5 pin VS USB MIDI - Any difference?

[RobC]

Is it worth buying a midi keyboard with dedicated 5 pin MIDI out for playing an analog synthesizer? Would it have better reaction time? Or is the latency barely any different when a plain USB midi keyboard goes into PC, then through USB out, goes into the analog synthesizer's USB in?

(I'm still planning to get the Behringer Neutron - 99.4% decided - I think, it doesn't accept MIDI just via the USB out of a keyboard.)

[rorystorm]

One thing I've found using USB out of the PC into hardware is that the signal is very noisy - it differs for each synth but in a couple it makes it almost unusable. No doubt this is because my set up is shit! But it's the only way I can have it in my recording situation (which is in my bedroom which has one power plug). However I have a Komplete Audio 6 audio interface with a 5 pin out so I use that to send midi from Reason to my hardware synths and there are no issues with noise if I use this instead. Neutron in particular has a very noisy signal with USB but it's clean af with 5 pin so.... there you go. I haven't tested for any latency issues but haven't noticed any.

Sorry just re read your post and realised that doesn't answer your question, sorry. But this is worth thinking about particularly in the future if you pick up any hardware powered by USB rather than a mains in as this where the noise issue becomes really terrible.

[MuttReason]

MIDI DIN ports are optically isolated by design. You won’t get ground loop noise over MIDI DIN.

USB is a general electronics connection protocol. It wasn’t designed with music production and audio engineering in mind. MIDI (and audio) over USB works well… but there is always the possibility of digital noise if the USB components inside the synth aren’t shielded properly or if there’s anything else amiss internally that causes interference.

I’ve had some pretty horrible USB noise issues with gear over the years, and across multiple manufacturers.

You can buy little USB noise filter adaptors which will help but TBH I’ve learned that nothing beats MIDI DIN for 100% plug and play reliability.

Long story short, my personal rule for a few years now is I won’t buy a piece of hardware gear that doesn’t have a MIDI DIN port (or MIDI DIN via one of those mini TRS adaptors).

[huggermugger]

There's a reason that 5-pin DIN MIDI is still a thing after 40 years. It works.

[raymondh]

+1 on the above.

I only use DIN MIDI now after spending more time unsuccessfully trying to isolate and eliminate digital noise, than actually make music.

It's a shame because the integration in USB MIDI is so much more powerful, but frankly not worth the hassle.

From a latency perspective I am *guessing* that USB would be better, but even then I suspect still issues with jitter etc. (try sending a 16th note hi-hat pattern to your drum machine via MIDI and recording the audio back into your sequencer to see jitter in action!)

It's hard to beat 'in the box' to avoid any number of technical issues using outboard gear.

[RobC]

One thing I've found using USB out of the PC into hardware is that the signal is very noisy - it differs for each synth but in a couple it makes it almost unusable. No doubt this is because my set up is shit! But it's the only way I can have it in my recording situation (which is in my bedroom which has one power plug). However I have a Komplete Audio 6 audio interface with a 5 pin out so I use that to send midi from Reason to my hardware synths and there are no issues with noise if I use this instead. Neutron in particular has a very noisy signal with USB but it's clean af with 5 pin so.... there you go. I haven't tested for any latency issues but haven't noticed any.

Sorry just re read your post and realised that doesn't answer your question, sorry. But this is worth thinking about particularly in the future if you pick up any hardware powered by USB rather than a mains in as this where the noise issue becomes really terrible.

Great, more problems then. I don't mind the analog dirt, but I definitely don't want the music to become a filthy mess.
I did get an expensive USB HUB and 3.0 cable, but I doubt it will save the day either.
If USB to MIDI works, then there are such converters from 25 EUR. Question is, if I can plug a USB MIDI keyboard into that, and use a hardware synth that way, when the computer isn't needed.

My guess would be that direct MIDI control via DIN could be the fastest, when it comes to latency.

I heard of some kind of USB lubrication or similar, but not sure if that would help.

When it comes to sequencing, the DAW probably will be unavoidable.

There is some Arturia midi keyboard with midi out, but I'm not sure if Reason can send MIDI data to the keyboard, and the keyboard via DIN out to the hardware synth's DIN-in.

The biggest downside? The more stuff I need to buy in adition, the higher the cost. Also, modular patch cables are hard to find in my country. Maybe some by Korg are available (3.5mm mono jack), but that will be another topic.

Not gonna lie, yesterday I felt so hopeless with all these issues, that I thought about giving up the Neutron dream.
I still want it today, but it definitely will need a lot of patience searching for the right webshops and tools.

[RobC]

MIDI DIN ports are optically isolated by design. You won’t get ground loop noise over MIDI DIN.

USB is a general electronics connection protocol. It wasn’t designed with music production and audio engineering in mind. MIDI (and audio) over USB works well… but there is always the possibility of digital noise if the USB components inside the synth aren’t shielded properly or if there’s anything else amiss internally that causes interference.

I’ve had some pretty horrible USB noise issues with gear over the years, and across multiple manufacturers.

You can buy little USB noise filter adaptors which will help but TBH I’ve learned that nothing beats MIDI DIN for 100% plug and play reliability.

Long story short, my personal rule for a few years now is I won’t buy a piece of hardware gear that doesn’t have a MIDI DIN port (or MIDI DIN via one of those mini TRS adaptors).

I definitely didn't know these, even if I've been mostly in-the-box, except microphone use.

I guess that means no way around DIN, but hey, the cables are part of the fun and discovering the hardware territory more deeply.

Above, I wrote my plan to maybe send MIDI data from computer USB to USB MIDI keyboard, and then if it can do that, from the keyboard to the hardware synth via DIN.

Otherwise, I'd get a USB to DIN converter. Though then I'd likely get latency, and I would need Reason to run, so I can play it.

[RobC]

There's a reason that 5-pin DIN MIDI is still a thing after 40 years. It works.

Since it's also digital, is there any latency, or is it under 1 ms?

Say, I get an Arturia MIDI keyboard with DIN out, and I connect that to a Behringer Neutron's MIDI (DIN) in.

[RobC]

+1 on the above.

I only use DIN MIDI now after spending more time unsuccessfully trying to isolate and eliminate digital noise, than actually make music.

It's a shame because the integration in USB MIDI is so much more powerful, but frankly not worth the hassle.

From a latency perspective I am *guessing* that USB would be better, but even then I suspect still issues with jitter etc. (try sending a 16th note hi-hat pattern to your drum machine via MIDI and recording the audio back into your sequencer to see jitter in action!)

It's hard to beat 'in the box' to avoid any number of technical issues using outboard gear.

It depends on the connection path, I guess, but if the MIDI goes out from Reason, then maybe the used interface will determine the latency. Unless we can bypass the AD/DAC, and only make it send out MIDI signal and nothing else. Then I guess latency could be as low as ~1ms.

Hmm, the jitter could mess up synchronisation. Good luck to me trying to do parallel processing like that. I'm cool with a little imperfection, but not with out-of-synch.

A good thing I want to play most things live - heck, I might not even use a metronome for experimentation.

Outboard gear inspires and teaches, though, so it's worth it.

[selig]

NOTE: IF you go with Neutron, there is only the USB option for MIDI IN if I’m not mistaken, so a moot point. Otherwise…

If you’re going from a controller keyboard directly to a sound module, MIDI will be your only option in most/all cases (not 100% sure). But if you’re going to the computer and back, you’ll want to have the option for USB for patch backups/exchange (if your synth supports them) and firmware updates etc.

As for your question of latency, you sort of answered it. You compare going directly from keyboard to module to going round trip through your PC. The direct route will almost always be quicker than a trip through the old CPU and back. But the direct route won’t allow you to record in your DAW. I use BOTH in my current setup, my controller goes to the DAW and back, and from the keyboard I run MIDI to my instruments so I can play them directly without the computer booted. I also run USB to each synth that has it, for patches and to be played from the DAW. Best of both worlds.
Plus my keyboard also converts USB MIDI from the DAW to EuroRack gate/cv/mod jacks, which is how I control those synths (the ones without MIDI or USB) from the DAW.

But it depends on what you’re used to and what you play. If you play space/ambient music and never played a hardware instrument/piano you may not notice even extreme latency. But if you are a drummer who can play tightly locked to a click, even a small amount of latency would potentially cause issues.

[RobC]

NOTE: IF you go with Neutron, there is only the USB option for MIDI IN if I’m not mistaken, so a moot point. Otherwise…

If you’re going from a controller keyboard directly to a sound module, MIDI will be your only option in most/all cases (not 100% sure). But if you’re going to the computer and back, you’ll want to have the option for USB for patch backups/exchange (if your synth supports them) and firmware updates etc.

As for your question of latency, you sort of answered it. You compare going directly from keyboard to module to going round trip through your PC. The direct route will almost always be quicker than a trip through the old CPU and back. But the direct route won’t allow you to record in your DAW. I use BOTH in my current setup, my controller goes to the DAW and back, and from the keyboard I run MIDI to my instruments so I can play them directly without the computer booted. I also run USB to each synth that has it, for patches and to be played from the DAW. Best of both worlds.
Plus my keyboard also converts USB MIDI from the DAW to EuroRack gate/cv/mod jacks, which is how I control those synths (the ones without MIDI or USB) from the DAW.

But it depends on what you’re used to and what you play. If you play space/ambient music and never played a hardware instrument/piano you may not notice even extreme latency. But if you are a drummer who can play tightly locked to a click, even a small amount of latency would potentially cause issues.

I think there was an update to the device, and the newer edition, according to the manual, can handle DIN MIDI properly.

Well, that's a bummer if MIDI devices can't communicate directly via USB. But as for the presets, that's not a big deal. I can always just take a picture. But that's not the purpose for me when it comes to going analog. I kind of find the limitations inspiring. I like starting from scratch and making as many new sounds as possible.

I guess MIDI DIN can cut a good 5-10 ms of latency then, which is neat. Much like with presets, I don't really mind MIDI data not getting recorded, although I think Neutron has a MIDI DIN out or through. I kind of want to treat an analog synth like an acoustic instrument, or vocal. Record once and done.
Converting MIDI to CV from a DAW is a new one for me - I guess there's something to more expensive Midi keyboards after all. Sounds useful! Though I want to keep the path as analog as possible, as a self-challenge, for now.

I've always been the electronic, in the box type. However, recording notes through USB MIDI keyboard never really worked for me, even with only under 10 ms latency. So I always used that for composing, and then I corrected the MIDI notes' timing. It wasn't too bad, but never felt right.
Recording with microphone and latency compensation, I was spot-on. So, it definitely will matter.

[selig]

I think there was an update to the device, and the newer edition, according to the manual, can handle DIN MIDI properly.

Hold the presses, the MIDI input is actually on the front panel - odd choice (and why I missed it) especially since there appears to be plenty of room on the back panel for it.

As for MIDI over USB, I’ve never had an issue with latency there compared to using DIN cables, the bigger latency comes from the audio path in my experience. So I monitor the audio path directly when recording hardware via USB MIDI (I have a dedicated synth mixer with it’s own speaker/sub system, which works fantastic for this purpose).

[RobC]

I think there was an update to the device, and the newer edition, according to the manual, can handle DIN MIDI properly.

Hold the presses, the MIDI input is actually on the front panel - odd choice (and why I missed it) especially since there appears to be plenty of room on the back panel for it.

As for MIDI over USB, I’ve never had an issue with latency there compared to using DIN cables, the bigger latency comes from the audio path in my experience. So I monitor the audio path directly when recording hardware via USB MIDI (I have a dedicated synth mixer with it’s own speaker/sub system, which works fantastic for this purpose).

Don't forget that if you are using Apple computers, those probably always have better shielding (USB) and better latency. People say that with Windows systems, USB gets noisy.
And yes, I would use direct monitoring, too when possible.

[rorystorm]

Here is one thing about Midi din that I haven't found a fix for although it's probably a user error rather than a system issue. Ie I am stupid.

Anyway, I have the following set up.

Reason => audio interface (NI Komplete 6) via usb.
audio interface to hardware synth via midi din.

so that's fine, as I said above this means there's little or no noise or earth loop nastiness.

HOWEVER the synths don't receive cc messages from Reason's Midi Out instrument which does happen if I hook a synth up to the audio interface with usb.

Here's the thing. When it's all connected up with usb the synth appears as a destination in Midi Out's drop down of Midi Ports. But if the synth is connected with midi din it doesn't appear in the drop down and instead the Komplete 6 appears as a destination instead. I'm guessing that what happens is the cc messages are sent to the Komplete 6 but when the connection is via midi din the Komplete 6 doesn't send them on to the synth the way it does when connected to by usb.

I've done some digging around and can't find anything about this. There's nothing in the documentation either for Reason or the Komplete 6 and Dr Google isn't helpful either. I'm still in the early stages of learning about hardware routing so like I said, it's probably something I'm not doing in the right way......

[EDIT: I forgot to say, I also have an Akai MPK 249 which also has midi din out and also appears in the Midi Out dropdown but have the same issue of it not sending cc messages to hardware gear].