Windows 7 + thunderbolt = FAIL.

They can't even get windows 10 to work proper with it.

Do yourself a favor, get an RME babyface pro and stop worrying about your audio interface. You'll thank me later.

[littlejam]

hello,

i read up on the babyface pro: very sweet
i still just don't like usb 2.0
and i like the zoom uac8 having a lot more i/o than the babyface pro

to be the most economical would be to try the thunderbolt to firewire adapter
i've never had a stutter with the maudio profire 610

it's nice when you research a product and you can't find any bad reviews: babyface pro...

my brain hurts

thanks for helping

(as far as usb 3.0: the latency thing: when i record loops from reason using the emi
it would never loop properly...it would be a couple milliseconds off
that's why i'm interested in usb 3.0 because of the superlow latency)

j

[Ostermilk]

Meanwhile in a galaxy far, far away...there is a parallel universe...

https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopi ... 7&t=445881

[gak]

I'll try one more time:

This is not for my sake.

Don't worry about usb 2.whatever, get the unit, enjoy the very low latency, the terrific sound quality, stability you always dreamed of, fantastic "totalmix" and really good preamps.

Or, keep trying to make a square peg fit into a round hole. I've been through all this.

[ScuzzyEye]

(as far as usb 3.0: the latency thing: when i record loops from reason using the emi
it would never loop properly...it would be a couple milliseconds off
that's why i'm interested in usb 3.0 because of the superlow latency)

Yes, these newer buses have very low latency for the devices plugged into them, but the devices themselves have buffers and introduce their own latency. This is why the device is more important than the bus.

[littlejam]

Hello,

at this point i trust rme's usb 2.0 drivers
the article ostermilk linked to states that rme did something
with their usb2.0 drivers making it 'more like firewire'
cool, so it is very good driver development

the last part of the article about the guy who tried the usb3 zoom interface
and then went back to usb2 said the usb3 kicked ass

the response (like gak's) don't look at the usb2 or usb3
instead, look at the performance of the device:
which makes me think that zoom has made good drivers, too
(iirc i read somewhere else where someone had complimented zoom making good drivers for their products)

so, looking at the babyface pro and the zoom uac8
i still like the uac8 because of more i/o options
the uac8 has 8 xlr/line inputs plus spdif plus adat

the babyface pro, to me, is really only a 4 channel interface
if you want to use the adat you have to purchase more hardware
and 8 channel mixer/amps are not cheap
so that puts the babyface pro for 12 channels at more than a 1000$
(probably at like 1500$)

and to show me being retarded, i want an interface with 2 separate headphone controllers

[tumar]

I'm on Mac with Focusrite Safire Pro 24 DSP, which run via firewire 400->800 cable then Apple firewire 800->thunderbolt2 converter. Everything works fine, I can't see any difference between using thunderbolt and native firewire port (I have two Macbooks Pro with native firewire ports).
But... I've read about problems with upcoming thunderbolt 3 and firewire compatibility. For example, some Presonus firewire interfaces do not work with thunderbolt 3. Some other work, but CPU spike rises to the sky. There is huge convertion between thunderbolt 3 and thunderbolt 2 needed: https://www.kanex.com/thunderbolt3/

[littlejam]

hello,

@ tumar: i'm looking at the article you linked
but i can't read/find any info on what you said about
'there is a huge convertion between thunderbolt 2 and 3"

please clarify when you get a chance

cheers,
j

[ScuzzyEye]

TB3 is clock-quadrupled from the original Thunderbolt spec. Also it's usually being delivered on a USB Type C connector, where as TB1 and TB2 were based on the Displayport connector. I don't know of any TB3 to FW adapters. The solution may be for a TB3 to TB2, to FW800 adapter chain. I can see where problems could creep in. I didn't think of that in my initial reply, as my motherboard has a TB2 port, so the conversion was more direct.

[tumar]

hello,

@ tumar: i'm looking at the article you linked
but i can't read/find any info on what you said about
'there is a huge convertion between thunderbolt 2 and 3"

please clarify when you get a chance

cheers,
j

I'm not tech-spec-guy, I wrote only what I read on many forums. Compatibility between thunderbolt 3 and 2 is much more sophisticated than, for example, between firewire 800/400 or usb3.0/2.0, where in fact it was just matter of cable. That is why one needs such big converter. I've read many unsuccesfull stories (i.e amazon user reviews), where people were not able to link thunderbolt 2 devices via adapter.

[littlejam]

hello,

i read the compatibility list for that kanex tb3 to tb2 adapter and the laptop i wanna get is approved
i plan on using the tb3 connector for a 4 drive ssd enclosure
i plan on going with the zoom uac8 usb3 interface to start
hopefully everything will work out for the best

cheers,
j

[Ostermilk]

Hello,


so, looking at the babyface pro and the zoom uac8
i still like the uac8 because of more i/o options
the uac8 has 8 xlr/line inputs plus spdif plus adat

the babyface pro, to me, is really only a 4 channel interface
if you want to use the adat you have to purchase more hardware
and 8 channel mixer/amps are not cheap
so that puts the babyface pro for 12 channels at more than a 1000$
(probably at like 1500$)

and to show me being retarded, i want an interface with 2 separate headphone controllers

See, these things along with the performance are what you ought to be considering for an audio interface. There's nothing retarded about matching your requirements to what is available within your budget and the UAC8 is sounding to me like a better fit for your particular needs.

Good luck in your quest, and to help you on your way perhaps you could ask someone with knowledge at Zoom what the realtime-latency figures are for their interfaces at a given sample rate, i.e. the time it takes for a signal to go from analogue in to analogue output as that's usually among the real-world figure we're interested in, not the ultra low figures that device manufacturers like to claim in their sales blurb just because they've actually stuck a device on a 'Superspeed' port.

Case in point is that someone recently sent me some stuff on an unbranded USB 3 thumbdrive I duly put it in a USB socket and lo, it was about 2 times slower than my trusty ol' Lexar USB 2 ones.

[littlejam]

hello,

i love the idea of talking to someone at zoom who know's real stats about the interface

so far i have the laptop picked out, the audio interface (usb3), the external hdd enclosure (thunderbolt 3 to thunderbolt 2 adapter), the studio monitors, the subwoofer...

i appreciate being able to post questions to the forum and getting different pov/suggestions/etc.

cheers,

j

[littlejam]

hello,

i found this this week,
talked to tech support: they don't know if it will have certified windows 7 drivers though
it's beautiful: it has firewire with an lsi chip that plays nicely with most firewire audio interfaces
no hdmi, but easily convertable...
not released until february 2017
high price: 275$
both mac and windows
the startech tb3 dock is windows only

cheers,
j


https://www.owcdigital.com/products/thu ... k-overview

[littlejam]

hello,

i changed the title of the thread to 'thunderbolt 3 working on windows 7'
the primary reason is to still be able to use my firewire audio interface with the minimum of converter boxes / wires
the owc listed above seems to be the best bet so far

the maudio profire 610 is only 2 units down compared to the babyface pro in terms of latency, what not
i'll try to find the article i was reading

cheers,
j

just found this, too, re: usb3.0:

In the USB 3.0 protocol, there are an extra set of signals, two additional pair of data signals. This provides a dedicated transmit and receive signal pair between two devices, just as done in SATA and PCI Express (x1) -- a "full duplex" signal protocol. This is also why USB 3.0 cables are necessary for higher speeds, and USB 3.0 devices may have different connectors (the "A" plug looks the same but contains extra signals, all of the USB 3.0 "B" plugs look different, the universal "C" plug is, of course, new, and can be used for host or target devices).

now this sounds like firewire: full duplex...

[Jmax]

hello,

i read up on the babyface pro: very sweet
i still just don't like usb 2.0
and i like the zoom uac8 having a lot more i/o than the babyface pro

to be the most economical would be to try the thunderbolt to firewire adapter
i've never had a stutter with the maudio profire 610

it's nice when you research a product and you can't find any bad reviews: babyface pro...

my brain hurts

thanks for helping

(as far as usb 3.0: the latency thing: when i record loops from reason using the emi
it would never loop properly...it would be a couple milliseconds off
that's why i'm interested in usb 3.0 because of the superlow latency)

j

I just bought the Zoom UAC-2. Arrived yesterday. I did my research and read a lot of reviews and some youtube vids. The thing with Zoom is it uses unsigned drivers. They gurantee it to work with Intel but not with ASUS in the fine print. I'm running ASUS boards. On my studio computer, I installed the Zoom drivers and it lights up but windows cannot connect the installed drivers to the Interface. I tried everything just seems to be an issue there. I was about to return but decided to test it on my media center PC which is actually a quicker chip and slightly different board also ASUS. Guess what, it worked there.

I can say the thing is pretty quick if you can get it to work. I was running before before at a buffer of 512, anything under having Pops. With say synths like Zero etc. Now I can run at 128, no issues whatsoever. I can run my heavy duty Kontakt plugins at 256, probably lighter ones at 128.

A couple things though, the FX softer it comes with is ok but I don't really dig it. It doesn't even need to be installed really but good to have it. Also the preamp on the headphones is a bit low. Workable but a bit low.

So just be careful that you can return it if it doesn't work out or is not compatible. I got it from Sweetwater, good deal but I paid up the ass in conversion to Canadian and a shipment border tax. Won't be doing that again. Overall I'm happy.

I would also highly recommend Presonus 192 USB3.. Beauty. I believe superior to the Babyface and probably cheaper if you can find a good deal.