Is there any real value in buying hardware?

Want to talk about music hardware or software that doesn't include Reason?
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Raveshaper
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Joined: 16 Jan 2015

06 Apr 2016

I have been combing through the 2500 listings in the musical instrument section of my local craigslist, when it occurred to me:

Is there any real value in buying hardware anymore?

I see lots and lots and lots of Soundcraft, Mackie, Allen & Heath, Yamaha, and Tascam mixing boards.
I see lots of hardware compressors, including one that is similar to pultec that uses tubes.
I see lots of synthesizers.
I even see an SSL 900 with DAW and computer included.

If people are selling these things, is it worth having them?
They take up space, they are often redundant, they're "old", etc.
I still want to collect quality gear and grow to incorporate analog equipment into my process, but I just wanted others' opinions on this.

I would argue that people would not seek out things like the Massive Passive if it was easily outdone by a plugin. The gear has that "something" that strictly digital VSTs just don't. But, I have been wrong many times. And plenty of people do amazing things with nothing but a laptop.
Now I'm contradicting myself. What are your thoughts?
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dioxide
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06 Apr 2016

I've been thinking through this recently, although I have no plans to go hardware.

I was looking at the new Pioneer hardware sampler as an option for live use. If you were making music using only samples (I use synth sounds) then this would be a great tool. Basically it is a computer with a built-in soundcard and MIDI interface. You get more options with a laptop but you need a third party soundcard and a well mapped MIDI controller (do they exist?). The Pioneer sampler has all this built in and will continue to work until the hardware breaks. Typically users update their computer OS often encountering problems with drivers etc.

Personally I wouldn't go down the route of real hardware for the studio. The key benefit is that the interface is usually very well suited to the job, unlike most MIDI controllers. I prefer having instant recall and the options that Reason offers and sold the hardware I had back in 2001. I've dabbled since but nothing has convinced me to go back to outboard.

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raymondh
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06 Apr 2016

I own hardware synths. Years ago I sold my synths and went "virtual" and now I'm back to a combination of hardware and software synths.

It all comes down to what you feel compelled to do.

I really missed my hardware synths. There is something about playing a real synthesizer that feels different than playing a computer running software. It is not logical especially when many synthesizers are digital and basically a dedicated music computer. But the instrument has a purpose, it has immediacy, it is tactile and it helps create a conducive environment for making music IMO.

I have retro fever so getting something that harks back to the past creates something special for me and further inspires me to use it to make music.

The guy at my local music shop told me most synths he sells get used for mucking around and most people never actually finish tracks with them, so obviously your mileage will vary. But then who cares if you finish a track if you get great satisfaction playing on a real synth.

But... I don't think hardware always sounds better than software. I really like the sound out of software synths and there are some damn good synths in the Reason environment that will more than meet most sonic requirements. And soft synths are so much easier to use than hardware too.
Let your own ears be the judge rather than buying into the academic hardware vs software or analog vs digital online debates.

My advice if you're really not sure but keen to try, is to set aside a budget for one hardware synth, then buy it second hand. Make sure it has MIDI and you can record it into Reason via your audio interface. Then set yourself an objective of making a track exclusively with that one synth (and maybe some Kong/ReDrum). That experience will either put you off forever, or it will open new doors on creativity. Unfortunately it might make you want to spend more money on hardware :)

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normen
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06 Apr 2016

Not really. :)

Theres one hard advantage of analog hardware which is it doesn't have latency. At least not more than the actual audio processing requires, e.g. an EQ only works by actually shifting the phase a bit but thats not really "latency".

Theres a lot of disadvantages to analog audio, for example noise, an abundance of "fail points" that can cause issues, a lot of power consumption, a lot of material being used to create the device, the size of the device, the initial cost, the maintenance cost and more.

A digital algorithm can - if its programmed right - emulate *any* analog audio device. After all if you can *record* analog audio in a digital system and retain its sound during playback, why would an algorithm not be able to generate that series of 1s and 0s at the output by itself? Of course its able to, depending on how much processing power you're willing to use to model the intricacies of that analog device.

Now, if you listen closely you'll hear the screams of analog aficionados all around the world screaming at their screen reading my post right now :) So why do people still use analog hardware?

For one analog audio is how audio has been done for decades and theres lots of experience and experimentation in that field. You can take a breadboard, a bunch of transistors, caps, diodes and resistors and whip together a cool distortion device for your guitar. Lots of people can tell you about what transistor to use to get a certain sound, you can play around with them and each device will give you different properties / sounds - brilliant. If you were to try and simulate that exact sound in a digital algorithm you'd have to do a LOT of research and experimentation to achieve it. So if you want "THAT" sound its easiest to just use the analog device. And as we all have been fed with the sound of analog devices on the radio since the 50s and 60s some of "THESE" sounds are simply imprinted in our brains.

Or for example if an experienced electrical engineer was to develop a new compressor or whatnot he'd use his experience in analog circuitry to create that device using analog parts and given his expertise it would certainly sound great - again its hard to translate that to the digital domain. So theres your analog compressor that lots of people love and want to buy.

Furthermore for some things it can simply be more practical to actually have real world knobs, faders etc. to be able to handle the device. That doesn't mean that the circuitry *has to* be analog, you could just as well make a digital device with knobs and faders but sometimes its just simpler to make that device analog. E.g. a simple volume knob basically just needs an opamp and two resistors/pots - or even just a pot and a resistor. If you were to make that thing digital you'd have an A/D,D/A, OpAmps, resistors, a microcontroller, a DSP chip and whatnot..

Thats imo the hard reasons why you still see analog hardware. But of course theres other reasons as well.

For musicians and audio engineers - lets face it - theres nothing like twiddling knobs, seeing VU meters wiggle, feeling the heat of the tubes in the back of your amp or turning your amp to eleven and feeling how the noise floor already makes your chest vibrate and your spine tingle in anticipation for how you'll be blown away when you hit those strings now. ;) Theres just something about these big bulky devices that makes you like them and feel "magic" in the air - even I am not immune to that (at all :)).

In the professional world you also still see a lot of analog hardware. Every big studio has the big analog SSL (or similar) console and the big racks of outboard gear for the money shots in the studio. And that is actually exactly what they're there for - to impress. :) Imagine you were to pay 1000 bucks to record some vocals in a studio. You get there and the engineer sits there with a MacBook and a USB interface - or you get there and the engineer sits behind a HUGE desk with LOADS of knobs and faders and lights and little fireworks going off above the desk - see what I'm getting at? ;)

OF COURSE you'll hear many of these studio owners claim things along the lines of "you can only get THE RIGHT sound with these, blahblahblah" but most know thats actually not true. Even cheap USB audio devices these days have better objective specs (THD, S/N ratio etc etc) than these 80s/90s technology audio desks. Some people will try and rip your head off if you tell them your Behringer USB is better than the Neve preamp they just spent 3000$ on but it objectively is - even though you might like the sound of the deficiencies of the Neve of course.

So all in all do you need analog gear? Imo if you already pose that question then the answer is an emphatic NO from my side. Even though I do own a fair bit of analog gear that I want because of THAT sound or certain features I am using a Eleven Rack on stage for my guitar. Simply because it can be easily controlled, it has full callback, no tubes that can blow, no knobs to check and reset each time I unpack it. Yes, I do use real amps, analog processors and even selfmade analog stomp boxes in the studio but mainly for the reasons I mentioned above than for the belief that they are in some way superior.

Omg, dat ramble xD Hope this helps in some way :)

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Marco Raaphorst
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06 Apr 2016

hardware sucks. although some of that stuff has a life on its own. character. it can be nice. but software is the next step. the future. all I want is that. and software alows you stuff to sound "old". software is so much more fun to me.

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decibel
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06 Apr 2016

no way jose ;) i can fit infinitely more instruments in my desktop or laptop set up that i could ever fit in my small working space if i was to rely on hardware, its easy to see how hardware could be fun, but digital is just way to convenient to ever turn back

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Olivier
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06 Apr 2016

To each his own. I like to combine both. Don't think I'll ever get rid of my analog/modular synths.
:reason: V9 | i7 5930 | Motu 828 MK3 | Win 10

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alex
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06 Apr 2016

normen wrote:Not really. :)

Theres one hard advantage of analog hardware which is it doesn't have latency. At least not more than the actual audio processing requires, e.g. an EQ only works by actually shifting the phase a bit but thats not really "latency".
....
....
I did not quote the entire post for convenience, but those are well put words, I agree with everything and I couldn't have said it better myself! :thumbs_up:
The best things happen after reading the manual. ;)
:reason: :re: :refill: :ignition:

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MarkTarlton
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Location: Santa Rosa, CA

06 Apr 2016

I would say that the best value is real hardware because

1 - you can sell it
2 - if you buy good stuff, it lasts longer than any software and will keep it's value
3 - is more fun to use!

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Chizmata
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06 Apr 2016

Raveshaper wrote:I have been combing through the 2500 listings in the musical instrument section of my local craigslist, when it occurred to me:

Is there any real value in buying hardware anymore?

I see lots and lots and lots of Soundcraft, Mackie, Allen & Heath, Yamaha, and Tascam mixing boards.
I see lots of hardware compressors, including one that is similar to pultec that uses tubes.
I see lots of synthesizers.
I even see an SSL 900 with DAW and computer included.

If people are selling these things, is it worth having them?
They take up space, they are often redundant, they're "old", etc.
I still want to collect quality gear and grow to incorporate analog equipment into my process, but I just wanted others' opinions on this.

I would argue that people would not seek out things like the Massive Passive if it was easily outdone by a plugin. The gear has that "something" that strictly digital VSTs just don't. But, I have been wrong many times. And plenty of people do amazing things with nothing but a laptop.
Now I'm contradicting myself. What are your thoughts?
its simply a matter of preference nowadays. yes there might be slight differences in sound, but nothing that is "better" or "worse". of course its more fun to turn real analogue knobs, but then it also limits you cause you cant handle the devices as freely as you could in reason (unless you wanna spend a couple hundred bucks for every copy/paste or new fx route). then again, limiting yourself is a great source of creativity.

if i had the money, id probably have a very versatile hardware synth which has oscillators but can also process samples - but just because its more fun to turn the knobs and i like to limit myself. right now i use software only and theres nothing wrong about it, reason is as versatile a no hardware setup is ever gonna be unless you are a multi-millionaire.

avasopht
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06 Apr 2016

There's the psychological aspect, which cannot be replicated in software whatsoever!!

Hearing the sounds of a Korg synth is one thing, but feeling the presence of the physical device consuming room space and feeling heavy when lifted - you can't help but think about it differently.

Your mind simply experiences hardware differently, ... that and the difference of interface.

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Loque
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06 Apr 2016

Is a instrument like guitar or trompet hardware? Is turning knobs using hardware? A midi keyboard, a keyboard and mouse is hardware? Is creating sounds with some strange things using hardware? If i didnt suck in playing hardware, had the space for all that stuff and had the money to buy it, i would use more hardware.
Reason12, Win10

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O1B
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07 Apr 2016

Caveats to that statement, my Friend: "Software" SCREAMS for hardware…. See: Traktor, Reason, Komplete, Ableton.., iOS...

Years in the DAW… mousing around on 1/2 ass'd MIDI. ... Months on Hardware. Hooked on Hardware!
Ill track in the DAW… sure…. eventually… but, there's nothing like staying loose with a Fully Developed Song. (Maschine - SW w/HW)
ex. Tempo on the 1st Drum groove 90BPM… 2nd drum groove 89.3… or whatever - or, try 2nd Drums beginning 3-300ms later - or on the 5th measure instead on the first. You never know…

But, IMO it's tedious to do once in the DAW timeline..
does it make a difference…?

Marco Raaphorst wrote:hardware sucks…. but software is the next step. the future. all I want is that. and software alows you stuff to sound "old". software is so much more fun to me.
To each his own.
HW to consider: AIRA, Etribe2, Pioneer/NI DJ Rig, ArturiaBrutes, Wavedrum, VDrums, … Real Instruments and Synths
i just picked up the KP3+… should've been using this Beast years Ago

madmacman
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07 Apr 2016

At least on the "Synth gear" side I reverted back to hardware over the past years. Turning knobs with touchpad or mouse wasn't compelling and I was more and more reluctant turning on my computer to make music. Besides some "old" stuff such as an original Yamaha DX7, I have build a complete Eurorack modular system during the past 3 years, along with some other analog stuff such as a Moog or Doepfer DarkEnergy. But also digital synths such as Waldorf Blofeld.

Even for the sequencers I tend to prefer more hardware, e.g. Arturia BeatStep. And I consider buying a Midi sequencer like good old Roland MC-50.

I'm now close to 50 and have the money to buy all the toys I couldn't afford when I was a student. I've grown up with hardware and maybe this explains my stranger anxiety to music software.

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mcatalao
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07 Apr 2016

Imho as prossessing hardware is concerned my take is that if you can, get the best mic pre amp, and the best monitor chain you can afford. Other than that, I cannot think of any absurdly strong reason to use a hardware analogue compressor versus the same in its virtual version. I've been completely in the box for the last 10 years using several different daws and most processing stuff I bought has been stopped and hardly ever used.

Additionally, out of the box processing is messy makes you do multiple A/D an D/A jumps deteriorating audio and inducing noise. And though consoles still look like magical devices from outer space you either have something exquisite with flying faders or you lose recall capabilities and working with multiple projects is a mess....

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elwoodblues914C5
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12 Apr 2016

As far as I'm concerned,there is real value in owning a Kurzweil keyboard(primarily due to it's V.A.S.T. synth engine,which is not available in a PC software format.)
I would not...however,consider anything from the PC3 series,as their built in sequencers are tedious to work with(especially given the absurdly small display screens.)
I believe(if memory serves)...that Kurzweil's Forte series,has the ability display their program presets as VST's,in a DAW(which in my mind,is where the real value comes into play,regarding hardware!)

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Faastwalker
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12 Apr 2016

My wife doesn't know if I've bought software because there isn't a physical new item on my desktop. Not so with hardware, obviously. I can get away with buying new software, I can't with hardware because she would see it & complain. It literally comes down to this for me currently!

But I really want to explore EuroRack in some capacity. I'm really excited by this. A lot of other hardware we're seeing doesn't appeal much at all. If it's something I can do in the box this is usually favorable as it's cheaper, more accessible & easy to hide from preying eyes! :D

groggy1
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15 Apr 2016

Faastwalker wrote:My wife doesn't know if I've bought software because there isn't a physical new item on my desktop. Not so with hardware, obviously. I can get away with buying new software, I can't with hardware because she would see it & complain. It literally comes down to this for me currently!

But I really want to explore EuroRack in some capacity. I'm really excited by this. A lot of other hardware we're seeing doesn't appeal much at all. If it's something I can do in the box this is usually favorable as it's cheaper, more accessible & easy to hide from preying eyes! :D
Ok, I thought I was the only one who uses software for this reason. I think this is the real reason why software has grown in popularity.

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Faastwalker
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15 Apr 2016

groggy1 wrote:
Faastwalker wrote:My wife doesn't know if I've bought software because there isn't a physical new item on my desktop. Not so with hardware, obviously. I can get away with buying new software, I can't with hardware because she would see it & complain. It literally comes down to this for me currently!

But I really want to explore EuroRack in some capacity. I'm really excited by this. A lot of other hardware we're seeing doesn't appeal much at all. If it's something I can do in the box this is usually favorable as it's cheaper, more accessible & easy to hide from preying eyes! :D
Ok, I thought I was the only one who uses software for this reason. I think this is the real reason why software has grown in popularity.
Exactly. In the box my foot! Out of sight out of mind is the real reason behind the exponential growth of audio software. Nobody would be using software if they could get away with buying hardware. You see all those people with massive modular / Eurorack systems? They are either single to start with or divorced! Nobody married has more than a few bits of hardware unless they are professionals.

Wife: 'is that a new thing in that Reason software you use?'.
Me: 'don't be daft. You can't just ADD new things into Reason!'.

End of story. Can you imagine the hardware version of this?

Wife: 'what the hell's that new box on the desktop?'.
Me: 'how the devil did that get there?!!'.

It's a problem.
Last edited by Faastwalker on 30 Apr 2018, edited 1 time in total.

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moofi
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28 Apr 2016

Simple answer :puf_smile:
Created with a Eurorack Modular, specifically an analogue oscillator (Thomas Henry 555-VCO) and two analogue filters in series (one based on the design of an MS-20 + one WASP filter):

https://hearthis.at/moofi/psi-bursts/

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moofi
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28 Apr 2016


yeahright31
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28 Apr 2016

I find with hardware I gotta set challenges for myself otherwise it sits there while I just am happy to use Reason standalone.
Like I say to myself- alright my challenge is to create 2 beats using only this synth.
Then other times I've just gone bonkers trying to make one huge crazy sound and I record it and bring it into Reason.
At the moment i'm really in need of an Audio Interface that will have at least 4 inputs and work with Mac- El Crapitan. Then I can have all set up and ready for use anytime in Reason.

For a longtime I've been using some cheap Audio interfaces that have 2 inputs and since then hardware my setup has expanded and computer upgraded-
My knowledge for using this gear has increased too. I have a LG Video Cam and a Zoom handheld and even a old school tape recorder and it's been an weird experiment every time I wanna bring my recordings into Reason.

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eXode
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05 May 2016

Having come full circle through software, hardware, and then back to fully software again I have the following to say.

In general, the difference between software and hardware is your approach to it and the way you interact with the instrument/gear (applies for anything really, not only synthesizers or effects). This might be an inspiration in itself.

I think the best question, regardless of it's software or hardware, is: Does it inspire me to make music? If the answer is "Yes", then there is your value (imho). :)

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XysteR
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31 May 2016

The only hardware I kept and will never sell is my Virus Ti2 desktop. Everything else got sold.

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marcuswitt
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01 Jun 2016

My answer to that question is this: It really depends on several different things if there's any value in buying hardware, such as:

1) In which field of audio production do you work, i.e. music recording, music mixing, audio post production for film or TV, field recording, Foley recording, Radio or TV broadcasting, etc.?

2) based on 1) How does the quickest, most cost and time effective as well as most efficient workflow look like in that particular field you're working in?

3) Do you consider mixing control boards (Mackie Control, Avid S6, etc.) as hardware as such? If yes, then I find such things very helpful.

4) Is it economically useful and affordable to invest in real hardware (mixing console, outboard gear)?

5) Which kind of 'value' is the most important one to you?
Economic value? Ergonomic value? Sonic value? 'Fashion' value? Value in terms of overall workflow improvement? Or even collector's value?

These questions above are just a few ones you could ask in order to find your own individual answer, I think.

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