What's Happened To Songwriting

[Creativemind]

Hi All!

Was just watching Sigrid performing her latest song on a Nord (but it wasn't) kind of piano on tv, just her and the electric piano.

I noticed (which is common these days) how she never ever deviated from the same 4 chords throughout the entire song. Seems to be common practice now in a lot of songs I hear. She just changed the rhythm of the piano playing and the vocal melody obviously changed. It's a good song though, I will share it. Just feels like lazy songwriting these days, no bridge or change in chords and not as clever as they used to be in comparison to The Beatles, Elton John, KC & the Sunshine Band or Chic etc. Those artists songs to me have a much more memorable melody to their hits too. It's almost like all modern songs sound like they could be written by the same person.

I remember seeing a video about 3 or 4 years ago on You Tube saying that songs have less emphasis on creating a memorable melody now and Rick Beato had mentioned this on his channel too.

Thanks.

[Timmy Crowne]

I think it’s marketability. Songwriters have noticed that the songs that consistently do the biggest numbers are simple songs with 4 triads on a loop. This regularity makes them akin to Lego bricks; they can be inserted anywhere. I’ve never heard of Sigrid, but I can envision this song as a radio pop hit, or an EDM remix, or an American Idol cover (or the background music that’s played when a group of singers celebrate advancing to the next round), or the end of a Grey’s Anatomy episode, or an anthem for some new sociopolitical ad. It all works.

[guitfnky]

I do think it's laziness, but it's not only on the songwriter...it's a cycle of reinforcement between listeners and musicians. listeners are lazy as f*ck these days, and most musicians don't actually challenge the listener, because if you can't start humming along to the topline melody after the second listen (or even better, within the first few bars of the first), they're just going to skip it.

obviously there are going to be differences by genre, but if you're talking about anything mainstream, it pays to be as formulaic as possible. it's pretty infuriating to people like myself, and others like me, who take their craft extremely seriously (and to toot my own horn a little, I think I've become pretty good at it over the years), to witness the constant dumbing down of mainstream music. it's at a point where I'm starting to wonder how much dumber we can possibly get with our music. I guess that's why I've always steered far from most mainstream music--especially in the last 15-20 years. where are the Radioheads, the Queens, the Led Zeppelins of today? everything is just so f*cking boring. the biggest irony is that it's absolutely possible to create really good, interesting music that's got great, unexpected, catchy hooks, without resorting to the same musical tropes people have been constantly mining since the dawn of radio.

someone here mentioned Mozart in another thread yesterday--in the context of what he would do were he alive today--and I had to laugh, because no matter what kind of music Mozart would make in today's environment, with today's tools...he would not be a popular composer. not saying he might not find success, but he would almost certainly not reach the level of popularity of say a Taylor Swift, let alone cultural icon status...because he actually gave a shit about music, and didn't treat his listeners like idiots.

alright, alright, I'm done...end rant...

[Creativemind]

Although Taylor Swift maybe isn't comparable to The Beatles, she ain't bad in some respects. I remember when I was waiting on in 2019 and clearing tables, Shake It Off came on and it sure got me boogieing.

Sigrid is Norwegian btw, first heard of her in 2018 I think and the best sing she's got is Strangers. She does at least write her own songs, just her and a piano I think.

Here is an acoustic piano version of Strangers. It's a great song. The production on the official released version is kinda edm'd up though with a Europa style gritty stuttering bass line and I still think it sounds produced well and not too destracted with this modern edm'd sound but some of her other songs (seeing as they're written just her singing on a piano I think) are very deviated away from that raw her and just a piano sound. I did listen to one of hers a couple of years ago and thought, I would just like to hear that song with just her, a piano, a real bass player, just a mic'd up real drum kit, maybe some strings and backing singers.

Edit - missing lyric at the end of line 2, "it starts to rain and we".

[WarStar]

I've never been a mainstream music guy but I think alot of it comes down to how short songs are time wise.. you get more money the more songs you can fit into a hour long radio time slot. The 90s had alot of corny mainstream electronic pop dance songs that were 5min+ time wise.. they were very repetitive but usually the bridge/breakdown was pretty long.. it's kind feedback loop when it comes to radio play music.. Record companies to bands/artists to radio/consumers.. Labels focus group listeners and then artists-song writers adapt to radio play trends and so on and so on.. it's almost a subconscious type thing it seems at least with pop music..

[mimidancer]

Hi All!

Was just watching Sigrid performing her latest song on a Nord (but it wasn't) kind of piano on tv, just her and the electric piano.

I noticed (which is common these days) how she never ever deviated from the same 4 chords throughout the entire song. Seems to be common practice now in a lot of songs I hear. She just changed the rhythm of the piano playing and the vocal melody obviously changed. It's a good song though, I will share it. Just feels like lazy songwriting these days, no bridge or change in chords and not as clever as they used to be in comparison to The Beatles, Elton John, KC & the Sunshine Band or Chic etc. Those artists songs to me have a much more memorable melody to their hits too. It's almost like all modern songs sound like they could be written by the same person.

I remember seeing a video about 3 or 4 years ago on You Tube saying that songs have less emphasis on creating a memorable melody now and Rick Beato had mentioned this on his channel too.

Thanks.

What is funny to me is that the number of producers I watch that only work diatonically. Powerful music production tools are available to the masses. That does not mean that most people are capable of writing beyond a basic level. The music business today is more about selling a band or image than it is about music. They do not develop artists. Looking back through modern music history you will see artists that were given two or three albums to develop. Now they just crank out the same cheese over and over. I'm all over the place here. But please when you are recording give me a thoughtful solo and more than 4 chords.

[selig]

One problem is we compare the time tested hits of yesterday against 'everything' coming out today. I remember PLENTY of mindless repetitive crap back in the 60-70s, but I tuned it out over the years and now just remember the 'good stuff'.
There was a study of complexity in music done recently, focusing on chord changes, and found This Is America by Childish Gambino to be one of the most harmonically complex songs over the past decades.
This is according to a recent study published in the journal Frontiers in Human Neuroscience that analyzes Billboard hits from 1958 to 2019.
https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2021/08/ ... udy-finds/

All to say, I guess it depends on what you want to define as "these days" and "lazy songwriting", and IMO there has always been lazy songwriting. It's also common for folks to say that today's (fill in the blank) isn't as good as it was back in the good old days. Dan Levitin's This Is Your Brain On Music explains this well in the section where he discusses why songs we hear as a teen are so cemented into our consciousness as great songs and why in turn 'modern' songs don't tend to hold up as well.

[SuperStellartones]

Four chord songs that cycle are hardly a modern phenomenon. I'm sure you can find hundreds of songs from the last 50 years that do this... and great ones too, including songs from the Beatles and Elton John.

[rootwheel]

It's almost like all modern songs sound like they could be written by the same person.

I'll go you one further and suggest it sounds like all modern songs are written by an advanced AI which has been tasked by its corporate masters with hypnotising humans through hyped but predictable melodies, stupor-inducing repetition, and hyperbolic but phony emotion.

I believe the overconsumption of such product by the populace creates a state where behaviour becomes more predictable and the likelihood, nay the capability of independent thought becomes increasingly unlikely. This is probably by design.

[selig]

It's almost like all modern songs sound like they could be written by the same person.

I'll go you one further and suggest it sounds like all modern songs are written by an advanced AI which has been tasked by its corporate masters with hypnotising humans through hyped but predictable melodies, stupor-inducing repetition, and hyperbolic but phony emotion.

I believe the overconsumption of such product by the populace creates a state where behaviour becomes more predictable and the likelihood, nay the capability of independent thought becomes increasingly unlikely. This is probably by design.

I go you one even further and suggest that when AI EVENTUALLY takes over all songwriting (possibly in our lifetime at the current rate), it will be far worse than what we have today…

[rootwheel]

I'll go you one further and suggest it sounds like all modern songs are written by an advanced AI which has been tasked by its corporate masters with hypnotising humans through hyped but predictable melodies, stupor-inducing repetition, and hyperbolic but phony emotion.

I believe the overconsumption of such product by the populace creates a state where behaviour becomes more predictable and the likelihood, nay the capability of independent thought becomes increasingly unlikely. This is probably by design.

I go you one even further and suggest that when AI EVENTUALLY takes over all songwriting (possibly in our lifetime at the current rate), it will be far worse than what we have today…

“The tune had been haunting London for weeks past. It was one of countless similar songs published for the benefit of the proles by a sub-section of the Music Department. The words of these songs were composed without any human intervention whatever on an instrument known as a versificator. But the woman sang so tunefully as to turn the dreadful rubbish into an almost pleasant sound.”

George Orwell - 1984

[Aosta]

Many Beatles songs are pretty damn simple yet they still grab people and are still seen as some of the greatest 'modern' music created.

[Creativemind]

I'll go you one further and suggest it sounds like all modern songs are written by an advanced AI which has been tasked by its corporate masters with hypnotising humans through hyped but predictable melodies, stupor-inducing repetition, and hyperbolic but phony emotion.

I believe the overconsumption of such product by the populace creates a state where behaviour becomes more predictable and the likelihood, nay the capability of independent thought becomes increasingly unlikely. This is probably by design.

I go you one even further and suggest that when AI EVENTUALLY takes over all songwriting (possibly in our lifetime at the current rate), it will be far worse than what we have today…

What a scary thought.

Bit like that thing they say, if you give a monkey a typewriter and enough time...

[Creativemind]

Now they just crank out the same cheese over and over. I'm all over the place here. But please when you are recording give me a thoughtful solo and more than 4 chords.

Yeah Ed Sheeran springs to mind. He was good at first but now just churns out the same stuff 10 years later. Although, just cause it's 4 chords though doesn't mean it's boring. With the right vocal melody over the top and right production. Here's an example:-

[mimidancer]

Now they just crank out the same cheese over and over. I'm all over the place here. But please when you are recording give me a thoughtful solo and more than 4 chords.

Yeah Ed Sheeran springs to mind. He was good at first but now just churns out the same stuff 10 years later. Although, just cause it's 4 chords though doesn't mean it's boring. With the right vocal melody over the top and right production. Here's an example:-

I was thinking of a different song. sorry still good and more than 4 chords if you count the G/F#. I am going to because i want to win.

[rootwheel]

Many Beatles songs are pretty damn simple yet they still grab people and are still seen as some of the greatest 'modern' music created.

The Beatles were melodic geniuses who had real integrity. With their later albums they also transformed the pop music landscape. Their music was exquisitely smart even when it sounded simple. They spent hours in the studio 'til they got a song's execution right. Modern music and its soulless production techniques simply cannot compete with that level of hard work and craftsmanship:

https://www.benjamingroff.com/blog/10-r ... -right-now

[orthodox]

Several reasons for what is happening:
1) Laziness of the artists. You don't really have to work hard to make things sell, and good melody is no longer among the main factors for success.
2) Optimization of the musical industry. Investing in a highly artistic creative process is costly and risky. While you can pick up just anyone from the crowd for promotion, provided they match the current trends.
3) Degradation of people's emotional perception. As melodic forms reflect the diversity of human emotions, the lack of demand for melodies indicates fundamental shifts in human interaction. That may have to do with the new means of communication that have supplanted direct communication, or that complex emotions tend to be avoided as something that could disturb our inner comfort. In the absence of need, emotions as a language die off.

[MrFigg]

Just because there’s crap music in the radio and in the charts doesn’t mean there’s a decline in music lovers. There’s pop songs I really like which probably fall into the lazy category.

[guitfnky]

the Beatles are emblematic of the fact that music doesn't need to be overtly complex for it to have a ton of depth. that's why the consistently diminishing quality of most mainstream music is baffling to me. and I very deliberately separate the term pop music from mainstream music. there are still plenty of great artists in every genre, including pop. but the overall quality of mainstream music is dumber and lazier than I think it's ever been.

[Chizmata]

Hi All!

Was just watching Sigrid performing her latest song on a Nord (but it wasn't) kind of piano on tv, just her and the electric piano.

I noticed (which is common these days) how she never ever deviated from the same 4 chords throughout the entire song. Seems to be common practice now in a lot of songs I hear. She just changed the rhythm of the piano playing and the vocal melody obviously changed. It's a good song though, I will share it. Just feels like lazy songwriting these days, no bridge or change in chords and not as clever as they used to be in comparison to The Beatles, Elton John, KC & the Sunshine Band or Chic etc. Those artists songs to me have a much more memorable melody to their hits too. It's almost like all modern songs sound like they could be written by the same person.

I remember seeing a video about 3 or 4 years ago on You Tube saying that songs have less emphasis on creating a memorable melody now and Rick Beato had mentioned this on his channel too.

Thanks.

my first impression of female pop singers is always how almost all of them use the exact same voice and singing style. i cant even tell if it isnt always the same person.

[rootwheel]

my first impression of female pop singers is always how almost all of them use the exact same voice and singing style. i cant even tell if it isnt always the same person.

Which is why I suggested, tongue in cheek, that AI is already writing these big dumb hit songs and creating these so-called artists

[jlgrimes]

Hi All!

Was just watching Sigrid performing her latest song on a Nord (but it wasn't) kind of piano on tv, just her and the electric piano.

I noticed (which is common these days) how she never ever deviated from the same 4 chords throughout the entire song. Seems to be common practice now in a lot of songs I hear. She just changed the rhythm of the piano playing and the vocal melody obviously changed. It's a good song though, I will share it. Just feels like lazy songwriting these days, no bridge or change in chords and not as clever as they used to be in comparison to The Beatles, Elton John, KC & the Sunshine Band or Chic etc. Those artists songs to me have a much more memorable melody to their hits too. It's almost like all modern songs sound like they could be written by the same person.

I remember seeing a video about 3 or 4 years ago on You Tube saying that songs have less emphasis on creating a memorable melody now and Rick Beato had mentioned this on his channel too.

Thanks.

Probably just a trend but I think it also has to do with how easily accessible music equipment is nowadays.

20-30 years ago it was harder to get a full blown studio so people put more time into mastering their limited tools and it carried over into songwriting. Alot of the bigger songwriters of yesteryear had such mastery of theory. Someone like Babyface could write plenty of catchy stuff but still with a deep amount of theory in the background.

But at some point people will crave for more variety in scales, chords etc.

[jam-s]

I've never been a mainstream music guy but I think alot of it comes down to how short songs are time wise.. you get more money the more songs you can fit into a hour long radio time slot. The 90s had alot of corny mainstream electronic pop dance songs that were 5min+ time wise.. they were very repetitive but usually the bridge/breakdown was pretty long.. it's kind feedback loop when it comes to radio play music.. Record companies to bands/artists to radio/consumers.. Labels focus group listeners and then artists-song writers adapt to radio play trends and so on and so on.. it's almost a subconscious type thing it seems at least with pop music..

The standard length for radio mix versions is about 3-4 minutes. Most stations filter out longer or much shorter tracks or move them to special interest programs or the night rotation.

[Creativemind]

Hi All!

Was just watching Sigrid performing her latest song on a Nord (but it wasn't) kind of piano on tv, just her and the electric piano.

I noticed (which is common these days) how she never ever deviated from the same 4 chords throughout the entire song. Seems to be common practice now in a lot of songs I hear. She just changed the rhythm of the piano playing and the vocal melody obviously changed. It's a good song though, I will share it. Just feels like lazy songwriting these days, no bridge or change in chords and not as clever as they used to be in comparison to The Beatles, Elton John, KC & the Sunshine Band or Chic etc. Those artists songs to me have a much more memorable melody to their hits too. It's almost like all modern songs sound like they could be written by the same person.

I remember seeing a video about 3 or 4 years ago on You Tube saying that songs have less emphasis on creating a memorable melody now and Rick Beato had mentioned this on his channel too.

Thanks.

Probably just a trend but I think it also has to do with how easily accessible music equipment is nowadays.

20-30 years ago it was harder to get a full blown studio so people put more time into mastering their limited tools and it carried over into songwriting. Alot of the bigger songwriters of yesteryear had such mastery of theory. Someone like Babyface could write plenty of catchy stuff but still with a deep amount of theory in the background.

But at some point people will crave for more variety in scales, chords etc.

Actually some of the best songwriters didn't know any theory - Paul McCartney, John Lennon and Noel Gallagher to name just three. They just knew how to write more interesting chord structures and stuff.

[guitfnky]

theory isn't necessary to create deep music. it's all just experimentation. FAFO.