Am I the only one who doesn’t write, arrange, produce, mix, master in a specific order?

[TritoneAddiction]

Am I the only one who doesn’t write, arrange, produce, mix, master in a specific order?

We’ve all heard we ”should” do these things in a particular order.
I can see the point of following these traditional steps when you record bands or more acoustic projects. You write a tune, the core of the music. Then take each step to enhance whatever you got. It makes sense.

But for me making electronic music, this traditional way often doesn’t make much sense to me. Picking and sculpting particular sounds is such an integral part of the music that it essentially becomes part of the song writing itself. And for me the line between mixing and sound sculpting can get so blurry that I pretty much don’t seperate between the two. Getting the right sound and feel of a track in the beginning stage is crucial for me to even wanting to continue working on a track. Therefor it’s not unusual for me to add bus compression and a master limiter pretty early on.
The notes themselves are of course an important part of the song. But if they aren’t played with the right sounds they almost don’t matter. It would be like playing metal on a tuba and a triangel or something. It could still be cool I guess, but it’s essentially a completely different song.
This is why I tend to do every step of the process randomly. I say randomly, but it’s not really completely random. I do whatever step I feel naturally in the moment. I do things intuitively. If I hear certain notes/rhythms in my head I put them in the sequencer. If I imagine particular sounds I go look for/tweak sounds. If some frequency annoys me I make a mixing move. If an idea for arrangement pops up I try that. I switch between all these different modes back and forth over and over until finally the song is finished.


How do you guys make music? Do you always follow a strict order, or are you all over the place like me?

[QVprod]

Your process is very normal. In recording school you’re taught to get the recording right at the source so often you’re sort of “mixing” on the way in so that you’re not having to do a lot afterwards. That’s why people record with a hardware channel strip or why a guitarist will be very specific about their tone.

People with more of a preset oriented workflow choose sounds that already sound they way they want it to or at least very close. Or perhaps make additional teaks as they go.

[RobC]

Currently, I work in just that order, but backwards, from mastering, to writing nothing. : D

[TritoneAddiction]

Your process is very normal. In recording school you’re taught to get the recording right at the source so often you’re sort of “mixing” on the way in so that you’re not having to do a lot afterwards. That’s why people record with a hardware channel strip or why a guitarist will be very specific about their tone.

People with more of a preset oriented workflow choose sounds that already sound they way they want it to or at least very close. Or perhaps make additional teaks as they go.

Ok. I've heard examples of people doing the way you describe. But I've also heard a lot of people doing much of the foundation before doing any mixing at all.
I think over the years I've come across more mixing videos/tutorials working with recorded music instead of electronic music, which might also be why I've heard many people emphasize the do-things-in-the-"correct"-order method.

[TritoneAddiction]

Currently, I work in just that order, but backwards, from mastering, to writing nothing. : D

I have to give that one a shot.

[DaveyG]

Mixing as you go along is very much a thing with modern DAWs.

Rewind the clock about 30 years and you'll find a stressed engineer tasked with recording an album with a new, inexperienced band in just one or two weeks. His job (and it was always a he) is to get enough takes of everything, with just enough outboard processing, to hand to the mix engineer enough material to make a great album. I've had the privilege to see the process first hand more than a few times and I've always wondered how they know that they "have enough". Because some of the raw recordings sounded very, um, raw and back then new bands rarely had the luxury of popping back to re-record a few bits at a later date.

So compose/record/mix/master however you like.

[Quarmat]

I write compulsively when I'm in the zone. By writing I mean putting/playing notes, choosing/tweaking/creating patches and using effects as part of sound design/creative process. When the burst of creativity starts to fade out I begin to roughly mix what I've done so far and hearing how it sounds with my standard mastering chain. Then, if I am lucky in the same session, new ideas arise and I write new stuff, change or remove sections and doing some arrangement/orchestration. When I guess the song structure is more or less done I begin the "proper" mixing session. I usually end up with printing 3 to 5 different mixes and I A/B them with Reference5 before the mastering chain to choose the best one. Then, if needed I make the last tweaks on the best mix and adjust the mastering accordingly. So yeah: I am on the "all over the place" team as well.

[Superology]

You are not the only one. But this approach is better if you want to focus on composition (which is the main thing). Why? Because you don't overwhelm your brain with unnecessary tasks at some stages of production.

P.S. If you are lazy or just want to create some vibes, then, yeah, it's not for you.

[TritoneAddiction]

I write compulsively when I'm in the zone. By writing I mean putting/playing notes, choosing/tweaking/creating patches and using effects as part of sound design/creative process. When the burst of creativity starts to fade out I begin to roughly mix what I've done so far and hearing how it sounds with my standard mastering chain. Then, if I am lucky in the same session, new ideas arise and I write new stuff, change or remove sections and doing some arrangement/orchestration. When I guess the song structure is more or less done I begin the "proper" mixing session. I usually end up with printing 3 to 5 different mixes and I A/B them with Reference5 before the mastering chain to choose the best one. Then, if needed I make the last tweaks on the best mix and adjust the mastering accordingly. So yeah: I am on the "all over the place" team as well.

Cool. I can see how that works.

[TritoneAddiction]

You are not the only one. But this approach is better if you want to focus on composition (which is the main thing). Why? Because you don't overwhelm your brain with unnecessary tasks at some stages of production.

P.S. If you are lazy or just want to create some vibes, then, yeah, it's not for you.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you seem to have this idea that production is somehow "unnecessary". I've seen you say something similar before. I mean of course the song writing itself is very important. But with some music, the production and sound selection is like 80% of the entire music. Like with Prodigy for instance, which I know you like.
Heck I've even heard them say in interviews that it's all about creating that vibe. I guess they're "lazy".

[_andreypetr_]

You are not the only one. But this approach is better if you want to focus on composition (which is the main thing). Why? Because you don't overwhelm your brain with unnecessary tasks at some stages of production.

P.S. If you are lazy or just want to create some vibes, then, yeah, it's not for you.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you seem to have this idea that production is somehow "unnecessary". I've seen you say something similar before. I mean of course the song writing itself is very important. But with some music, the production and sound selection is like 80% of the entire music. Like with Prodigy for instance, which I know you like.
Heck I've even heard them say in interviews that it's all about creating that vibe. I guess they're "lazy".

Lazy people often come up with better solutions

[Popey]

I guess I am quite random and do not follow a set routine as such just working as the individual track needs. That said I do not tend to have a limiter or anything on my master bus until the track structure and work is finished so guess this would be the mastering stage.

I tend to create a lot of the sounds, drums, and melodies/arps first (usually in a 32 bar loop) with only basic eq (like removing low end from hats, pads as required). I try to just remove what I know I will not use to allow me to hear the bass and any low elements clearly. Hearing everything play together helps me see all elements can work together and turning off and on elements helps me decide on parts of the structure (do I start with an arp, drums only etc) . I will at this point already have created any reverb, delay inserts or sends etc which are used as creative fx for the song.

I then develop the 32 bar loop into the song structure and at this point once the track is laid out I start to work on any synth/fx modulation. Usually at this point my old i5 3470 pc is struggling so I save the project as a new version and flatten all the MIDI to audio to start mixing, panning, clipping etc. After the song is complete I will then usually export the single file for mastering.

If it wasn't for the limitations of my cpu I would probably do a lot of the mixing as I go along in all honesty.

[selig]

Folks have been doing sound design as a part of writing since there have been synths. Electronic music (of all genres) has it’s own workflow IMO.
I recently did a project where I came up with all the drum and percussion recordings first, then wrote from there. I’ve tried just about every technique from starting the mix with the vocals to starting a mix from the first instrument to mixing with a limiter (which feels like trying to run underwater!).

I would say in the DAW age it’s more likely few folks work in the ‘traditional order’ any more than they still worked in the 2-track workflow after multitrack tape was introduced. The technology informs the workflow in most cases in my experience.

[QVprod]

Your process is very normal. In recording school you’re taught to get the recording right at the source so often you’re sort of “mixing” on the way in so that you’re not having to do a lot afterwards. That’s why people record with a hardware channel strip or why a guitarist will be very specific about their tone.

People with more of a preset oriented workflow choose sounds that already sound they way they want it to or at least very close. Or perhaps make additional teaks as they go.

Ok. I've heard examples of people doing the way you describe. But I've also heard a lot of people doing much of the foundation before doing any mixing at all.
I think over the years I've come across more mixing videos/tutorials working with recorded music instead of electronic music, which might also be why I've heard many people emphasize the do-things-in-the-"correct"-order method.

Perhaps, but I’d still say dialing in a guitar tone counts as sound design. And if you’re into virtual amps, it’s common for analog style EQs to be part of the signal chain

[TritoneAddiction]

Ok. I've heard examples of people doing the way you describe. But I've also heard a lot of people doing much of the foundation before doing any mixing at all.
I think over the years I've come across more mixing videos/tutorials working with recorded music instead of electronic music, which might also be why I've heard many people emphasize the do-things-in-the-"correct"-order method.

Perhaps, but I’d still say dialing in a guitar tone counts as sound design. And if you’re into virtual amps, it’s common for analog style EQs to be part of the signal chain

Yeah that’s sound shaping for sure.

[Superology]

You are not the only one. But this approach is better if you want to focus on composition (which is the main thing). Why? Because you don't overwhelm your brain with unnecessary tasks at some stages of production.

P.S. If you are lazy or just want to create some vibes, then, yeah, it's not for you.

Maybe I'm wrong, but you seem to have this idea that production is somehow "unnecessary". I've seen you say something similar before. I mean of course the song writing itself is very important. But with some music, the production and sound selection is like 80% of the entire music. Like with Prodigy for instance, which I know you like.
Heck I've even heard them say in interviews that it's all about creating that vibe. I guess they're "lazy".

I never said it before. And:
1. If Keith Flint said that, don't listen.
2. Liam is a genius of sampling, we are not.

I will say another way: if the composition part of the song sucks you do the same as a creator. Always. Remember this and keep moving.

[Superology]

Composition is 50 % minimum of the whole song. 80% maximum.))

[Superology]

Don't get me wrong, the goal is not to create a very complex composition part of the song, but catchy. You have to think as an artist, as a musician at first. Than the rest. Composition is the main priority. Because of many people don't think so, we have bad music taste in the industry last time. There is no music anymore in the songs today. Of course exceptions exist, but they only prove the rule.

And after you create a good composition for your genre mood etc. the sound design part and others are much easier. In that case you know what you're doing.

I know you will not agree with me right now. At least the most who read it. But that is the question of time. People say that you don't need music theory and blah blah blah, but it's a lie. Face it.

[mcatalao]

I think the order is more important if you are working with other people, so if you have someone mixing and another engineer mastering, you can't do mixing stuff while editing midi or recording your stuff.

Still if I do everything, despite sometimes going front and back i prefer to have a process where first i close up the song and then i go to mixing and mastering.

PS.: I also usually say I'm musician first than anything else. So i like to work on the music first (writting, arranging, recording audio, editing) and then go to mixing and mastering. When i'm writtig midi and editing audio, i like to feel the build of the song, so I usually get some basic levelling and panning done, just to put the stuff where i feel they should go. Some more artistic and creative effects, like a harsh shimmer reverb or a sync'ed delay or a modulated distortion, can go on the midi recording phase, but because they are more "sound design" ideas that i try and decide then.
But most mixing hardwork goes to the mixing phase (eq, dynamics, and so on).

[TritoneAddiction]

Don't get me wrong, the goal is not to create a very complex composition part of the song, but catchy. You have to think as an artist, as a musician at first. Than the rest. Composition is the main priority. Because of many people don't think so, we have bad music taste in the industry last time. There is no music anymore in the songs today. Of course exceptions exist, but they only prove the rule.

And after you create a good composition for your genre mood etc. the sound design part and others are much easier. In that case you know what you're doing.

I know you will not agree with me right now. At least the most who read it. But that is the question of time. People say that you don't need music theory and blah blah blah, but it's a lie. Face it.

I don't really disagree or agree. I think there are many ways to create good music. And the one you decribe is perfectly fine and valid. I don't really believe there is any best way to do things.
In the past I used to do more strict composition / song writing first, then production, like you described. And it worked out fine. So I'm certainly not against that method. But over time I've just naturally moved towards doing song writing and sound sculpting simultaneously. In my view the two go hand in hand anyway. I don't seperate between them as much. A particular sound can inspire a melody. And likewise a melody can inspire a particular sound choice.

Yes music theory is good. It helps. But I don't think it's necessary to write good music. I'm saying that as someone who knows music theory.

Anyway you do what works best for you. It's art after all. We're free to create however we want.

[integerpoet]

I know you will not agree with me right now. At least the most who read it. But that is the question of time. People say that you don't need music theory and blah blah blah, but it's a lie. Face it.

My limited experience is that you have three options:

1. be born a savant
2. learn some theory
3. struggle for decades

Me, I've done #3 and am just now starting #2 after having married a professor.

[crimsonwarlock]

... married a professor.

Best career move ever

[Superology]

Don't get me wrong, the goal is not to create a very complex composition part of the song, but catchy. You have to think as an artist, as a musician at first. Than the rest. Composition is the main priority. Because of many people don't think so, we have bad music taste in the industry last time. There is no music anymore in the songs today. Of course exceptions exist, but they only prove the rule.

And after you create a good composition for your genre mood etc. the sound design part and others are much easier. In that case you know what you're doing.

I know you will not agree with me right now. At least the most who read it. But that is the question of time. People say that you don't need music theory and blah blah blah, but it's a lie. Face it.

I don't really disagree or agree. I think there are many ways to create good music. And the one you decribe is perfectly fine and valid. I don't really believe there is any best way to do things.
In the past I used to do more strict composition / song writing first, then production, like you described. And it worked out fine. So I'm certainly not against that method. But over time I've just naturally moved towards doing song writing and sound sculpting simultaneously. In my view the two go hand in hand anyway. I don't seperate between them as much. A particular sound can inspire a melody. And likewise a melody can inspire a particular sound choice.

Yes music theory is good. It helps. But I don't think it's necessary to write good music. I'm saying that as someone who knows music theory.

Anyway you do what works best for you. It's art after all. We're free to create however we want.

It works best for everyone, but whatever...

[WarStar]

I used to do some mixing while writing and I sure as hell tried to make that method work but I just found that making mixing decisions really distracted from the creative aspect.. I will do basic LP/HP eq and if I need to side chain a kick and bass I'll do that as well but I try to keep it at a minimum.. as far as hunting for presets or doing some sound design while writing, I've made it a habit to already pick out patches that I already like the vibe and so filter out patches that I know I'll probably never use.. so that streamed line things for picking complimentary patches and sounds.. so I will try to pick patches that I vibe with just to get the song writing process going.. so I have a huge favorite lists of pretty much all vst/re patches and categorize them by the conventional, bass, lead, arp, etc.. that alone has saved me so much time..

But at that point, once I've feel that the composition is where I want it, then I do all the detailed mixing.. I do mix into a limiter just to see what small details pop up due to limiting..

I'll do a hybrid stem type mastering I guess.. I always mix down kick and bass last though, so sometimes I'll keep kick/bass in MIDI during mixing while everything else is mixed down to wav.. I then I'll mix down to stems and master from there.. I especially like having control of bass and kick during mastering..

[dvdrtldg]

There is no music anymore in the songs today. Of course exceptions exist, but they only prove the rule.

*groan, facepalm*