anyone using Har-bal 3?

Want to talk about music hardware or software that doesn't include Reason?
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jappe
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Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 23 Mar 2015

Thinking about purchasing but it is a bit pricey.
Would love to see if any Reasoners find this useful?
Or is there some cheaper set of REs that essentially can do what har-bal does faster and better

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Benedict
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Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 23 Mar 2015

I don't think I've ever seen anything like this before. While it is indeed a clever idea I wonder if it is really any sort of improvement over the spectrum analyzer we already have in R7+. If you need something more accurate then I assume a wave editor would do to view.

Personally I would rather adjust this sort of thing in the mix at the instrument level instead of warping the whole mix. Sadly the track in his film is awful to start with so it just transitions though different stages of awful. That said seeing he only has a single wave file he does end up with changes. 

The software also seems rather old now (no dates on site so I couldn't tell when V3 arrived) and overall looks clunky compared to modern design.

Anyone every used this? Selig perhaps...?

:)

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jappe
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Post 24 Mar 2015

I noticed there's a manual on the Har Bal site too; I guess I should read that.
http://www.har-bal.com/wp-content/uploa ... Manual.pdf

Tbh there's still so very much for me to learn (and practice) about mixing so perhaps I should focus on not being so impatient with my mixes and put some effort into it before I start to think about mastering tools. (Though it would be nice to have an RE with two buttons: MIX and MASTER...)

I think I need to reassess my mixing workflow. I often find myself reluctant to change anything I've already done; don't wanna risk making it worse and finding out a couple days later.

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Benedict
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Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 25 Mar 2015

jappe wrote:perhaps I should focus on not being so impatient with my mixes and put some effort into it before I start to think about mastering tools. (Though it would be nice to have an RE with two buttons: MIX and MASTER...)

I think I need to reassess my mixing workflow. I often find myself reluctant to change anything I've already done; don't wanna risk making it worse and finding out a couple days later.
This is the best way. You cannot EQ or Filter in something that is not there no matter what the marketing may say.

In many ways mixing is far easier than most people think. Forget all the tricks people rabbit on about in forums and focus on getting a nice balance of the instruments to make your piece sound inviting. That is all. 

This is me rattling on about the big picture of mixing

http://benedictroffmarsh.com/2012/12/02 ... -mix-well/

Once you have that feel then you can start to finesse with mixing tool, techniques and tricks - but only as they are needed to solve a problem. This article may give you bit of help on how to EQ a mix

http://benedictroffmarsh.com/2015/01/24 ... ce-mixing/

:)

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jappe
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Post 25 Mar 2015

Thank's for the inspiration when sharing your experience Benedict.
Very nice advice performed in a great humorous way!

I will keep your advice in mind. This one is a great thing to never forget:
"Recorded music is an illusion. Just as a painting isn’t the subject of the painting, what comes out the speakers is a set of pointers that the listener’s brain turns back into hip, sad, bouncy, bassy etc"

A few years ago I had the idea to use subliminal frequency to modify the mood of the listener(you know, putting one sine frequency X in left ear and another frequency X+Y where the frequency diff is supposed to do different things with your brain (and it actually does - the brain struggles with equaling the frequencies: if you have a 2Hz frequency diff you will hear amplitude modulation when listening in stereo - but in left OR right ear you hear obviously no amplitude modulation)). Perhaps I should give that a try again, if that works it's a great tool in the toolbox of creating illusions with music :crazy:


Tbh I've been quite focused on analyzing what I do from a technical point of view. 
That can be great too, but it easily gets complicated, and that's when I tend to rush things. 
I hate tech headache!

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Benedict
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Location: Gold Coast, Australia

Post 25 Mar 2015

Thanks

Sorry to say but Binaural Beats are probably not going to improve your music as study seems to show that they (at best) have placebo effect. When proper double blind studies were performed no difference was found at all in brainwave activity (and brain activity was found on a plastic head).

If you want to alter mood then use the time honored methods with Key (A#, B cubed etc), Harmony (how the notes sound together), Progression (up, down), Tone (bright, dark) and Space (dense, open).

It is too tempting to think that tricks are the solution. There are no tricks, only reality. Create a good story and make that in music. Mix and master it so that listeners can hear what you are saying and that is all you can do.

The rest is in the area of fashion and marketing. If I made the world's best relaxation record but put a picture of a gore-soaked zombie on the cover then I would probably make no sales (except to a few Goths). The expectation is broken. People make average to poor relaxation records but get a shiny computer-generated image and the Suburban-Hippies empty their pockets in a rush to be Jones.

:)

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jappe
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Post 25 Mar 2015

I should read up on studies then!
I do notice that studies some times tend to be taken as the whole truth, just like subjective impressions. What's right one year can be extremely wrong or even dangerous the next year.
Scientists are magicians and guesswork-engineers too sometimes :-)

Read
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Joined: 15 Feb 2015

Post 26 Mar 2015

As a long time Har-Bal user I can say that this is a very useful software. Offline and entire-file analysis with Har-Bal ( versus "flashing" real time analysis ) is much more accurate and easier to understand. True, you must learn, how Har-Bal is working and yes - the old-fashioned appearance might not please everybody.

Every single track as well as complete mix mostly contains some parasite frequencies. Har-Bal helps identify and correct them.

I hope that my English was understood :-)

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jappe
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Post 28 Mar 2015

Hello Read,

Thank's for sharing your experience!
I've decided to use what I have for now to take a step forward with my mixing.
I'm currently experimenting with the Carve RE for spectral mixing, searching for best-practice ways to use it.



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Tincture
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Post 28 Mar 2015

I've had Har-Bal for sometime and upgraded to Har-Bal 3 when it came out (quite a while ago).

I don't use it so much now but do like to take a look to see how the song as a whole averages across the spectrum. I've listened to Giles enough now that I try to trust my ears over what I see but it still interests me to take a look (and occasionally go back into a song to fix (try a different level/EQ/comp) something or rarer still do a little fix in Har-Bal).

I also really like it's (upward) compression method (similar in theory to Selig's Leveler from what I can tell). It def. has differing results for certain types of music, but can be a nice way to master if used subtley.

I bought it originally before I had monitors as I thought I'd maybe beable to "see" my way to improving mixes and yes, occasionally it would help me tame some bad stuff, but on the whole (especially as you're affecting the whole song) what I would do visually imagining it would translate to being an improvement sonically really was never very reliable and could quite often sound worse.

When I do use it now (to change frequency characteristics) I follow their advice and cut either sides of peaks rather than cutting the peak itself.

Sounds like you've decided against it anyway, but maybe others might have some interest in what I had to say?

Flandersh
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Location: Norway

Post 28 Mar 2015

jappe wrote:I should read up on studies then!
I do notice that studies some times tend to be taken as the whole truth, just like subjective impressions. What's right one year can be extremely wrong or even dangerous the next year.
Scientists are magicians and guesswork-engineers too sometimes :-)
Studies should always be looked at critical. So that said, there exist many a study in support of brainwave entrainment, and, as said, possibly against it. To the extent one want to use binaural beats one have to decide upon the different studies oneself, taking into account the research design, possible bias etc.
"The modern belief in progress could emerge only on the basis of a new conception of the workings of Reason in the world" (Melzer, 2004).

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jappe
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Post 30 Mar 2015

jappe wrote:I should read up on studies then!
I do notice that studies some times tend to be taken as the whole truth, just like subjective impressions. What's right one year can be extremely wrong or even dangerous the next year.
Scientists are magicians and guesswork-engineers too sometimes :-)
Flandersh wrote:
Studies should always be looked at critical. So that said, there exist 
Flandersh wrote:many a study
Flandersh wrote: in support of brainwave entrainment, and, as said, possibly against it. To the extent one want to use binaural beats one have to decide upon the different studies oneself, taking into account the research design, possible bias etc.
Thank's a lot for those links!

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Whoopdee
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Post 31 Mar 2015

Har-bal is the best way to visually see your entire mix. If I feel the need to make many EQ changes in Har-bal, it means I have to go back in my DAW and fiz the mix. It's my favorite EQ of all time, been using it for over 5 years now.

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Leighbeater
Posts: 150
Joined: 16 Jan 2015

Post 31 Mar 2015

Yeah I like HarBal, mind you this is from a guy that uses headphones exclusively, I like the visual feedback

There is another good eq that takes snapshots by Meldaproductions

Mike Senior from SOS got me unto these EQs

HarBal customer support is excellent

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