Music Cannot Be Cloned

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Benedict
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Post 10 Nov 2021

I should never have posted this.
Last edited by Benedict on 13 Nov 2021, edited 3 times in total.

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DaveyG
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Post 11 Nov 2021

Aw man. Does that mean I should stop dressing as a schoolboy and manically running around with an SG?

(btw, EVH's main weapon was his grin)

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Benedict
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Post 11 Nov 2021

DaveyG wrote:
11 Nov 2021
Aw man. Does that mean I should stop dressing as a schoolboy and manically running around with an SG?
Well that depends, if it is making you a living (or famous) keep it up (until you get sued). If however, it is stopping you from finding your own groove (like in maybe writing a song about a differently-abled kid in Hazard being accused of murdering his friend) then it is a hobby and not your art.

In Oz an actor called Barry Humphries made his career by dressing as a fussy older lady. You know him as Dame Edna Everage. You could try to claim his art was false seeing he was copying some other things but in reality, Bazza OA CBE created something unique and very special. It is in understanding the difference, where the difference between failure and success lies.

:-)

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avasopht
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Post 11 Nov 2021

True, but we are all different.

Some people are autodidactic. They have no need for a teacher.

Some people need a little guidance otherwise their brains just get stuck.

When it comes to creating, it's the same thing.

Even Picasso had to take inspiration from other forms of art from different cultures around the world. The style he is most famously known for derives from a style he learned from indigenous tribes' sculptures.

For some, it is enough to just create without any outside influences or imitation.

For others, it may be best to hone their skills while imitating, and then use those skills to create their own works.

Some forms of music have a lot more back and forth between the musicians and the listener. A church keyboardist, for example, responds in real-time to the mood of the congregation and the tone, pacing, and message of the preacher.

A house musician may be responding to the mood of the crowd and playing in anticipation of how they can transform or harness their energy.

Some genres may see an ongoing conversation between composition and production styles, where being aware of trends is pivotal. Those trends could be the choice of instruments, sounds or effects.

For example, in hip-hop, glitch sounds and analogue artefacts are trending a little (as is the use of reggae-inspired compositions). If you've ever tried to make beats that excite rappers (particularly ones that are standing there while you create), you'll understand how important it is to know the trends, sounds and effects.

Sometimes you'll be asked, "can I have a snare 'like that'?" And you need to know how to fabricate that sort of sound from your samples and effects.
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challism
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Post 11 Nov 2021

DaveyG wrote:
11 Nov 2021
Aw man. Does that mean I should stop dressing as a schoolboy and manically running around with an SG?

(btw, EVH's main weapon was his grin)
NO! You should definitely do more of that!
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Chizmata
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Post 11 Nov 2021

music can be cloned, but then it would be the same as something that already exists and what would be the point of that? at least when youre aiming at an audience?

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jam-s
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Post 11 Nov 2021

Chizmata wrote:
11 Nov 2021
music can be cloned, but then it would be the same as something that already exists and what would be the point of that?
Selling/Using it for unofficial karaoke backing tracks obviously. :twisted:
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Benedict
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Post 11 Nov 2021

I get the feeling no one actually bothered to read the article (let alone the thread). Oh well, to be expected.

Purple dishwasher monkey
:-(

Here have a silly cat pic instead
Image

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avasopht
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Post 11 Nov 2021

Benedict wrote:
11 Nov 2021
I get the feeling no one actually bothered to read the article (let alone the thread). Oh well, to be expected.

Purple dishwasher monkey
:-(

Here have a silly cat pic instead
Image
I read the article (and another one related to it).
---

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Creativemind
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Post 11 Nov 2021

Trying to get the exact sound of say a bass sound I heard on a record I admire, isn't (for me) tryna copy that bass sound necessarily but trying to understand how those sounds were made and what made them sound so good so that I can get an idea of how to achieve that kind of sound myself. Like when a guitarist learns The Beatles, The Stones or Floyd and understands what kind of chords go together with what strumming patterns or riffs etc. It will still sound like you in the end cause you aren't David Gilmore or Paul McCartney.

Like 80% of the old skool house records I listen to used a 909 and after using about 10 different sample packs and finally settling on a Zero-G sample pack a year ago (thinking this is the most realistic 909 sample pack I've found yet) I realised that (although pretty decent) did not sound anywhere near as good as the real thing. I then discover, after reading through a forum on house music on Gearspace /sluts, that it wasn't just the 909 itself (which on watching You Tube video's sounded better than my samples on it's own with no processing) that was making it sound better, it was the fact, also, that it was running through a real analogue mixing console which also adds flavour / texture / colour to the sound.

I've never had a fully hardware set up to know if what I think is the case, is in fact, the case. All's I know is that the "all in the box" sound in 8 years of experience isn't cutting the mustard.

I stumbled upon this guys channel on You Tube the other day and I was just like yeah, that sounds like what I'm after, not the tune, the overall sound / texture / colour of it all.



I did read the article btw.
:reason:

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guitfnky
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Post 11 Nov 2021

I just struggle with the premise. I’ve never heard of anyone trying to (or even suggesting) outright cloning other people’s music. at least not in the literal sense that seems to be outlined here. learning how to recreate a specific sound or style is different than ‘cloning’ music verbatim.

others have rightly pointed out that there’s value in the former, and you’ve rightly pointed out there’s little, to no value in the latter. but I don’t think those things are the same.

some of my favorite guitarists, for example, use tones that are nearly—if not—identical—to tried and true guitar tones that have been around for decades. their tone may well fall under the definition of “cloned”, while their playing and songwriting definitely do not. conversely, they would hardly get away with it if they wrote identical songs to their forebears, even if the guitar tones and instruments were wildly different.

I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that no one NEEDS to learn how to create a specific sound or master a certain technique in order to make unique music—the only thing that’s truly necessary is for one to regularly flex their creative muscles. I suspect maybe this is what you’re going for, and if so, I’m there.
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Benedict
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Post 11 Nov 2021

I rather get the feeling that either no one gets what I am really saying or I didn't make it clear enough. Due to the nature of social media, the title may be a bit simplistic, as "A Treatise On How People Are Making It Hard On Themselves Through Misunderstanding The Nature Of How Great Music Gets Made" may just fall flat. Even though it is more accurate.

The point is: I see people all over the place trying to "get the vocal chain to make me sound like Kendrick Lamar" or "how do I get that Guetta patch so I can drop it in my choon". This is what I mean by cloning. This is not being "influenced by" but plain trying to take what one (mis)perceives about what makes a thing work and try to photocopy it straight into one's track assuming that the result is not a meta-story built from all the elements that are there instead of some sort of simplistic box-ticking event.

This vid (below) is related more to Mr Mind's thing but relates to the broader idea under all of this. All the attention to detail this guy is putting in is making a lively and unique track, even tho it is clearly "of the formula". Not doing that work means that no matter how "perfect" the core sounds, the final track will probably fall flat as nothing really works "together":


:-)

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Benedict
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Post 12 Nov 2021

Here's another approach. I could show a pic of something like an Andromeda and play these two paired and people would be excited, feeling they needed an Andromeda. It is false (on several levels).

Note how each synth's sound has something unique about it, something strong, something weak. By understanding that and putting them together I have made something lovely. It is only by working with what is in front of me that I can do this properly.



:-)

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avasopht
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Post 12 Nov 2021

Benedict wrote:
11 Nov 2021
I rather get the feeling that either no one gets what I am really saying or I didn't make it clear enough. Due to the nature of social media, the title may be a bit simplistic, as "A Treatise On How People Are Making It Hard On Themselves Through Misunderstanding The Nature Of How Great Music Gets Made" may just fall flat. Even though it is more accurate.
I understand your point. It's not elusive it complex.

But you have to understand that there are other needs.

I have you a very specific example. I was often requested a specific sound from clients.

I explained the ongoing conversation.

I explained the need to make a beat that suits the rapper (if you've never served this market you might not have any idea what's involved).

Learning how to reproduce sounds gives you an option and understanding.

But also, sometimes it's just the desired style (not to merely copy or because they think that THAT is what will make them a hit).

Again, this is just a different genre and culture. If you're not in it you just have no idea and may be misguiding people.

I remember forum members (maybe you included) discouraging me from reproducing Timberland beats.

I gained a fuck load of knowledge and insight through the process that simply would not have happened had I not done so.

I wasn't seeking to merely imitate.

Same with knowing what keyboards Scott Storch used. It's hard to communicate because a lot of our it cultural and social. You either get it or you don't.

I wanted to understand what was different with the sounds be used and what I had in Reason I got the same old tired lectures. But they were all from people who weren't serving the market or clients that I was.

But also it must was a different sound, and it was hot.

Sure, I could probably get my desired sound from Maelstrom now :D But that Aaliyah remake I made played a huge role in why I can make entirely new sound scapes.

As I said the first time - we are all different.

You have to understand that everyone isn't you and that your recommendation might not help.

It might also be a helpful message to remind them to explore and value their own sound.

But again, when you're seeking to serve a market you have to know the trends and the language.
---

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avasopht
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Post 12 Nov 2021

Benedict wrote:
12 Nov 2021
Here's another approach. I could show a pic of something like an Andromeda and play these two paired and people would be excited, feeling they needed an Andromeda. It is false (on several levels).

Note how each synth's sound has something unique about it, something strong, something weak. By understanding that and putting them together I have made something lovely. It is only by working with what is in front of me that I can do this properly.



:-)
That's cute.

Now try make a beat that bangs.

Show me a bounce.

Give me a joint that can make headboards dance like it was 1984 (when Prince's album dropped).
---

PhillipOrdonez
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Post 12 Nov 2021

Who wants to clone another song that already exists? Obviously it is impossible as you already know, but attempting to do so can result in a new song and that's a great thing. There's much to be learned from trying to emulate your favourite artists and the results will always be you not them. And that's nothing but good in my opinion. I read the article too. 🤷‍♂️

Addendum: if your point is solely on gear and people being paralysed and not making music because they don't have x gear or X technique, that's a completely different matter and I agree with you that gear is not what maketh an artist sound but the way the artist utilises it and how their TASTE influences their decisions.

Edit two: and as a counterpoint to the gear point, here's squarepusher's take on that: http://symbioid.com/pdf/Tech/Collaborat ... ?view=FitH


RT Warning level: 1

🏁

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Creativemind
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Post 12 Nov 2021

avasopht wrote:
12 Nov 2021
Benedict wrote:
11 Nov 2021
I rather get the feeling that either no one gets what I am really saying or I didn't make it clear enough. Due to the nature of social media, the title may be a bit simplistic, as "A Treatise On How People Are Making It Hard On Themselves Through Misunderstanding The Nature Of How Great Music Gets Made" may just fall flat. Even though it is more accurate.
I understand your point. It's not elusive it complex.

But you have to understand that there are other needs.

I have you a very specific example. I was often requested a specific sound from clients.

I explained the ongoing conversation.

I explained the need to make a beat that suits the rapper (if you've never served this market you might not have any idea what's involved).

Learning how to reproduce sounds gives you an option and understanding.

But also, sometimes it's just the desired style (not to merely copy or because they think that THAT is what will make them a hit).

Again, this is just a different genre and culture. If you're not in it you just have no idea and may be misguiding people.

I remember forum members (maybe you included) discouraging me from reproducing Timberland beats.

I gained a fuck load of knowledge and insight through the process that simply would not have happened had I not done so.

I wasn't seeking to merely imitate.

Same with knowing what keyboards Scott Storch used. It's hard to communicate because a lot of our it cultural and social. You either get it or you don't.

I wanted to understand what was different with the sounds be used and what I had in Reason I got the same old tired lectures. But they were all from people who weren't serving the market or clients that I was.

But also it must was a different sound, and it was hot.

Sure, I could probably get my desired sound from Maelstrom now :D But that Aaliyah remake I made played a huge role in why I can make entirely new sound scapes.

As I said the first time - we are all different.

You have to understand that everyone isn't you and that your recommendation might not help.

It might also be a helpful message to remind them to explore and value their own sound.

But again, when you're seeking to serve a market you have to know the trends and the language.
I agree, pretty much what I said above. Copying the style and approaches of your influences won't necessarily make you sound like them, it will still sound like you because you're not them but it enables you to understand their approaches and what made the songs great and make a similar sound (unless you're tryna just recreate their track obviously.)

I also get what Benedict is saying in that, it's the era, the gear, the life events, many elements that went into making whatever track you find great, great. Just tryna copy the sounds and gear won't automatically make you make a record like theirs.

Will getting a 909, a DX7 and a Juno-106 and running it through an analogue mixer automatically enable me to create a classic house track like 1991, nope, but it will give me the same tingles down my neck when I tweak a few knobs and hit that sweet spot that'll make me go "oh yeah, that could've been a sound used back then" which would then get my creative juices flowing enough to move onto the next bit, then the next bit and so on till a track is complete.

Take Oasis (whatever you think of them) trying to extensively copy their heroes such as The Beatles, The Who, Rolling Stones, The Kinks, Slade, and The Smiths, they have elements in their music that you hear all the time of "ooh that was like that bit from Strawberry Fields Forever or Dead End Street" but with all the other elements, different words, bass line, the drummer being a different drummer, it still creates something new but with a similar flavour in places.

Another thing it does is, keeps the music alive by reintroducing a new generation of people (who may be too young to remember these other artists) like by learning Oasis songs (when first learning the guitar in 1998) and that they used this bit and that bit in a song made me go and listen to more Beatles and Stones stuff to understand what inspired them so much and opens you up to a whole new world of music you might not have listened to otherwise.
:reason:

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avasopht
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Post 12 Nov 2021

Creativemind wrote:
12 Nov 2021
I also get what Benedict is saying in that, it's the era, the gear, the life events, many elements that went into making whatever track you find great, great. Just tryna copy the sounds and gear won't automatically make you make a record like theirs.
Exactly.

And I also do agree with a lot of what Benedict is saying, just not to the full extent that one should never learn how to reproduce or seek out those signature sounds or effects.

It's just not something that makes much sense at all for some people and what they are trying to achieve.
---

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mcatalao
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Post 12 Nov 2021

I couldn't agree more with you, Benedict, but you know you're beating a dead horse, right?

Anyway, music can be played by others, mixes can be learned and every aspect of covering a song and learning the path that the music took is an important learning process. We mimic other people since the day we're born, that's how kids learn to talk and pretty much everything till getting to school.

However, a song is not production, or gear or settings or a patch or a mix, or the master and so on.

For me music is something so gruesome that it has to work in it's rawest form, and that's what the "cloners" don't get. A song by the Beatles was and is great because at some point it was one of a Kind. For the song to work, you must strip it of it's clothes, take out all the production, and the pretty gimmicks, and naked in the wild you know, it is a great song. It has to be great with a guitar and vocal, it has to be great if you play it on a piano, or if you simply sing it to yourself.

And can't be cloned.

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Creativemind
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Post 12 Nov 2021

mcatalao wrote:
12 Nov 2021
I couldn't agree more with you, Benedict, but you know you're beating a dead horse, right?
For me music is something so gruesome that it has to work in it's rawest form, and that's what the "cloners" don't get. A song by the Beatles was and is great because at some point it was one of a Kind. For the song to work, you must strip it of it's clothes, take out all the production, and the pretty gimmicks, and naked in the wild you know, it is a great song. It has to be great with a guitar and vocal, it has to be great if you play it on a piano, or if you simply sing it to yourself.
That is true. Spot on. Although saying that, sometimes I've written a song on guitar and it sounded 5 out of 10 but after adding a bass line, drums and perhaps strings, really did sound great but more often than not, yes, it has to be "wow" when just played on a guitar / piano and sang.
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Benedict
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Post 12 Nov 2021

mcatalao wrote:
12 Nov 2021
I couldn't agree more with you, Benedict, but you know you're beating a dead horse, right?
Thanks for at least understanding.

Yes, it is like preaching to the choir, the choir of satan, whilst they sing about satan, with pointy pitchforks stuck in the belly, and ed sheepman & adhele posters on their walls to prove how uniquely relevant they are, as they demand that you be exactly like them.

The frustrating thing in this sort of situation is that some set it upon themselves to be condescending. To belittle by changing the point to one of their own makings so there is no counterargument that is even possible. This leaves one in the position of appearing to concede to their more elevatednessness or make an argument that now appears to be at a tangent to the new tangent they insist was the original argument.

I give up.

Do what you want to do and be happy.

:-I

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avasopht
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Post 12 Nov 2021

Benedict wrote:
12 Nov 2021
Yes, it is like preaching to the choir, the choir of satan, whilst they sing about satan, with pointy pitchforks stuck in the belly, and ed sheepman & adhele posters on their walls to prove how uniquely relevant they are, as they demand that you be exactly like them.
When has ANYONE demanded that YOU be like anything at all?

Do you not recognise that there is no need for everyone to follow the all or nothing approach you propose while still taking something valuable from it?

Are you trying to inform others or validate/defend your own decisions?

I had always presumed the more enlightened former, but now you seem to suggest the latter.
---

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nickb523
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Post 12 Nov 2021

1280px-Parque_Eagle_River,_Anchorage,_Alaska,_Estados_Unidos,_2017-09-01,_DD_02.jpg

Give 20 people the exact same tools/materials and ask them to paint the above picture.

In the end you will have 20 completely different paintings. All of which are valid pieces of artwork.

Try as you might to clone/copy. Your fingerprint will still be present.

I think that is Benedict's point. ;)
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Benedict
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Post 12 Nov 2021

Thank you Nick

Yes, it is those differences that I encourage. Trying to paint that to be "perfect" to the photo (or someone else's painting) is doing more damage than good. We can only manage our painting when we work with what we have. The more completely we can do that, the better we can do.

:-)

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guitfnky
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Post 12 Nov 2021

disagreement is not condescension. disagreement is not belittling. most have been very patient and trying to understand what you’re getting at. I don’t think anyone was really even trying to argue—just understand.
I write bad music for good people

latest release—The Lake Door:
bit.ly/TheLakeDoor-Soundcloud
https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/track/the-lake-door

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