What's Happened To Songwriting

[Creativemind]

I noticed (which is common these days) how she never ever deviated from the same 4 chords throughout the entire song.

4 chords? Every pop song ever! Obligatory:

Looks like subtitles may not show up anymore on this "early YouTube" video. Here's the songs all done in the same 4 chords (in other words, this is not a unique phenomena in pop music):

Journey - Don't Stop Believing

James Blunt - You're Beautiful

Alphaville - Forever Young

Jason Mraz - I'm Yours

Mika - Happy Ending

Alex Lloyd - Amazing

The Calling - Wherever You WIll Go

Elton John - Can You Feel The Love Tonight

Maroon 5 - She Will Be Loved

The Last Goodnight - Pictures Of You

U2 - With Or Without You

Crowded House - Fall At Your Feet

Kasey Chambers - Not Pretty Enough

The Beatles - Let it Be

Red Hot Chili Peppers - Under the Bridge

Daryl Braithwaite - The Horses

Bob Marley - No Woman No Cry

Marcy Playground - Sex and Candy

Men At Work - Land Down Under

Banjo Patterson's Waltzing Matilda

A Ha - Take On Me

Green Day - When I Come Around

Eagle Eye Cherry - Save Tonight

Toto - Africa

Beyonce - If I Were A Boy

The Offspring - Self Esteem

The Offspring - You're Gonna Go Far Kid

Pink - You and Your Hand

Lady Gaga - Poker Face

Aqua - Barbie Girl

The Fray - You Found Me

30h!3 - Don't Trust Me

MGMT - Kids

Tim Minchin - Canvas Bags

Natalie Imbruglia - Torn

Five For Fighting - Superman

Axis Of Awesome - Birdplane

Missy Higgins - Scar

But nearly all those songs if not all of them, don't just have the same 4 chords all the way through, they do have a bridge with a different chord sequence which is the point I was originally making.

[Paralytik]

Many interesting thoughts here.

I agree on the general feeling of that music is becoming "dumbed down", but I think many of you are missing out on an important point. The modern pop/mainstream market is also influencing the artists themselves in a feedback loop, thus creating more desire from people who wants to make music to sound like their pop idols that are played on the radio. With younger people growing up on this modern pop style, maybe with no connection at all to classic bands from the 60s-90s, I can only see it as a natural consequence.
Of course, this is not true for all modern pop artists, but I think you get my point.

As an example, let's take a look at another Norwegian artist, Aurora (age 25). She writes her own music and lyrics too, and her Wikipedia page states a slew of influences ranging from The Beatles to Gojira. Still, the music she wants to make falls very much within the modern pop genre, and who can stop her from doing that, if that's what she wants to do?

Here are some musical examples.

This is from her EP "Running with the Wolves" from 2015. Pretty mellow, with heartfelt poetic lyrics, but still a very clean mainstream pop production. Personally, I think it is a lot more interesting than the ultra-commercial throwaway stuff a lot of other artists are making.

A couple of years later, she released the song "Animal" on her album "A Different Kind of Human - Step 2", from 2019. This one is a full on pop banger and got tons of radio play, both in Norway and internationally. Not as interesting, musically, as the first example, but I can see the appeal.

Going further to today, this is "Exhale Inhale", song 9 out of 15 from her 3rd official album, "The Gods We Can Touch" released the 21st of January this year (2022). The melody, harmony, general voice leading and arrangement is excellent in my opinion, seen in a pop context.

Lastly, I want to include an example which is not a pop song. This is "Helvegen" by the Norwegian band Wardruna, with Aurora singing. The song is about death, dying and remembering those who has passed on. Absolutely beautiful performance.

So, in my opinion, it's obvious that Aurora has a very strong musical integrity and talent, even though I'm not a big fan of the style she is mostly doing (modern pop music). I think a common problem with this type of music is that most people who listen to it, do not necessarily listen to (or buy) the entire album, they only pick and choose the "hits" that they are exposed to the most, and in consequence, miss out on a lot of really good music. This pick and choose mentality is the backbone of Spotify's, and other streaming services', business model, so it's not really surprising that this is being perpetuated ad nauseam.

I definitely think it's a big issue, but I have no clue about how (or even if) this pattern can be broken. Corporate greed is a very real thing in today's music business, unfortunately.

I guess my main point is that there's definitely still people making good, interesting and musically "complex" stuff, it's just seemingly much harder to find it, since it gets no exposure in the mainstream.

[EnochLight]

Lastly, I want to include an example which is not a pop song. This is "Helvegen" by the Norwegian band Wardruna, with Aurora singing.

True story: I had tickets to a Wardruna show in Oslo and a flight booked to Norway right before COVID hit. Had planned this show after missing them in the US at a show the year before. Sooooo disappointed we had to cancel.

I guess my main point is that there's definitely still people making good, interesting and musically "complex" stuff, it's just seemingly much harder to find it, since it gets no exposure in the mainstream.

I literally just had this discussion with IRL friends last night. There is SOOOO much good music out there, still happening, by young and upcoming artists. I swore I’d never become the “back in my day” old person, and so far I’m doing pretty good.

[guitfnky]

I literally just had this discussion with IRL friends last night. There is SOOOO much good music out there, still happening, by young and upcoming artists. I swore I’d never become the “back in my day” old person, and so far I’m doing pretty good.

it’s really helpful to have adopt these views early in life—it was never good in my lifetime, so I’ve never felt the inclination to say “back in my day”. it’s just that the decline’s been continual.

[guitfnky]

DEP is one band I’ve still got to get into. I like some crazy stuff, like Carbomb. But the frantic math rock vibe isn’t something I ever got into.

they’re definitely a difficult band to get into (at least they were for me). I bought Calculating Infinity, and tried to get into that, but just couldn’t. years later it took Ire Works and seeing that they’re not always about being difficult for difficulty’s sake. the contrast between crazy and accessible on that album allowed me to appreciate the crazy more.

[avasopht]

Brevity is wit

[selig]

4 chords? Every pop song ever! Obligatory:

Technically, that’s one more chord than you need if you substitute “the truth” for one of the chords…
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Cho ... _the_Truth]

[EnochLight]

Technically, that’s one more chord than you need if you substitute “the truth” for one of the chords…

[ravasb]

I agree with those who hate the phrase, "back in my day." If you woke up today, then today is your day, too.

[orthodox]

I agree with those who hate the phrase, "back in my day." If you woke up today, then today is your day, too.

I wake up every day (well, almost) and when I turn on the radio, my day today is paler than my day back in early days.

[dvdrtldg]

It's amazing how little has changed while so much has changed. Pop music is the same today as it ever was - good stuff, terrible stuff, complex stuff, simple stuff, smart stuff, dumbed down stuff. There have always been "lazy" songwriters churning out formulaic industry product, and a smaller number of artists doing original and inspiring work. And none of it has ever had anything to do with the number of chords used

The big difference today is that while there used to be one gigantic industry that called pretty much all the shots regarding what got played on the radio, what got favourably reviewed in the media, and what got distributed to your local record store & when, now it's just a case of everything being everywhere all the time. Add to that the fact that technology has delivered studio quality music-making tools into the hands of anyone with a bit of cash, and you've got a situation where there's just this giant firehose of music being produced and released 24/7 on a bewildering array of platforms. Nobody can keep up with it, nobody can get on top of it, it's insane

It's also really fucking cool. There's more amazing music out there right now than at any previous point in history, and whatever you're into, there's someone producing it. Anyone who thinks that songwriting today isn't as good as it used to be just isn't looking hard enough

[selig]

I agree with those who hate the phrase, "back in my day." If you woke up today, then today is your day, too.

I wake up every day (well, almost) and when I turn on the radio, my day today is paler than my day back in early days.

Dan Levitin actually explains this quite well (why did music sound better ‘back in my day’) in “This is your Brain on Music”.

What I HAVE noticed is that every pop song uses the SAME 12 notes as every other pop song. Every. Pop. Song. Ever.
Check it out, seriously!

[Paralytik]

What I HAVE noticed is that every pop song uses the SAME 12 notes as every other pop song. Every. Pop. Song. Ever.
Check it out, seriously!

You cheeky bastard, haha.

[guitfnky]

Anyone who thinks that songwriting today isn't as good as it used to be just isn't looking hard enough

for me, this is the exact source of frustration. it's getting more and more difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff, but not because there are so many more people making music, but because so many of them are lazy about it. to put it another way, it's not about how much good or bad music is being put out, it's about the proportion of good to bad.

[selig]

Anyone who thinks that songwriting today isn't as good as it used to be just isn't looking hard enough

for me, this is the exact source of frustration. it's getting more and more difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff, but not because there are so many more people making music, but because so many of them are lazy about it. to put it another way, it's not about how much good or bad music is being put out, it's about the proportion of good to bad.

I’m not sure I’m following. Today there are likely just as many folks writing bad music as at any time in history. If there’s a difference today, it’s WHO is “putting out” the music. It used to be record labels putting up the money and putting out the music. But today, EVERYBODY can “put out” music. So while I agree it’s not JUST because many more people are making music, it’s because more music is being put out. So yes, it’s the proportion that’s being “put out” that has changed, and there is no evidence I’m aware of that the quality of good vs bad has changed in any way, or that somehow songwriters are being ‘lazy’ about it (happy to be corrected here).
But there IS very much evidence we are hearing deeper into the mass of ALL music created, which means deeper into the crap IMO!
Or if you want to talk about lazy, it’s the non song writers that are “lazy”, the folks that would not otherwise be putting out ANY music without technical assistance, meaning the folks we never heard from in the past.
Bottom line IMO, there ARE more people making music, and the increase comes from the bottom (the less skilled, thus more ‘lazy’), not from the top!

[EnochLight]

But there IS very much evidence we are hearing deeper into the mass of ALL music created, which means deeper into the crap IMO!

Pretty sure this is the crux of the issue. Essentially the democratization of music production/distribution has created two realities which are true:

1. The entire world now has easy (easier) and affordable (comparatively) access to producing music from start to finish, including distribution worldwide, causing a massive amount of music to appear that wouldn't have been possible 20-30 years ago.

2. This increases the amount of crap that's out there, as well as the gems.

Alas, it's wading through everything - especially with "option overload", that's the challenge. That said, I truly believe - as a content creator (whether it's writing/producing music, or video, or whatever) there has never been a better time to be alive.

[MarkTarlton]

I agree with most all the points being made here, one thing that stands out to me is the variety of artists and music that used to exist as well as originality was more eclectic. Of course there's always been trends and followers of those, but look at like the 1980 top 100 compared to now, and that's just one example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard ... es_of_1980

[guitfnky]

for me, this is the exact source of frustration. it's getting more and more difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff, but not because there are so many more people making music, but because so many of them are lazy about it. to put it another way, it's not about how much good or bad music is being put out, it's about the proportion of good to bad.

I’m not sure I’m following. Today there are likely just as many folks writing bad music as at any time in history. If there’s a difference today, it’s WHO is “putting out” the music. It used to be record labels putting up the money and putting out the music. But today, EVERYBODY can “put out” music. So while I agree it’s not JUST because many more people are making music, it’s because more music is being put out. So yes, it’s the proportion that’s being “put out” that has changed, and there is no evidence I’m aware of that the quality of good vs bad has changed in any way, or that somehow songwriters are being ‘lazy’ about it (happy to be corrected here).
But there IS very much evidence we are hearing deeper into the mass of ALL music created, which means deeper into the crap IMO!
Or if you want to talk about lazy, it’s the non song writers that are “lazy”, the folks that would not otherwise be putting out ANY music without technical assistance, meaning the folks we never heard from in the past.
Bottom line IMO, there ARE more people making music, and the increase comes from the bottom (the less skilled, thus more ‘lazy’), not from the top!

I think this presupposes that less experienced musicians are by definition less capable of making interesting music. that’s an assumption I wholeheartedly disagree with. it may not be as polished, but that doesn’t mean it has to sound basic or uninteresting.

the biggest problem with what I see as lazy songwriting is over-reliance on what you call technical assistance. strict adherence to “the rules”, whether you mean music theory or technical recording skills puts people on a path straight to sounding like everyone else.

and it’s a <choice> that anyone can make at any stage in their music making journey, whether it’s their first day putting two notes together or they’ve been doing it for 50 years. the difference with the guy/girl who starts playing around with the rules after 50 years is that they’ve already got 50 years behind them, and likely have a pretty solid musical identity already.

so yes, music is more democratized, and that’s great, but that doesn’t mean even the first things you write and put on the internet have to sound like stuff that’s been done before. but if you follow tutorials on how to make a song that sounds like XYZ artist, and people like your song, you start getting rewarded for sounding like XYZ, and you’re not careful, you’re going to end up making a bunch of tired music that sounds like someone else instead of you.

the whole thing kind of blows my mind, really, because it’s a thousand times easier to start making music and sound like YOU than it is to have to learn how to sound like someone else, even if they are your favorite artists. yet, I’d wager the vast majority of people getting into music choose the harder path. but if there’s anything I’ve learned in my life, it’s that we human beings are incredibly strange.

anyhoo, in case it’s not already abundantly clear, I think music that sounds as unique as the person creating it is generally less lazy than trying to paint by numbers. maybe I’m being too specific in my definition, I dunno.

this doesn’t really do my thoughts on the topic justice either. trying to explain my views on this in a few paragraphs is simply impossible for me, but hopefully you see where I’m coming from.

[dvdrtldg]

I agree with most all the points being made here, one thing that stands out to me is the variety of artists and music that used to exist as well as originality was more eclectic. Of course there's always been trends and followers of those, but look at like the 1980 top 100 compared to now, and that's just one example.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billboard ... es_of_1980

But my point is, the Top 100 today is a complete irrelevance. Sure, maybe the big unit-shifting artists are starting to sound more like each other, but who cares? Down at the grassroots, there's more eclecticism and originality than ever before

I agree about the crap-to-gold ratio - where the problem used to be "How do I find the good stuff?", today it's "How do I filter out all the terrible stuff?"

But filtering isn't that much of a problem. People like to talk about the good old days when they could go into some obscure import or second hand record store and dig through the crates to find hidden gems. That was a labour of love. And yet somehow the notion of spending a couple of exploratory hours on Bandcamp or googling music blogs is a bridge too far

The truth is that most people's sense of musical adventurism & openness to new styles trails off around age 30, and their idea of The Best Music of All Time tends to be formed a decade or so earlier. It's why you get so many boomers spouting the absurd notion that nothing - NOTHING - will ever be as good as the Beatles/Stones/Floyd/etc, as though insanely creative & talented musicians stopped being made in 1964. My theory is that for many of these people, "Music these days is terrible" really just means "I wish I was 19 again"

[selig]

I think this presupposes that less experienced musicians are by definition less capable of making interesting music. that’s an assumption I wholeheartedly disagree with. it may not be as polished, but that doesn’t mean it has to sound basic or uninteresting.

Not at all! I find less experienced musicians are just as capable of making interesting music, apologies if I gave that impression.
It’s not about experience at all, in fact. But let me start by saying I don’t agree there is ANY problem with songwriting today, there is just as much greatness (and crap)v as there ever has been. I remember hearing crap in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. And I still hear crap today. But what I call crap may be the most amazing thing to others, so there’s that.
The only difference I see is today we get to hear MORE of the crap that previously would never have been possible to hear in years past.

[Auryn]

To me it seems that with the advent of rap and EDM in the 90ies as major aspects of popular music, the emphasis was just shifted from writing songs with verse/bridge/chorus type structure to a more freeform type of writing tracks, where rhythm and sound design (and for rap, well written lyrics) started getting more attention than what is classically understood to be songwriting. The advent and popularization of EDM also brought along with it a new focus on repetition and hypnosis. Chord changes can be quite jarring in that case (e.g. 'Cowgirl' by Underworld wouldn't be improved by adding chord changes IMHO)

[selig]

To me it seems that with the advent of rap and EDM in the 90ies as major aspects of popular music, the emphasis was just shifted from writing songs with verse/bridge/chorus type structure to a more freeform type of writing tracks, where rhythm and sound design (and for rap, well written lyrics) started getting more attention than what is classically understood to be songwriting. The advent and popularization of EDM also brought along with it a new focus on repetition and hypnosis. Chord changes can be quite jarring in that case (e.g. 'Cowgirl' by Underworld wouldn't be improved by adding chord changes IMHO)

Great point, very much like in the 1960s the emphasis changed from writing verse/chorus songs you could perform on stage to using the studio as an instrument and making sounds/songs you could never perform live. It's always going to be changing, but that's a different subject, right? Or maybe no?

[guitfnky]

I think this presupposes that less experienced musicians are by definition less capable of making interesting music. that’s an assumption I wholeheartedly disagree with. it may not be as polished, but that doesn’t mean it has to sound basic or uninteresting.

Not at all! I find less experienced musicians are just as capable of making interesting music, apologies if I gave that impression.
It’s not about experience at all, in fact. But let me start by saying I don’t agree there is ANY problem with songwriting today, there is just as much greatness (and crap)v as there ever has been. I remember hearing crap in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, etc. And I still hear crap today. But what I call crap may be the most amazing thing to others, so there’s that.
The only difference I see is today we get to hear MORE of the crap that previously would never have been possible to hear in years past.

maybe? but that strikes me as a little bit toe-may-toe toe-mah-toe. that sounds like the same thing I’m saying in the sense that the democratization of music has allowed more music to be put out and more of it tends to be shoddy. goes back to the ratio, not the amount.

I dunno, maybe I’m wrong—I don’t have any statistics on what’s ultimately a subjective thing that can’t really be quantified anyway. I just know it’s harder and harder for me in my own anecdotal experience to sift through the crap and find the quality than it has been at any point in the past. I don’t think I’ve suggested (at least I hope not) that I have any scientific basis for the view.

[avasopht]

To me it seems that with the advent of rap and EDM in the 90ies as major aspects of popular music, the emphasis was just shifted from writing songs with verse/bridge/chorus type structure to a more freeform type of writing tracks, where rhythm and sound design (and for rap, well written lyrics) started getting more attention than what is classically understood to be songwriting. The advent and popularization of EDM also brought along with it a new focus on repetition and hypnosis. Chord changes can be quite jarring in that case (e.g. 'Cowgirl' by Underworld wouldn't be improved by adding chord changes IMHO)

You know ... I was thinking about this while sitting around a campfire at a festival. Each night a dozen or so of us would gather at night and people would take turns at the guitar.

Sometimes there was singing.

But what struck me was what songs worked best in that setting.

Folk songs were an easy win.

It wasn't about how popular a song was, or which song they played the most. Some songs just worked better around a campfire - whether people could sing along or not. And some were better to sing along to (even if everyone knew the lyrics).

[Propellerhands]

Hi All!

Was just watching Sigrid performing her latest song on a Nord (but it wasn't) kind of piano on tv, just her and the electric piano.



Thanks.

Does she create the music or someone else? Do not blame a singer for some ghostproducer doing the "hard work" of song creation. Personally I put modern pop music in two types. "Regular pop" music with verse chorus verse yada yada and to "progressive pop" which is continues build up, like for example progressive house music. So this song fits the proggressive type the most. It is still pop music though. So nothing too much musical (complex) in it just wall of sound, that's it. It is still a catchy song, it is still a good song for all that matters, sometimes I like such tracks myself. I care more about simplicity of music than complexity.

99 percent of modern pop music is this "regular thing". Complexity does not mean better music. Hence Jazz which almost nobody likes except total serial killers (jk). Anyway, pop music is pop for a reason.

P.S.

And piano is most overused and overrated instrument in entire human history. Hate piano.