In the market for a new soundcard to replace Balance

[EnochLight]

So, in light of my recent bumps with Balance and a general desire to improve latency, I'm in the market for a new USB sound card. I considered Thunderbolt, but I'm on a PC and I don't think my Asus Sabertooth Z77 is compatible with the add-on cards, plus - USB just works for me. My question is, what interface are you guys using out there?

I'm looking to get an average of 3 ms latency at 44.1 Khz if possible, and I've seen a few advertised as such (Arturia's AudioFuse is one). Does anyone have any USB audio interfaces that they're using on Windows with rockstar latency?

https://www.arturia.com/audiofuse/overview

[CharlyCharlzz]

I was going to say AudioFuse so.......... , maybe the new Babyface PRO from RME ???

[EnochLight]

So... no PC users here using a pro USB sound card???!!! HELP!

Charlie - are you using an AudioFuse or Babyface Pro?

[normen]

If you're going for low latency don't go for USB.

[groggy1]

If you're going for low latency don't go for USB.

Agreed. There are a few usb sound cards that have well written drivers, but in general you'll get lower latency from:
Pci card, FireWire, thunderbolt


I bought a focusrite usb sound card, but returned it since I couldn't get latency near 3ms. I got a FireWire focusrite instead, and it's the best decision I made on my music computer. You'll need a FireWire pci express card, but that's very easy to get for pc. Recommend you get the exact FireWire card recommended by focusrite for best results. Let me know if you need a link for that.


Extra bonus on the focusrite sound card: it lets you easily route audio between daws. So using vsts in reason is a breeze.

[EnochLight]

Thunderbolt is not an option (I'm on a PC and the motherboard is not compatible with add-on cards, to my knowledge). I'll consider FireWire, but it pains me to do so. As far as USB, Auria seems to have achieved 3ms latency with their AudioFuse. I'm just looking for more real-world user experience out there.

[groggy1]

Thunderbolt is not an option (I'm on a PC and the motherboard is not compatible with add-on cards, to my knowledge). I'll consider FireWire, but it pains me to do so. As far as USB, Auria seems to have achieved 3ms latency with their AudioFuse. I'm just looking for more real-world user experience out there.

Btw, i tried to do thunderbolt too (since I was getting a new pc at same time), but it's a real pain on pc. Even if you get a supported motherboard (not many out there), you have to deal with drivers that are not prime time yet. I have no idea how many people are using thunderbolt focusrite successfully on pc. But i couldn't find many when I searched.

Would love to hear if anyone on Pc here has thunderbolt.


Anyway enochligh, good luck with your search - it's always a pain when you switch audio cards! I was happy with my audiophile2496 for 12 years - but new pcs don't have full size pci slots, so had to begrudgingly switch.

[Ostermilk]

If latency is 'mission critical' as Normen says you don't want to be looking at USB interfaces.

Having said that there are plenty of USB units with usable latency figures if you are planning on tracking through the DAW. Additionally I doubt any manufacturers claims for latency figures, unless I see a figure which represents the full round trip Analogue in to Analogue out measured by something such as VMG-01 as plainly most claimed figures are pure fiction.

Thunderbolt is a non-starter for PC audio interfaces and beside you already get direct access to the PCIe bus, Thunderbolt on a pc (for audio at least) is just adding another layer of complication in order to access PCIe and more importantly it limits your choice of avialble units that already do access the PCIe bus.

Look at the RME PCIe units if low-latency really is critical as the AIO and particularly the AES units are blisteringly fast. Likewise an RME Babyface over USB is going to be around the top of the LLP list for USB.

Remember though for tracking a figure of around 6ms is more realistic for a USB unit and will not only be perfectly usable for tracking it will take 3ms off the best figures I've seen out of a Balance interface. I run a Roland fully USB powered unit that was half the discounted price of Balance and it runs lovely just tipping 6ms measured RTL 48k @ 64 samples buffer and nobody who's tracked through my rig to date has ever mentioned being troubled by latency, but then I'm only tracking guitar and vox at once normally it becomes a bigger problem the more you want to scale up from there.

[EnochLight]

If latency is 'mission critical' as Normen says you don't want to be looking at USB interfaces.

Having said that there are plenty of USB units with usable latency figures if you are planning on tracking through the DAW. Additionally I doubt any manufacturers claims for latency figures, unless I see a figure which represents the full round trip Analogue in to Analogue out measured by something such as VMG-01 as plainly most claimed figures are pure fiction.

Thunderbolt is a non-starter for PC audio interfaces and beside you already get direct access to the PCIe bus, Thunderbolt on a pc (for audio at least) is just adding another layer of complication in order to access PCIe and more importantly it limits your choice of avialble units that already do access the PCIe bus.

Look at the RME PCIe units if low-latency really is critical as the AIO and particularly the AES units are blisteringly fast. Likewise an RME Babyface over USB is going to be around the top of the LLP list for USB.

Remember though for tracking a figure of around 6ms is more realistic for a USB unit and will not only be perfectly usable for tracking it will take 3ms off the best figures I've seen out of a Balance interface.

Thanks. If I use Balance at 96 Khz, I can hit 3 ms latency. I just don't compose or mix at 96 Khz (system can't handle large projects), so 44.1 it is for me. I'll consider a PCIe audio interface over FireWire, so that's definitely in the running. Was just hoping to see some more USB options (and hoping some peeps here could offer real-world feedback on their own systems). Alas, it looks like I might be asking for too much.

[normen]

Yep, anything below 8ms is pretty good for a USB interface, anything below 4ms is outright lies (as oster hinted, you can use the VMG to check your actual roundtrip). And even if you can get low, you won't with multiple tracks and processing on top. USB doesn't have DMA or processing on the controller, everything is done "manually" on the CPU so even if you get low you'll have to configure your computer to its utmost peak performance and leave out almost any other hardware to maintain that low latency consistently.

[Ostermilk]

Thanks. If I use Balance at 96 Khz, I can hit 3 ms latency.

Where are you getting that figure from?

Use this;

http://www.oblique-audio.com/free/rtlutility

Route an analogue out to an analogue in and set it up exactly how you like Reason to run, as it's easier to getter a better figure than you'd ever use in a real world situation.

For example I can get a readout of 4.3ms with a 48 sample buffer but in reality in order not to get pops and clicks I need to use a minimum of a 64 samples buffer so in reality @48k and 64 samples I'm getting.

261 samples
5.438 ms

So I don't quote as low as I can go as it would be pointless I always quote as low as I can use.

[EnochLight]

Yep, anything below 8ms is pretty good for a USB interface, anything below 4ms is outright lies (as oster hinted, you can use the VMG to check your actual roundtrip)..

Yep, I vaguely remember having a similar discussion with you about this when VMG came out years ago and I was testing Balance.

Thanks. If I use Balance at 96 Khz, I can hit 3 ms latency.

Where are you getting that figure from?

My ASIO control panel.

To be clear guys, I'm aware of the added time that the OS slaps on as well as the trouble with USB latency. My purpose for this thread was really just to (hopefully) get some other users who actually own and are using a USB audio interface to give me some real-world feedback.

[Theo.M]

Enoch... one thing I am not 100% getting.. are you saying you want 3 milliseconds TOTAL roundtrip latency at 44.1 khz, as in true RTL inclusive of all converter latency etc?

Or do you want a 3ms OUTPUT latency to play RE's? (in other words 3ms latency from the time you hit the KB to the time you hear the sound).

The former is not possible even with the best protocols and drivers at 44.1khz.. even pro tools HD native isn't that low and that's a 3.5K interface LOL, my UAD apollo8 thunderbolt is no where near that low at 32 samples and 44.1khz, and so on.

NOT going through the DAW then yes, the uad is that low going through it's own console. Which is what i suspect arturia are talking about with audiofuse.. not monitoring through the DAW...

The latter, ie low output latency, is achievable with quite a few usb interfaces.

BTW the best, most stable, low latency usb driver you will find on windows, is RME. If you want low latency and rock solid stability, and you don't need a huge amount of I/O, spend the extra cash and get the babyface pro.

ALSO.. UAD are releasing this:
http://www.uaudio.com/interfaces/apollo-twin-usb.html

you won't need to monitor through reason at all for recording external vocals and instruments, and the OUTPUT latency to play RE instruments is also low. Being able to monitor through UAD reverbs, pre amps, comps, etc.. is just divine !

[tronam]

Enoch... one thing I am not 100% getting.. are you saying you want 3 milliseconds TOTAL roundtrip latency at 44.1 khz, as in true RTL inclusive of all converter latency etc?

Or do you want a 3ms OUTPUT latency to play RE's? (in other words 3ms latency from the time you hit the KB to the time you hear the sound).

The former is not possible even with the best protocols and drivers at 44.1khz.. even pro tools HD native isn't that low and that's a 3.5K interface LOL, my UAD apollo8 thunderbolt is no where near that low at 32 samples and 44.1khz, and so on.

NOT going through the DAW then yes, the uad is that low going through it's own console. Which is what i suspect arturia are talking about with audiofuse.. not monitoring through the DAW...

The latter, ie low output latency, is achievable with quite a few usb interfaces.

BTW the best, most stable, low latency usb driver you will find on windows, is RME. If you want low latency and rock solid stability, and you don't need a huge amount of I/O, spend the extra cash and get the babyface pro.

ALSO.. UAD are releasing this:
http://www.uaudio.com/interfaces/apollo-twin-usb.html

you won't need to monitor through reason at all for recording external vocals and instruments, and the OUTPUT latency to play RE instruments is also low. Being able to monitor through UAD reverbs, pre amps, comps, etc.. is just divine !

I've been settling for cheaper interfaces for years, but I'm probably going to finally bite the bullet, get an RME and be done with it. I had the thunderbolt UAD Apollo Twin for a few weeks and was surprised by how unstable it was at low latencies. It could barely handle buffer sizes of 256 samples before breaking up, something that was never an issue with my UR22. I'm hopeful that it was just poor timing on my part with regards to El Capitan and immature device drivers, but I didn't want to take the chance and returned it.

[Ostermilk]

My purpose for this thread was really just to (hopefully) get some other users who actually own and are using a USB audio interface to give me some real-world feedback.

That's indeed why I was comparing my own real world figures with those likely misleading figures normally quoted.

The figures I gave are in fact the figures I track through Reason with regularly all on a self-powered USB 2 port so it's completely portable.

[EnochLight]

Enoch... one thing I am not 100% getting.. are you saying you want 3 milliseconds TOTAL roundtrip latency at 44.1 khz, as in true RTL inclusive of all converter latency etc?

Or do you want a 3ms OUTPUT latency to play RE's? (in other words 3ms latency from the time you hit the KB to the time you hear the sound).

The former is not possible even with the best protocols and drivers at 44.1khz.. even pro tools HD native isn't that low and that's a 3.5K interface LOL, my UAD apollo8 thunderbolt is no where near that low at 32 samples and 44.1khz, and so on.

NOT going through the DAW then yes, the uad is that low going through it's own console. Which is what i suspect arturia are talking about with audiofuse.. not monitoring through the DAW...

The latter, ie low output latency, is achievable with quite a few usb interfaces.

BTW the best, most stable, low latency usb driver you will find on windows, is RME. If you want low latency and rock solid stability, and you don't need a huge amount of I/O, spend the extra cash and get the babyface pro.

ALSO.. UAD are releasing this:
http://www.uaudio.com/interfaces/apollo-twin-usb.html

you won't need to monitor through reason at all for recording external vocals and instruments, and the OUTPUT latency to play RE instruments is also low. Being able to monitor through UAD reverbs, pre amps, comps, etc.. is just divine !

Greetings Theo - good to see you back around these parts! The 3 ms latency is what was reported in my ASIO control panel (I realize there is added milliseconds from the OS, round trip, etc).

That UAD Apollo Twin USB looks totally bad ass - and it's USB 3.0 (bonus!)... but holy crap - it's almost $900 USD for a 2-mic input soundcard. Ugh... Will definitely consider the RME stuff, though.

The figures I gave are in fact the figures I track through Reason with regularly all on a self-powered USB 2 port so it's completely portable.

Cool. So which USB 2 audio interface are you using again? Will check that out too!

I had the thunderbolt UAD Apollo Twin for a few weeks and was surprised by how unstable it was at low latencies. It could barely handle buffer sizes of 256 samples before breaking up, something that was never an issue with my UR22. I'm hopeful that it was just poor timing on my part with regards to El Capitan and immature device drivers, but I didn't want to take the chance and returned it.

Ewwwww... well that's disconcerting. I wonder if they improved things with the Apollo Twin USB on Windows? It does bother me that they're still only supporting Windows 7 and 8.1 (and supposedly "hot on the tails" for Windows 10... which I need). Windows 10 has been out officially for 6 months, this I realize... but come on UAD!!!

[tronam]

Ewwwww... well that's disconcerting. I wonder if they improved things with the Apollo Twin USB on Windows? It does bother me that they're still only supporting Windows 7 and 8.1 (and supposedly "hot on the tails" for Windows 10... which I need). Windows 10 has been out officially for 6 months, this I realize... but come on UAD!!!

I rarely hear any complaints about UAD interfaces, so I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. El Capitan and Windows 10 are pretty much on the same release cycle and it's likely they still haven't fully optimized their drivers for both OSes.

[jengstrom]

Balance analog input to analog output (roundtrip) latencies via Reason are typically:

On Mac:

44100, 64; 7.79 ms
44100, 128; 10.69 ms
44100, 256; 16.49 ms
44100, 512; 28.10 ms

96000, 64; 5.07 ms
96000, 128; 6.41 ms
96000, 256; 9.07 ms
96000, 512; 14.41 ms

On Windows:

44100, 64; 10.02 ms
44100, 128; 12.07 ms
44100, 256; 18.03 ms
44100, 512; 31.02 ms

96000, 64; 7.36 ms
96000, 128; 7.36 ms
96000, 256; 12.36 ms
96000, 512; 17.36 ms

(Measured using Ploytec Latenc-O-Meter.)

[Ostermilk]

Thanks Jengstrom.

Always good to hear your input.

[normen]

(Measured using Ploytec Latenc-O-Meter.)

Love that thing, great to check digital desks, wireless lines etc. Always keep it with me in my "utility bag".

[4filegate]

(_ _) http://www.reasontalk.com/viewtopic.php ... t=iconnect

[Ostermilk]

Cool. So which USB 2 audio interface are you using again? Will check that out too!

I use one of these, it's been around awhile now so theres probably others that offer similar or better bang for buck these days. Windows 10 drivers arrive via Windows update and I've never had issue with it, mostly I forget it's there which is a feature I like from an interface.

https://www.roland.co.uk/products/quad-capture/

[Theo.M]

just FWIW, with thundebrolt here the apollo is stable at 32 samples playing heavy projects.. Haven't nor will touch el capitan though until the next major OSX is out. I'm on yosemite 10.10.5.

Also, the twin usb3 real world is babyface pro price, they are direct competitors. I paid 749 for my twin duo thunderbolt. (i use it for the big monitor and function knob, basically as a desktop controller for the apollo 8, as well as an extra 8 adat inputs and 2 dsps - for those who don't know I'm 99% hardware synth these days so need tons of inputs and have the adats maxed out as well as the apollos).

You could save even more by going for the solo, which still let's you use the console for ULL monitoring and a guitar amp, comp and verb.

But if you use any of the unison mic pre's that won't leave room for much on the solo.

[CharlyCharlzz]

So... no PC users here using a pro USB sound card???!!! HELP!

Charlie - are you using an AudioFuse or Babyface Pro?

none , I only dream I would ....

I dont even bother using a real sound card , I use VT-3 sometimes LOL

[CharlyCharlzz]

still audiofuse is very versatile IMHO , so much options and 3ms latency is cool , it got direct monitoring with a fader to switch from zero latency direct to 3ms computer out etc...
now for PC latency at less then 3ms is hard to get .

but I think the (Flat Frequency Response) îs maybe one of the best thing on this .