You can't make this stuff up: Audiophile Ethernet Cables…

[Ostermilk]

I was looking for an example of a cable that was unidirectional, which is what you described in your earlier posts - any examples come to mind?

I have many cables with convertors inside, usb, hdmi and similar stuff.

But it still doesn't matter which way you plug the low-pass cable in, it will have the same effect on the audio.

Cable is an RC filter itself. If it is asymmetrical in resistance or capacity throughout its length, it will give different response.

This is an ethernet cable, the standard for two way network data.  It doesn't care about the direction of travel, packets of data get sent down it in either direction which are validated by a checksum.

You can send several simulatineous streams of video plus audio down it in both directions without a single byte of the transmitted data being lost or suffering any kind of interference just like you can on any $10 worth of ethernet cable.

[orthodox]

Because what would you plug it into?

High impedance line output to headphone.

[Ostermilk]

Because what would you plug it into?

High impedance line output to headphone.

You could if you wanted to be pedantic about it think up all sorts of uni-directional applications, even a standard UK mains cable will create spectacular results if you were to wire it up the wrong way round.

The point is this particularlar 4 grand cable os claiming to work better one way than the other when it's an ethernet cable, designed for simultaneous two-way data communication.

Can you see why that in itself is funny?

My internet connection comprises of 3 to 4 miles of 4 strand copper wire so how is terminating that with 4k's worth of ethernet cable going to improve matters?

It isn't because even given that mileage of copper wire and an additional manky old ADSL filter to seperate out the phone signal, I still get 100% data integrity anyway.

[EnochLight]

For reference:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/th ... post-15412

[orthodox]

Can you see why that in itself is funny?

Yes I laughed with everybody else.
It is just the discussion going OT.

[CharlyCharlzz]

if I plug it the wrong way I Wonder if the music will play in reverse ?........sayed the blond chick

[ScuzzyEye]

Cable is an RC filter itself. If it is asymmetrical in resistance or capacity throughout its length, it will give different response.

Yes, a cable does have resistance, and capacitance, but if they exist in any amount where the changes to the signal are non-linear*, you should get a different cable.

But as for for asymmetrical through-out, that only would matter if you cut the cable in half, and measured each piece. A series of filters applied to alternating current has the same response regardless of order.


*EDIT: I should say, in the audible range. If you're sending RF down a speaker wire, then you're going to have trouble.

[Ostermilk]

Cable is an RC filter itself. If it is asymmetrical in resistance or capacity throughout its length, it will give different response.

Yes, a cable does have resistance, and capacitance, but if they exist in any amount where the changes to the signal are non-linear*, you should get a different cable.

But as for for asymmetrical through-out, that only would matter if you cut the cable in half, and measured each piece. A series of filters applied to alternating current has the same response regardless of order.


*EDIT: I should say, in the audible range. If you're sending RF down a speaker wire, then you're going to have trouble.

But even then you are thinking of analogue audio being sent directly down a cable.  This is data cabling going to and from Network Attached Storage and a Router according to the examples given in the copy, you'll end up with bit perfect results with any standard ethernet cable, up to a hundred gigabits a second on domestic equipment these days without any loss of anything, and have bandwidth to burn.

[normen]

But even then you are thinking of analogue audio being sent directly down a cable.  This is data cabling going to and from Network Attached Storage and a Router according to the examples given in the copy, you'll end up with bit perfect results with any standard ethernet cable, up to a hundred gigabits a second on domestic equipment these days.

Depending on the length of the cable you might not get 100GB out of stock ethernet cables, you really need CAT7 for that. But it doesn't degrade gradually, it plain doesn't work

[Ostermilk]

But even then you are thinking of analogue audio being sent directly down a cable.  This is data cabling going to and from Network Attached Storage and a Router according to the examples given in the copy, you'll end up with bit perfect results with any standard ethernet cable, up to a hundred gigabits a second on domestic equipment these days.

Depending on the length of the cable you might not get 100GB out of stock ethernet cables, you really need CAT7 for that. But it doesn't degrade gradually, it plain doesn't work

Exactly, I was going to add it won't degrade over longer lengths you'll simply get errors thrown up everywhere.

So you are saying you ain't even getting CAT 7 here for your 4 grand...



Edit: blimey you are right it says 10GB up to 100m....

[Ostermilk]

Here's a bit more of the same even though these are Cat 7 and a little bit saner in price, the being able the 'hear' the difference and the directional claim is maintained.

http://www.futureshop.co.uk/product_inf ... NqbCy6rbOA

Still no data presented to back up those claims though, man even shampoo adverts usually include a science bit.

I'm starting to wonder now if my downloaded version of Reason isn't as good as anybody elses now because I've only got a £10 cablle connecting me to the .net and I'm not even sure if it's pointing in the right direction...


btw I'm working on an atmospheric ionising spray so that mission critical Wi-Fi connected audio devices can handle the rigours of being listened to by audiophiles, because as we all know a lot of the etherial quality of music gets stuck to the inside of physical cables making wireless far superior.  £250 per 5ml should do it I wonder what fragrance I should use to improve the listening experience.

[ScuzzyEye]

That's why I even brought up the analog audio side of things, because there might be a measurable loss of signal (at least with equipment more sensitive than the human ear) there. But with digital there's no sense in even trying to discuss the directionality of cable.

At least with HDMI being a bitstream with no error detection you can actually see errors with poor cable pushed beyond its limits. When Ethernet starts to break down, it isn't even noticeable until things go really bad. Ethernet being packetized with each packet containing a checksum, and the ability of devices to re-request a bad packet, just slows down a bit when the cable isn't up to delivering things as quickly as requested. That's a reason that DisplayPort is superior to HDMI/DVI, it is also packetized.

[zeebot]

Dont cross the streams!!!

 

[tt_lab]

Glad I am a melomaniac and not an audiophile!!

[Noplan]

This is for esoterics.

[Tumble]

Audiophiles are basically insane.

http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm

[orthodox]

A series of filters applied to alternating current has the same response regardless of order.

That's about commutative operators (e.g. linear filters) and only if you change the order and don't turn the filters the other way around.
A cascade of plain voltage dividers has unequal response in two directions.

Glad I am a melomaniac and not an audiophile!!

Wait a bit, we'll pick out something for you, too.

[phasys]

There was a blind test conducted with a bunch of "audiophiles" using speaker wire.  The blind a/b test was conducted using:

• A premium name brand "audiophile" speaker wire
• Coat hangers unwound into a wire

No one could tell the difference.  Don't believe the hype, peeps.  

Oblig:

[orthodox]

There was a blind test conducted with a bunch of "audiophiles" using speaker wire.

That's about everyone, not just audiophiles.
I watched several blind tests on TV.
A bunch of factory owners producing pasta and vodka (both premium-class and cheap) gathered in studio and tried to distinguish good from bad in a blind test. They mixed up everything and could not even recognize their own product.

[normen]

When "audiophiles" show me their setup and tell me what they spent I always tell them they should have simply gotten proper monitor speakers (some could even afford OH300s for what they put in their setup), then even an iPod connected to that would sound better ^^

Sometimes when I see these speakers with like 8-way setups and whatnot.. They're just made to impress by sheer amount of membranes but in fact cause a horrible phase mess.. And the "great tube amps" have terrible frequency responses and distortion. Yet it always sounds better to them the more they spend..

But who am I talking to, I bet theres loads of people here who bought their umteenth subtractive synth and swear that its waves sound so much better than the ones of the last one they bought

[ScuzzyEye]

That's about commutative operators (e.g. linear filters) and only if you change the order and don't turn the filters the other way around. A cascade of plain voltage dividers has unequal response in two directions.

I'm not arguing that passive electronics don't have different characteristics when the electron flow is reversed. I'm arguing that it doesn't make a difference with audio (or any AC signalling), because the electron flow is reserving several thousand times a second.

It is the very fact that audio is AC, that gives various electronic components their properties. If you were to put DC into a filter, and measure the output, and then reverse the polarity, sure you'll get a completely different result. But keep reversing the flow, and look at the average over time, and you'll get the same result regardless of which way around the filter is oriented.

There is no fixed direction of electron flow when dealing with AC. So there's no fixed direction of cables, filters, or any passive electronics.

[selig]

When "audiophiles" show me their setup and tell me what they spent I always tell them they should have simply gotten proper monitor speakers (some could even afford OH300s for what they put in their setup), then even an iPod connected to that would sound better ^^

Sometimes when I see these speakers with like 8-way setups and whatnot.. They're just made to impress by sheer amount of membranes but in fact cause a horrible phase mess.. And the "great tube amps" have terrible frequency responses and distortion. Yet it always sounds better to them the more they spend..

But who am I talking to, I bet theres loads of people here who bought their umteenth subtractive synth and swear that its waves sound so much better than the ones of the last one they bought

When I first saw what studios were using for monitors, I was not very impressed. How can a two way system even work? Some of the absolute best rooms I've ever heard have horns for the high end - how can a horn even work?

But they are some of the best sounding rooms I've ever heard or worked in. Listening to commercial music releases was a pleasure - not necessarily more 'revealing' or anything like that, more like " so this is what they heard when they made this record" because it just sounds so good. And even when playback levels are fairly loud, you can still have a conversation with the person next to you. Did I mention the room was flat within a few dB from 24 Hz - 20 kHz - without using ANY room EQ whatsoever? 

(here's the room that changed my mind about what gear should sound "good", designed by Tom Hidley with Hidley/Kinoshita monitors (bi-amped, with 2 15" woofers for the bottom and a modified TAD driver/horn for the top):
   

Of course all of this goes against everything I had learned from the "hi-fi" world! But damn, this was the first time I felt I was free to just make the mix sound good to me, and it WOULD be good even when played on different systems. Anyway, on the audiophile subject, the owner was talked into installing $15k Perreaux ower amps in, two per side plus the unused center speaker had one IIRC. Ouch…Crown amps would have sounded 99% as good, the secret is in the monitors and the room treatments, which are hidden behind the 'fake' fabric walls.

But this is all real science, we should go back to talking about putting crystals in the corners to absorb low frequency energy!

[orthodox]

There is no fixed direction of electron flow when dealing with AC. So there's no fixed direction of cables, filters, or any passive electronics.

That's not about charge flow direction.
That's about which part of asymmetrical system you may apply force to, and where you watch results, much like leverage. Wave a baseball bat or speak to a horn from either end.

[normen]

That's not about charge flow direction. That's about which part of asymmetrical system you may apply force to, and where you watch results, much like leverage. Wave a baseball bat or speak to a horn from either end.

But electric current isn't  a baseball bat..

In this picture it doesn't matter where the dent in that tube is, the current flow at both ends will be the same no matter which way you blow into the tube. More so if you alternately blow and draw.

[orthodox]

In this picture it doesn't matter where the dent in that tube is, the current flow at both ends will be the same no matter which way you blow into the tube. More so if you alternately blow and draw.

Nobody denies conservation of electric charge or Kirchhoff's circuit laws.
The emf at the end and overall current will be different for high frequencies.

Here is a simple passive device which works differently depending on direction (R1≠R2):