The drugs don't work..

[motuscott]

Well sure, it's the "stop dead at the 6 month" part where it gets tricky

[Gardinski]

I think it's worth noting that Zappa never touched 'em, and a case could definitely be made for Zappa being the most consistently creative motherfucker of the past 50 years.

(The irony is that if you play any of his work to the uninitiated, they tend to leap to the conclusion that the guy was out of his gourd on superhuman quantities of psychedelics, but nothing could be further from the truth.)

[guitfnky]

I think it's worth noting that Zappa never touched 'em, and a case could definitely be made for Zappa being the most consistently creative motherfucker of the past 50 years.

(The irony is that if you play any of his work to the uninitiated, they tend to leap to the conclusion that the guy was out of his gourd on superhuman quantities of psychedelics, but nothing could be further from the truth.)

this is one of the reasons I absolutely love Zappa. he puts truth to the lie that doing drugs makes us more creative. drugs change our state of mind, which can feel very liberating and inspiring, but doesn’t change how creative we actually are.

[dvdrtldg]

Yeah but Zappa was fucking awful. Could have used the drugs imo

[dvdrtldg]

Anyway drugs & making music: great for getting shit started, terrible for getting shit finished. Drugs (at least of the weed & acid variety) can make it really difficult to get to any particular destination

I did some sessions with my brother and a friend in the 90s, just jamming for hours in a rehearsal studio with guitar/sampler/machines while monumentally fucked up. We'd tape everything, and get very excited listening back because some of it was really good. Then we'd go back and try to do something focused & constructive based on the good bits, and fail hopelessly (did I mention we were monumentally fucked up)

Jump forward to 2012, clean & sober me pulls out the tapes and gets to work on them (in Reason!) This time I was able to stay on task without disappearing down any psychic rabbit holes. The result was a very druggy release that did justice to the original recording experience, but it never would have seen the light of day without a straight & disciplined production job

[selig]

I hardly think it's one size fits all with regards to ANYTHING creative. Some need nature to feel creative, some need the big city energy. Some need a collaborator, some do better working alone. Some only work at night, others can't do anything till the sun is fully up.
So I likewise don't think we can put truth or a lie to this subject in general, it's whatever floats your boat. I've seen some folks in the studio who's attention is all over the place until they smoke a little, others who can't finish a song without a beer or two (aka: "chorus in a can"), and some who can't function at all without coffee (me!), and plenty who need nothing at all other than a good meal and to be well hydrated! Obviously there is a law of diminishing returns in affect for ANY creative "aid", including food.

In my experience it's more about learning what works for YOU, and that can get pretty complex, from needing to be sober to finish to needing to be sober to start and everything in between. I've worked with a LOT of different artists through the years, and for each there was a different "formula", at least among the successful ones. Just like everything else in life, I guess!
[edit: I CAN say I've never seen hard drugs/pills do anything positive, creatively speaking. Typically they bring any creative sessions to a halt, and it CAN be pretty ugly when that happens - alternatively, at best it turns the session into a very expensive party, considering studio time costs…]

[guitfnky]

that’s all difference in approach, though, not difference in creative ability. inability to focus is wholly separate from actual creativity. approach affects quantity, not quality. drugs affect approach.

[selig]

that’s all difference in approach, though, not difference in creative ability. inability to focus is wholly separate from actual creativity. approach affects quantity, not quality. drugs affect approach.

The OP states:
"I was having a discussion with a friend whether drugs help or hinder in music creating."

I was answering that "question", not the question of whether a drub MAKES you creative or not (or gives you creative abilities you did not already posses). And my answer, as always, was basically "it depends"!

I would suggest we are each always exactly as creative as we are, no more, no less. But, we seem to never be able to consistently access that creativity, at whatever level it may exist in each of us, implying there are variables involved.

For example, some days I'm simply able to be more creative than others - is that somehow because of a difference of approach, or does my actual ability vary from day to day? Or something else entirely?

TL/DR: If your livelihood relies on you accessing your creativity, then you would be well served to find the approaches that gives you the best results - which approaches to use depends very much on the individual IMO. That's all I was trying to say.

[Dante]

Recipe for making music with drugs (dosage varies per individual and experience/resistance):

1) Benzodiazepine. Great for focusing on detail. Can get a lot done (tracking/composing). Careful, GAS resistance can be lowered so leave your credit card away and don't visit any VST sites.
2) Cannabis. Better for listening or live jamming guitars in camping in a tent along a quiet freeway. Best have a field recorder coz you'll never remember the music otherwise. Mixing - reggae only (w/- a tape delay sim)
3) Alcohol. Good for uninhibited vocals, rock guitar riff recording (tracking only e.g. w/ good amp sims and mic shield)
4) Speed. Good for long sessions incl. techno / electro > 160BPM (composing/tracking/sequencing - rebirth, TR808's etc.). May also good for Modular fiddling as a standby activity.
5) Opiates. Good for ambient, hypnotic and developing evolving pads w/- uHe synths or RE equivs <100BPM
6) Dry. Best for mixdown - include sleep prior. Use a dedicated mixdown DAW such as Mixbus.
7) Coke - unknown - others please fill in.
8) Hallucinogens - unknown - others please fill in.

Conclusion : Compartmentalise and classify the combinations of drug according to individual/activity combinations. There simply is no one size fits all. Zappa told us that decades ago.

[guitfnky]

that’s all difference in approach, though, not difference in creative ability. inability to focus is wholly separate from actual creativity. approach affects quantity, not quality. drugs affect approach.

The OP states:
"I was having a discussion with a friend whether drugs help or hinder in music creating."

I was answering that "question", not the question of whether a drub MAKES you creative or not (or gives you creative abilities you did not already posses). And my answer, as always, was basically "it depends"!

I would suggest we are each always exactly as creative as we are, no more, no less. But, we seem to never be able to consistently access that creativity, at whatever level it may exist in each of us, implying there are variables involved.

For example, some days I'm simply able to be more creative than others - is that somehow because of a difference of approach, or does my actual ability vary from day to day? Or something else entirely?

TL/DR: If your livelihood relies on you accessing your creativity, then you would be well served to find the approaches that gives you the best results - which approaches to use depends very much on the individual IMO. That's all I was trying to say.

agree with that completely. I was reacting to the Zappa comment specifically, and then your comment, which I took as a response to my own, at least in part (based on our truth/lie language)—which of course I may have misinterpreted.

anyhoo, approach/inspiration is a critical part of finishing stuff. I just think there’s a fairly clear line between creativity and output, that’s all.

and I don’t have any problem with drugs (nor do I have a drug problem ) as a way to access that inspiration. I’ve used alcohol and marijuana myself, but it doesn’t do much for me. I suspect it’s because I’d been flexing my creative muscles decades before trying them, and I know how to get myself inspired when I need to. as you suggest, it’s different for everyone.

[motuscott]

Speaking of the Zap
Imma not gonna say you have to film pornography to change the face of music as we know it
But it couldn't hurt,
right?

[motuscott]

It's called history, batch

[motuscott]

Line me up some victims mama
I got dem ol' crucifixion blues

[plaamook]

Yeah but Zappa was fucking awful. Could have used the drugs imo

I love him but yeah, he was!

[plaamook]

In my 'youth' way before I got into making music I went though a big hallucenogen phase. Trips and music listening is indescribable experience as you all know. Anyway, that period totally shaped how I think about music and how I make music to this day. I don't really need the drugs any more. I get reality warp and that's really all it was ever about for me anyway.
Sadly there was no MDMA around bck then but I checked in on that stuff 2-3 times just to see what the fuss was all about. K too. Both great on music. But again, sorta been there, etc.
To me it's way more interesting how, perhaps with my past training-perhaps not, music can warp reality just fine on it's own. Consuming or producing, whatever.

[Auryn]

In my 'youth' way before I got into making music I went though a big hallucenogen phase. Trips and music listening is indescribable experience as you all know. Anyway, that period totally shaped how I think about music and how I make music to this day. I don't really need the drugs any more. I get reality warp and that's really all it was ever about for me anyway.
Sadly there was no MDMA around bck then but I checked in on that stuff 2-3 times just to see what the fuss was all about. K too. Both great on music. But again, sorta been there, etc.
To me it's way more interesting how, perhaps with my past training-perhaps not, music can warp reality just fine on it's own. Consuming or producing, whatever.

This is very recognizable to me. One thing that's really awesome about shrooms is you can sort of "remember" the experience, even years later, and still take inspiration from it.

[plaamook]

In my 'youth' way before I got into making music I went though a big hallucenogen phase. Trips and music listening is indescribable experience as you all know. Anyway, that period totally shaped how I think about music and how I make music to this day. I don't really need the drugs any more. I get reality warp and that's really all it was ever about for me anyway.
Sadly there was no MDMA around bck then but I checked in on that stuff 2-3 times just to see what the fuss was all about. K too. Both great on music. But again, sorta been there, etc.
To me it's way more interesting how, perhaps with my past training-perhaps not, music can warp reality just fine on it's own. Consuming or producing, whatever.

This is very recognizable to me. One thing that's really awesome about shrooms is you can sort of "remember" the experience, even years later, and still take inspiration from it.

Well you work in Psyche so I'm sure you're aware of all the research going into the use of psychadelics, not just for accute symptoms but for longer lasting effects in different departments from depression to psychosis etc.
My point is I don't think it's just 'remembering'. I think it changes you on some level. I think it opens up people's idea of 'reality' in ways that can be quite significant.

[dannyF]

This is very recognizable to me. One thing that's really awesome about shrooms is you can sort of "remember" the experience, even years later, and still take inspiration from it.

Well you work in Psyche so I'm sure you're aware of all the research going into the use of psychadelics, not just for accute symptoms but for longer lasting effects in different departments from depression to psychosis etc.

That's quite an unbalanced viewpoint. There can also be long term positive effects.

There are companies right now looking into using psychedlics as a treatment for depression.

Check out Mind Medicine Inc.

[orthodox]

There are companies right now looking into using psychedlics as a treatment for depression.

They might be just as well looking into making profits on the newly legalized market. The line between medical and recreational use is blurred.

[plaamook]

Well you work in Psyche so I'm sure you're aware of all the research going into the use of psychadelics, not just for accute symptoms but for longer lasting effects in different departments from depression to psychosis etc.

That's quite an unbalanced viewpoint. There can also be long term positive effects.

There are companies right now looking into using psychedlics as a treatment for depression.

Check out Mind Medicine Inc.

You've misread my post. We're saying the same thing.

[MrFigg]

There are companies right now looking into using psychedlics as a treatment for depression.

They might be just as well looking into making profits on the newly legalized market. The line between medical and recreational use is blurred.

Been following it a while. They’ve been testing microdosing with psilocybin and LSD on severe depression in terminal cancer patients. The thought is that the brain gets a reboot. The most recent research however showed that, when comparing with the control group who had received a placebo, there was no significant difference in perceived mood or feelings about their situation.

[plaamook]

There are companies right now looking into using psychedlics as a treatment for depression.

They might be just as well looking into making profits on the newly legalized market. The line between medical and recreational use is blurred.

Sure but just because something is profiable doen't mean it doesn't work, right? Everything is marketed after all.

Anyway, research or no, people have been witnessing the effects for many moons and speculating about this. western science is just catching up really. Trying to define it in it's own terms and capitalise on it's discoveries.
It's interesting that so many creatures like to get drunk, stoned, what have you. Elephants, dogs, horses, moneys, humans... And if it's not drugs it's other recreational activities that alter your mind state from films to music, to extreme activities that disorient our minds. If these sorts of things are sought after and make us all feel better to whatever degree then why is that? I mean imagine living in a world where things that make you feel good are actually good for you?!

[plaamook]

They might be just as well looking into making profits on the newly legalized market. The line between medical and recreational use is blurred.

Been following it a while. They’ve been testing microdosing with psilocybin and LSD on severe depression in terminal cancer patients. The thought is that the brain gets a reboot. The most recent research however showed that, when comparing with the control group who had received a placebo, there was no significant difference in perceived mood or feelings about their situation.

That's almost more interesting. I love placebos. The idea of it anyway.
Anyway as you say, most recent research. So we'll see how it all pans out.
But one thing is for sure, It's doing something to people. Question isn't if, it's what I think.

[Gardinski]

It's interesting that so many creatures like to get drunk, stoned, what have you. Elephants, dogs, horses, monkeys... "

Right. What we need to do is round-up all these psychedelically-inclined elephants, dogs, horses & monkeys, give 'em guitars and bongos or whatever, and start a shit-hot band. I'm totally up for being their manager!

[Gardinski]

Ah, damn it... Further research indicates that this has already been done.