Music Cannot Be Cloned

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moofi
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Post 12 Nov 2021

Remembering Laura Branigan´s "Self Control" cover version in 1984 being higher ranked in the charts than the original from Raf. Both entered the charts basically simultaneously at the time.

PhillipOrdonez wrote:
12 Nov 2021
Who wants to clone another song that already exists? Obviously it is impossible as you already know, but attempting to do so can result in a new song and that's a great thing. There's much to be learned from trying to emulate your favourite artists and the results will always be you not them. And that's nothing but good in my opinion. I read the article too. 🤷‍♂️

Addendum: if your point is solely on gear and people being paralysed and not making music because they don't have x gear or X technique, that's a completely different matter and I agree with you that gear is not what maketh an artist sound but the way the artist utilises it and how their TASTE influences their decisions.

Edit two: and as a counterpoint to the gear point, here's squarepusher's take on that: http://symbioid.com/pdf/Tech/Collaborat ... ?view=FitH

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Benedict
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Post 13 Nov 2021

just not to the full extent that one should never learn how to reproduce or seek out those signature sounds or effects.

It's just not something that makes much sense at all for some people and what they are trying to achieve.
See, I just never said that in any way, shape, or form. Someone keeps saying it and saying I did but I DID NOT say or imply these things ever. When I try to point that out I get branded with being some sort of petty tyrant. How is that anything approaching a mature conversation?

As for Laura Branigan, I am a fan. She covered (or sang rewrites of) several songs (along with breaking Michael Bolton as a songwriter). Laura didn't ever photocopy anyone's work. Her performances were unique - and often better performed/produced than the originals. I am not sure why that is raised here. Laura meets exactly what I am really saying in these situations.

Look, I am tired of this style of conversation, I have tried to back away a few times, and yet those who want to do whatever it is they think they are doing, keep coming at me. Please stop it as it is not making a better world for any of us. It is hurting me and I am amazed that you either don't see this or see it and keep pushing.

:-(

PhillipOrdonez
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Post 13 Nov 2021

We just can't understand your points. It sounds like you mean one thing but then you mean another. And it sounds like at the end everyone means the very same thing yet we don't realise we are all in agreement here and to you it sounds like we are attacking you, in yet another case of misunderstanding each other.


RT Warning level: 1

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avasopht
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Post 13 Nov 2021

Benedict wrote:
13 Nov 2021
just not to the full extent that one should never learn how to reproduce or seek out those signature sounds or effects.

It's just not something that makes much sense at all for some people and what they are trying to achieve.
See, I just never said that in any way, shape, or form. Someone keeps saying it and saying I did but I DID NOT say or imply these things ever. When I try to point that out I get branded with being some sort of petty tyrant. How is that anything approaching a mature conversation?

As for Laura Branigan, I am a fan. She covered (or sang rewrites of) several songs (along with breaking Michael Bolton as a songwriter). Laura didn't ever photocopy anyone's work. Her performances were unique - and often better performed/produced than the originals. I am not sure why that is raised here. Laura meets exactly what I am really saying in these situations.

Look, I am tired of this style of conversation, I have tried to back away a few times, and yet those who want to do whatever it is they think they are doing, keep coming at me. Please stop it as it is not making a better world for any of us. It is hurting me and I am amazed that you either don't see this or see it and keep pushing.

:-(
Nobody is coming at you.

Or calling you a tyrant.

In the EXACT same way others have interpreted something you never intended is what you've just done.

There are no opponents.

Did you miss all the parts where people have said "yeah, I agree" but also have another perspective.

You seem to be seeing this as some sort of battle when nobody here is actually against you.
---

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jam-s
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Post 13 Nov 2021

It's just a matter of different people here presenting different pieces to the puzzle to get a more complete picture on the topic at hand. It certainly is no competition or battle.
If you're in Aachen, come and visit us at the Voidspace. ... Pool's closed due to corona.

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Creativemind
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Post 13 Nov 2021

The thing is about gear vs vst as well, which is another issue with daw vs hardware is, take Softubes Pultec devices as an example, people buy into a device, oh it's a Pultec, Pultec's are legendary for x, y and z productions or sound or whatever they've heard before, when in actual fact, it's not a Pultec at all, it's 0's and 1's in a computer with a certain algorithm. You get fooled by the name, the idea, the skeumorphic look of it thinking it's a real Pultec when it isn't. That's not to say it isn't closely modelled on it and has a certain sound to it that another device doesn't but it's just a gimmick.
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moofi
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Post 13 Nov 2021

Did it occur to you it being the reason I brought her up? :-)
Benedict wrote:
13 Nov 2021
[...] I am not sure why that is raised here. Laura meets exactly what I am really saying in these situations.

[...]

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bxbrkrz
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Post 13 Nov 2021

Benedict wrote:
12 Nov 2021
Here's another approach. I could show a pic of something like an Andromeda and play these two paired and people would be excited, feeling they needed an Andromeda. It is false (on several levels).

Note how each synth's sound has something unique about it, something strong, something weak. By understanding that and putting them together I have made something lovely. It is only by working with what is in front of me that I can do this properly.



:-)
That sounds fatter than any Moog One vids on YT.
757365206c6f67696320746f207365656b20616e73776572732075736520726561736f6e20746f2066696e6420776973646f6d

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stratatonic
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Post 13 Nov 2021

nickb523 wrote:
12 Nov 2021
1280px-Parque_Eagle_River,_Anchorage,_Alaska,_Estados_Unidos,_2017-09-01,_DD_02.jpg


Give 20 people the exact same tools/materials and ask them to paint the above picture.

In the end you will have 20 completely different paintings. All of which are valid pieces of artwork.

Try as you might to clone/copy. Your fingerprint will still be present.

I think that is Benedict's point. ;)
He agrees with you, yet that is not at all what he wrote in his blog.

He bemoans the fact that people are asking how to get a certain vocal chain, or how this or this was done.

If someone saw that pic you posted (but let’s just say it’s a painting in real life), someone starting out would very well be asking those questions that Benedict says not to:

Oh, what kind of paper did you use?
That’s an interesting kind of paint! Feels ridgy. What are you using? What tools did you use to get that effect?
Oh, wow, how did you get those leaves that particular colour?
I like how that mountain reflects in the water! Is there a way to get it to look good like you did?

But, no. Don’t ask any questions. Just let your muse Create Art. Bullshit.
You need to start somewhere with The Basics.

The point I am making here is that if you think that you can only do your music when you have a) the right instruments and b) the right techniques, the problem will be that you a) will probably not make any music at all, b) will not commit to anything that you do do as you try to make your output be something/someone else. This means that your song never really gets delivered.


If that’s The Point, then I disagree with the whole blog. That makes zero sense.
The right instruments? Yeah, I’d like to know why I can’t rip off a solo like Eddie did, even though our guitars look exactly the same. I’m playing an entry-level guitar that has the strings half an inch above the fretboard and his just hover above the frets. Oh, I’d sure like to know that! Ah! That’s a flanger he used there!
The right techniques? OMG! the dude was TAPPING the strings there? %^$^%$%! Genius. I played that lick for two years and I couldn’t even get to 1/3 the speed that he got!
I don’t think anyone in their right mind would think that now that they have a decent guitar and one of the techniques they know is tapping, is that they’ll will conjure up 1984.

Yet every day I still read person after person asking how to get some exact sound on the assumption that if they get the right plugin and right settings they will be able to morph themselves into David Guetta or whoever is da bomb in the scene these days.


It’s a big-ass assumption to jump to that everyone asking a question on instruments/techniques wants to sound exactly like what/who they are emulating.

Have courage and make your own decisions. Cloning = fail so seeing you can do something different you at least have a chance of catching the attention of a few people who dig wot u done.


Sure, waste your life figuring out shit that you could find out in a few minutes by asking somebody knowledgable.

I read your blog. I disagree with it.

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Benedict
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Post 13 Nov 2021

That is just fucking rude, no two ways about it

I'm OUT. This is over

:-(

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avasopht
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Post 13 Nov 2021

Wow. 🤦🏾‍♂️
---

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selig
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Post 14 Nov 2021

Benedict wrote:
13 Nov 2021
That is just fucking rude, no two ways about it

I'm OUT. This is over

:-(
I found all the comments to be well thought out and presented with respect. Or did I miss something?
:)
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Benedict
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Post 14 Nov 2021

Selig, as a Mod, can you not see that I asked for this to be left? Why not honor that?

Why again do this where you close your eyes to offense given then create more by actually telling me that I a) have no right to acknowledge/respond to offense given and b) should need to sit here whilst you give me directions on how I should feel?

How I feel is very pissed off. Very sad that it is essentially impossible to talk about anything past The Best VST or how buggy Reason 12 is without being sniped at by people who claim to be my peers but act so poorly I'd tell them to eff-off to their face if they dared do that in-person.

Rather than telling me that I am wrong and have no rights here (unless you are prepared to formally tell me to leave - a right you do have), please just do as requested and at least stop all this. I removed the OP indicating I would be happy for the whole, disappointing experience to go away seeing no one benefits from more comments in this.

Why not be honorable and do that?

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DaveyG
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Post 14 Nov 2021

Benedict wrote:
14 Nov 2021
Selig, as a Mod, can you not see that I asked for this to be left? Why not honor that?

Why again do this where you close your eyes to offense given then create more by actually telling me that I a) have no right to acknowledge/respond to offense given and b) should need to sit here whilst you give me directions on how I should feel?

How I feel is very pissed off. Very sad that it is essentially impossible to talk about anything past The Best VST or how buggy Reason 12 is without being sniped at by people who claim to be my peers but act so poorly I'd tell them to eff-off to their face if they dared do that in-person.

Rather than telling me that I am wrong and have no rights here (unless you are prepared to formally tell me to leave - a right you do have), please just do as requested and at least stop all this. I removed the OP indicating I would be happy for the whole, disappointing experience to go away seeing no one benefits from more comments in this.

Why not be honorable and do that?
You should have stuck with "I'm OUT".

If you post stuff on a public forum you should expect a variety of replies, some of which you won't like. That's how it is. I don't really know what else you expected.

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Benedict
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Post 14 Nov 2021

Mr G

You are right in that. As I noted several times already, I was entirely stupid to post this piece here (note I removed it now to try to rectify that sheer hopeful stupidity).

If it hadn't been Selig The Mod I would have stayed out. Note how I stayed out with the jibe that looks to me to be entirely a genderist/homophobic slur (but apparently perfectly benign according to moderators).

Such ill-manners is the nature of the way that the many seem to want to behave so it is entirely wrong of me to expect otherwise. Especially seeing it has happened many times this exact way before.

Perhaps instead of dragging this on where I have already indicated it should be left alone, it can be:

LEFT ALONE - even better Locked or REMOVED

(BTW, if I have to live and let live, which I do, that equally means that others have to live and let live, and yet they do not, and are actually encouraged. Odd that. Something to do with the equality of pigs no doubt. Not new, just stupid humanses)

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Neo
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Location: Melbourne Australia

Post 14 Nov 2021

moofi wrote:
12 Nov 2021
Remembering Laura Branigan´s "Self Control" cover version in 1984 being higher ranked in the charts than the original from Raf. Both entered the charts basically simultaneously at the time.
PhillipOrdonez wrote:
12 Nov 2021
Who wants to clone another song that already exists? Obviously it is impossible as you already know, but attempting to do so can result in a new song and that's a great thing. There's much to be learned from trying to emulate your favourite artists and the results will always be you not them. And that's nothing but good in my opinion. I read the article too. 🤷‍♂️

Addendum: if your point is solely on gear and people being paralysed and not making music because they don't have x gear or X technique, that's a completely different matter and I agree with you that gear is not what maketh an artist sound but the way the artist utilises it and how their TASTE influences their decisions.

Edit two: and as a counterpoint to the gear point, here's squarepusher's take on that: http://symbioid.com/pdf/Tech/Collaborat ... ?view=FitH
Classic releases aswell as Laura Branigans "Gloria" cover of Umberto Tozzis 1979 release.
Was just listening to Falco "Der Kommissar" 1982 and follow up later in the same year After The Fire "Der Kommissar"





Sorry gents.. as you were.
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guitfnky
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Post 14 Nov 2021

wow, fabricating stuff to get indignant about out of whole cloth.

isn’t there enough to complain about in the world (hell, even about our favorite music-making software) that we shouldn’t need to just make shit up?
I write bad music for good people

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muckmclane
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Post 15 Nov 2021

I am far more interested in the subject of emulation, than trying to dissuade people from becoming unoriginal poseurs. I find it very inspiring as an artist, to be in a mode where I want to incorporate a lot of what is around me into my work.

If frustrated condescension was an artform, I would give this a 10 out of 10:

Benedict wrote:
11 Nov 2021
I get the feeling no one actually bothered to read the article (let alone the thread). Oh well, to be expected.

Purple dishwasher monkey
:-(

Here have a silly cat pic instead
Image
Image

PhillipOrdonez
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Post 15 Nov 2021

🤦‍♂️


RT Warning level: 1

🏁

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selig
RE Developer
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Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

Post 15 Nov 2021

Benedict wrote:
14 Nov 2021
Selig, as a Mod, can you not see that I asked for this to be left? Why not honor that?

Why again do this where you close your eyes to offense given then create more by actually telling me that I a) have no right to acknowledge/respond to offense given and b) should need to sit here whilst you give me directions on how I should feel?

How I feel is very pissed off. Very sad that it is essentially impossible to talk about anything past The Best VST or how buggy Reason 12 is without being sniped at by people who claim to be my peers but act so poorly I'd tell them to eff-off to their face if they dared do that in-person.

Rather than telling me that I am wrong and have no rights here (unless you are prepared to formally tell me to leave - a right you do have), please just do as requested and at least stop all this. I removed the OP indicating I would be happy for the whole, disappointing experience to go away seeing no one benefits from more comments in this.

Why not be honorable and do that?
Dude, where did I do ANYTHING you say above? I saw no offense but am totally welcoming of any specific examples of folks breaking forum rules.
Where the heck did I say you have no rights to respond however you like? I gave no instructions to you or anyone else, certainly none about how to feel.
Which post was sniping at you? Which post was an example of acting poorly?
Where did I tell you that you were wrong or have no rights here?
Please understand, I’m asked if I missed something, and you have not been able to point me in the right direction, And in fact you attack me for no reason and accuse me of all sorts of things that if true would get me banned from this forum.

If you want me to lock the thread, I’ll you have to do is ask. And based on your unprovoked response I think it is best to lock the thread.
Selig Audio, LLC

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