MMC control for Samson M25/Reason

[ravisoni]

So I just got this cool looking thing they called Samson Grpahite M25.
It works fine for the most part, but I can't seem to get to work the MMC controls (mostly which I want to use for the master volume and transport buttons).
I looked up some threads and their own video, too, but there's nothing that helps me out with reason. I noticed someone saying that MMC from the controller seems to be sending sysex messages and so it can't be mapped. Not entirely sure what that means, but when I downloaded midimonitor, I saw that the master volume & all the MMC:stop/rewind/record buttons register as sysex data.
Attached are a couple screenshots. Is there any workaround for this? The only one I found was assigning those transport buttons on the keyboard as CC55 (undefined) and so on, but that means I have to remote override each time I start a new session of reason. I work on a lot of old files, so remapping every time I open an old song would be a nightmare.

Would using reason's owb ext midi inst help in this case? I tried fiddling around, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I've attached a few screenshots if that helps understand my situation.

Thanks for any help!

rf1.png (154.68 KiB) Viewed 2103 times

rf2.JPG (46.01 KiB) Viewed 2103 times

[artotaku]

Sysex Messages cannot be directly mapped as Remote Overrides. MMC commands as triggers for the transport buttons only work if you set your MIDI controller as MIDI input clock source (Preferences -> Sync and Options -> Sync -> MIDI clock.
At least this is how it works with the Arturia BeatStep.

If you can assign MIDI CC to the controller buttons instead you have the following options (AFAIK)

• map it with Remote Overrides and save the Reason document as template so you won´t have to do it again
• use the generic MIDI keyboard controller codec that comes with Reason and extend the remotemap file to map some controller items to transport controls (generic keyboard controller supports all CCs 0 - 127)
• write your own specific codec for the Samson

[ravisoni]

Thank you artotaku!
I ended up returning it. There were more problems with it than was worth dealing. Good to learn something about hardware, though!

[Stygian Abyss]

Anyone wanting to use the M25 with Reason will have to create a preset using the editor software available on Samson's website, and may find those I have created for myself a good starting point.
The difference between preset 1 and 2 in the attached zip file is simply the mapping of the pads for Kong: 1 = lower part, 2 = upper part.

The only thing one has to do in Reason to make it fully work is to use remote override to map the five transport buttons and save the project as a template or default new project.

[Rason]

Anyone wanting to use the M25 with Reason will have to create a preset using the editor software available on Samson's website, and may find those I have created for myself a good starting point.
The difference between preset 1 and 2 in the attached zip file is simply the mapping of the pads for Kong: 1 = lower part, 2 = upper part.

The only thing one has to do in Reason to make it fully work is to use remote override to map the five transport buttons and save the project as a template or default new project.

Thats generous, thanks. I also own M25 and have never used it, bcs it didnt work as I needed and I am more seq/arp oriented. However, now I am evaluating the device and deciding whether to throw it away or leave it on my table. I probably dont need the stuff discussed above, but I would like to be able to assign the 8 knobs to some knobs on the plugins. They all seem to share the same CC 07 number when trying to override map them. Is this anyhow related to the MMC and editor stuff disussed above? Can this behavior be changed and I need to dig into it, or it cannot be changed and M25 has 8 knobs, that are really usable as 1 knob? Thanks a lot.

[Stygian Abyss]

Thats generous, thanks. I also own M25 and have never used it, bcs it didnt work as I needed and I am more seq/arp oriented. However, now I am evaluating the device and deciding whether to throw it away or leave it on my table. I probably dont need the stuff discussed above, but I would like to be able to assign the 8 knobs to some knobs on the plugins. They all seem to share the same CC 07 number when trying to override map them. Is this anyhow related to the MMC and editor stuff disussed above? Can this behavior be changed and I need to dig into it, or it cannot be changed and M25 has 8 knobs, that are really usable as 1 knob? Thanks a lot.

Hi Rason, your problem is not related to the MMC, but to the fact that the M25 factory preset mappings are a reset state, and, as you noticed, all 8 rotary knobs are mapped to the same CC number, which is nonsense. You have to create your own mapping with the configuration software available for download on Samson's website to make it actually work with Reason or any other DAW, which is quite fast and simple, but only once you know the correct values. And this is the difficult part, as the M25 or Reason manual won't help much, the configuration software is a little bit cryptic and has a few annoying bugs.

Anyway, I managed to create mapping presets that work great for me with Reason using trial and error, and I posted them in the attached zip file. If my memory is correct the 8 buttons are mapped to CC 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9 and 10. You can load my preset files using the configuration software and send them to the M25 - if the bugs let you do so. If it doesn't work correctly, just ask and I will give you the correct values to set in the editor. I'd suggest you to keep the M25 on the table: once you've got it set up correctly, it's a nice portable system that works very well with Reason and has a lot of useful functionality on a small surface.

[Rason]

Thats generous, thanks. I also own M25 and have never used it, bcs it didnt work as I needed and I am more seq/arp oriented. However, now I am evaluating the device and deciding whether to throw it away or leave it on my table. I probably dont need the stuff discussed above, but I would like to be able to assign the 8 knobs to some knobs on the plugins. They all seem to share the same CC 07 number when trying to override map them. Is this anyhow related to the MMC and editor stuff disussed above? Can this behavior be changed and I need to dig into it, or it cannot be changed and M25 has 8 knobs, that are really usable as 1 knob? Thanks a lot.

Hi Rason, your problem is not related to the MMC, but to the fact that the M25 factory preset mappings are a reset state, and, as you noticed, all 8 rotary knobs are mapped to the same CC number, which is nonsense. You have to create your own mapping with the configuration software available for download on Samson's website to make it actually work with Reason or any other DAW, which is quite fast and simple, but only once you know the correct values. And this is the difficult part, as the M25 or Reason manual won't help much, the configuration software is a little bit cryptic and has a few annoying bugs.

Anyway, I managed to create mapping presets that work great for me with Reason using trial and error, and I posted them in the attached zip file. If my memory is correct the 8 buttons are mapped to CC 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 9 and 10. You can load my preset files using the configuration software and send them to the M25 - if the bugs let you do so. If it doesn't work correctly, just ask and I will give you the correct values to set in the editor. I'd suggest you to keep the M25 on the table: once you've got it set up correctly, it's a nice portable system that works very well with Reason and has a lot of useful functionality on a small surface.

Hello Stygian Abyss. Thank you for taking time to provide the detailed response. So far I have been able to find out, that the default presets work like this: Preset 1 : CC 07 for all knobs. Preset 2 : CC 08 - CC 15 (the only usable one). Preset 3-4 : CC 07 for the upper row, CC 10 for the lower row. According to what I read in TFM, recalling the 4 presets (preset+pad num.) circles around up to 32 assignments. Great. Now, does the "preset" term refer to the "bank" term in the editor? If I manage to define all 32 knobs within the 4 banks, do I recall them with preset+pad num buttons? Also, when I go Menu>Upload in the editor, it asks me to choose 1 preset out of 14 (Graphite, P17-P30) which is in contrary to what I saw on some videos showing just 4 presets in that menu logically. Anyway, the editor wouldnt load up your presets, becasue they are .bin files and the editor only seems to recognize .sav files, which is also the only format it would allow to save a preset as. I guess I am quite OK with at least 8 assignable knobs for the default preset 2. I cant seem to find a way how to send some preset from editor to the device or upload your preset in the editor.

[Stygian Abyss]

Hello Stygian Abyss. Thank you for taking time to provide the detailed response. So far I have been able to find out, that the default presets work like this: Preset 1 : CC 07 for all knobs. Preset 2 : CC 08 - CC 15 (the only usable one). Preset 3-4 : CC 07 for the upper row, CC 10 for the lower row. According to what I read in TFM, recalling the 4 presets (preset+pad num.) circles around up to 32 assignments. Great. Now, does the "preset" term refer to the "bank" term in the editor? If I manage to define all 32 knobs within the 4 banks, do I recall them with preset+pad num buttons? Also, when I go Menu>Upload in the editor, it asks me to choose 1 preset out of 14 (Graphite, P17-P30) which is in contrary to what I saw on some videos showing just 4 presets in that menu logically. Anyway, the editor wouldnt load up your presets, becasue they are .bin files and the editor only seems to recognize .sav files, which is also the only format it would allow to save a preset as. I guess I am quite OK with at least 8 assignable knobs for the default preset 2. I cant seem to find a way how to send some preset from editor to the device or upload your preset in the editor.

Rason, sorry about the late reply. The M25 has four presets, with four banks of four pads per preset.

The thing you wrote about the editor upload menu offering to choose between 14 presets to upload from the M25 is very strange. Just to be sure, there is a Graphite M25 model with ist editor, and it's the one we're discussing here, but there's also a Graphite 25 from the same brand with another editor app. Did you download the correct app ?

If all is right, and as the default presets won't work with Reason and you can't load my patches, you'll have to create yours with the editor app and send them to the M25 using Menu > Download to device. I'll give you the parameters that work well with Reason on my Windows 10 system.

[Stygian Abyss]

Here is a Remote Codec that I have written that works with my mapping patches.

Installation:
- Download and open the zip archive.
- Copy Graphite m25.remotemap to:
Windows: %APPDATA%\Propellerhead Software\Remote\Maps\Samson\
MacOS: ~/Library/Application Support/Propellerhead Software/Remote/Maps/Samson/
- Copy the 3 other files to:
Windows: %APPDATA%\Propellerhead Software\Remote\Codecs\Lua Codecs\Samson\
MacOS: ~/Library/Application Support/Propellerhead Software/Remote/Codecs/Lua Codecs/Samson/
- Launch Reason, open the Preferences, remove the generic control surface you used with the M25 if you had one installed, and install the new control surface as usual by selecting Samson as the manufacturer.

Usage:
The M25 allows to easily send Program Change messages by pressing PROG and entering a number between 0 and 127 using the rightmost keyboard keys. As this function is almost useless when using a DAW, I've written some code that allows to use these messages to select one of the 10 available banks of controls directly from the M25 instead of using the computer keyboard. To switch to a bank, simply send Program Change number 1, 2, ..., 9 or 0.