What is going on in the USA and stuff

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selig
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Post 12 Jun 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
11 Jun 2020
Sure, it's simple and clear but also completely pointless without context.

Women are 2.5x more likely to get lipstick allergies than men.
NBA referees are racist, because they penalize black players 2.5x times more often.

I understand that the question of being murdered by police is no laughing matter, but I just tried to illustrate my point simply.
I'd be quite happy if from the statistics you'd take away that despite being 13% of the population, Afro-Americans make up more than half of all homicides.
I don’t understand the context of your last quote in a conversation on police violence - what’s the relationship here?

African Americans are STILL 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police as white Americans. How do you explain away this statistic, and what is your motivation to say such things, unless you’re trying to suggest black folks are somehow more “criminally inclined” than white?? If not that, what?
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Auryn
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Post 12 Jun 2020

joeyluck wrote:
11 Jun 2020
The human race is but a tiny blip in the history of Earth. And the United States is a speck of that. I don't care about any monuments to awful people and the hoarding of monuments.

Columbus was terrible and we're talking about history dating back to the late 1400s. The statue in Richmond is from 1927 and the one in Boston was from 1979. The history is not remotely shared. Just some crappy statues honoring the wrong people.

The landscape is always changing. We can protect and curate art, and even understand that those things change too. We have separation of church and state here, so any statues of religious figures can exist in places of worship.

Even Robert E. Lee objected to having monuments and his descendents are happy to see them removed.

So no I'm am not concerned in the slightest about a "slippery slope" that you speak of involving monuments to terrible people. Protect the land, protect the national parks, preserve what we can of the earth. Don't get so caught up in statues and worshiping people, especially the bad ones.
After sleeping on it and reading this again I think that most of our disagreement lies in a difference in how we see statues. I tend to think of them as pieces of art, or at least artifacts/records of history. You see them more as objects of worship / political propaganda.

They are obviously both so I don't think there's a right answer here.

The fact that the statues are not old (I'm from 1979, so I'm slightly biased in making that assessment ;) ) certainly makes me question why they were put up. I was expecting them to be old, like 1600-1700 or something. If it's obvious they were put up just to spite some native Americans, and they don't have exceptional artistic merit, than that would be a strong case for removing them.

I want to stress that even though I may appear to be "defending Columbus" I actually care quite deeply about the plight of indigenous peoples and first nations around the world. I'm certainly no 'the west = the best' type thinker, and I believe that there is a lot we can and should learn from these other cultures and their traditions (respect for nature would be one obvious example) I think we should devote our time and efforts to 'building bridges', so we can understand each other better. I also think this is already happening, but there is a long way to go. One other reason I dislike this "statue toppling" is that it's just what we in Holland would call "symboolpolitiek" (e.g.) "symbol politics", e.g. you make a symbolic action to appease public outcry, but in reality nothing changes. All the hard work of bridge building is still ahead.

I also found your remark about Robert E. Lee quite amusing... if he disliked statues than I would argue the best solution would be to have a plaque below the statue that reads: "Robert E. Lee - did such and such a bad thing (a short summary of his claim to infamy), he also hated statues"
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Auryn
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Post 12 Jun 2020

selig wrote:
12 Jun 2020
EdwardKiy wrote:
11 Jun 2020
Sure, it's simple and clear but also completely pointless without context.

Women are 2.5x more likely to get lipstick allergies than men.
NBA referees are racist, because they penalize black players 2.5x times more often.

I understand that the question of being murdered by police is no laughing matter, but I just tried to illustrate my point simply.
I'd be quite happy if from the statistics you'd take away that despite being 13% of the population, Afro-Americans make up more than half of all homicides.
I don’t understand the context of your last quote in a conversation on police violence - what’s the relationship here?

African Americans are STILL 2.5 times more likely to be killed by the police as white Americans. How do you explain away this statistic, and what is your motivation to say such things, unless you’re trying to suggest black folks are somehow more “criminally inclined” than white?? If not that, what?
I can't speak directly for Edward but I think he acknowledged before that black people in the USA are unfortunately more likely to be poor due to the history of racism/slavery, and poor people (of whatever race) are more likely to be "criminally inclined" due to their social circumstances.
If I read what he's saying here, it doesn't automatically follow from that '2.5 times' figure that the police are racist, because the police are just doing the job of apprehending the 'criminally inclined'. If white people were a relatively poor minority in the US, then a correctly functioning police force would probably apprehend white people 2.5x more often. Skin colour/ethnicity is trivial in this, the real problem is inequality/poverty. What is being perceived as racism is actually a law enforcement bias against poor/lower class people of all races. It's just that in the USA, a lot of poor people are black.
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guitfnky
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Post 12 Jun 2020

again, we’re looking at the result and calling it the cause. yes, minorities are more likely to be poor. but they’re not more likely to be poor because of their race (again, no one can make that claim unless they’re racist). why are they more likely to be poor?

because we have a culture of implicit racism, and implicitly racist systems in this country.

does racism exist in this country? 100%. is that the underlying reason for all of this (the divergent socioeconomic status of minorities, from which then flows the divergent likelihood of certain behaviors, the divergent healthcare outcomes for minorities, and so on, and so on...)? 100%.

of course eliminating racism in our hearts and our systems will never solve all problems. there will always be evil in the world, but that’s true, no matter the color of your skin. but if you follow the problems back, asking yourself every step along the way, “what causes this?” when you get to the end of the line, you see racism staring you in the face. that’s the foundation on which all of those other problems are built. and it’s a strong one.

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joeyluck
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Post 12 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
12 Jun 2020
joeyluck wrote:
11 Jun 2020
The human race is but a tiny blip in the history of Earth. And the United States is a speck of that. I don't care about any monuments to awful people and the hoarding of monuments.

Columbus was terrible and we're talking about history dating back to the late 1400s. The statue in Richmond is from 1927 and the one in Boston was from 1979. The history is not remotely shared. Just some crappy statues honoring the wrong people.

The landscape is always changing. We can protect and curate art, and even understand that those things change too. We have separation of church and state here, so any statues of religious figures can exist in places of worship.

Even Robert E. Lee objected to having monuments and his descendents are happy to see them removed.

So no I'm am not concerned in the slightest about a "slippery slope" that you speak of involving monuments to terrible people. Protect the land, protect the national parks, preserve what we can of the earth. Don't get so caught up in statues and worshiping people, especially the bad ones.
After sleeping on it and reading this again I think that most of our disagreement lies in a difference in how we see statues. I tend to think of them as pieces of art, or at least artifacts/records of history. You see them more as objects of worship / political propaganda.

They are obviously both so I don't think there's a right answer here.

The fact that the statues are not old (I'm from 1979, so I'm slightly biased in making that assessment ;) ) certainly makes me question why they were put up. I was expecting them to be old, like 1600-1700 or something. If it's obvious they were put up just to spite some native Americans, and they don't have exceptional artistic merit, than that would be a strong case for removing them.

I want to stress that even though I may appear to be "defending Columbus" I actually care quite deeply about the plight of indigenous peoples and first nations around the world. I'm certainly no 'the west = the best' type thinker, and I believe that there is a lot we can and should learn from these other cultures and their traditions (respect for nature would be one obvious example) I think we should devote our time and efforts to 'building bridges', so we can understand each other better. I also think this is already happening, but there is a long way to go. One other reason I dislike this "statue toppling" is that it's just what we in Holland would call "symboolpolitiek" (e.g.) "symbol politics", e.g. you make a symbolic action to appease public outcry, but in reality nothing changes. All the hard work of bridge building is still ahead.

I also found your remark about Robert E. Lee quite amusing... if he disliked statues than I would argue the best solution would be to have a plaque below the statue that reads: "Robert E. Lee - did such and such a bad thing (a short summary of his claim to infamy), he also hated statues"
Yeah the confederate monuments were mass-produced and not unique. I'm not sure about the Columbus ones.

People here have always pushed to have the true history of the monuments posted near the statues, but it has always been met with objection from the far-right. So if any of it was ever about history, history was not allowed.

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Auryn
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Post 12 Jun 2020

guitfnky wrote:
12 Jun 2020
again, we’re looking at the result and calling it the cause. yes, minorities are more likely to be poor. but they’re not more likely to be poor because of their race (again, no one can make that claim unless they’re racist). why are they more likely to be poor?

because we have a culture of implicit racism, and implicitly racist systems in this country.

does racism exist in this country? 100%. is that the underlying reason for all of this (the divergent socioeconomic status of minorities, from which then flows the divergent likelihood of certain behaviors, the divergent healthcare outcomes for minorities, and so on, and so on...)? 100%.

of course eliminating racism in our hearts and our systems will never solve all problems. there will always be evil in the world, but that’s true, no matter the color of your skin. but if you follow the problems back, asking yourself every step along the way, “what causes this?” when you get to the end of the line, you see racism staring you in the face. that’s the foundation on which all of those other problems are built. and it’s a strong one.
I don't think we disagreeing all that much? Obviously black people in the USA are poor mostly because of the history of racism/slavery and post-slavery racist policies. Although the explicit racism (as in racism written into law) is gone, there is still implicit racism in for example the school funding system (considering how important education is, this is no small matter)

What I am mostly arguing against is "scapegoating" the police as the bad guys on the basis of this incident with George Floyd. "All cops are bastards" and such. Considering what the job description of a police officer is, and the type of incident they are mostly called for, I think it's almost inevitable that they will disproportionally arrest poor people, a large percentage of whom are going to be black. That doesn't mean that it isn't fucked up that a lot of black people are poor and end up in jail. It means that it's not the police that can do much about that, they need to arrest the people that are committing crimes, not check whether ethnic makeup of the jail population is proportionally represented. That is a political problem.

This is obviously seperate from the brutality aspect, we were discussing the meaning of statistics concerning arrest rates. The brutality aspect, the amount of people hurt or killed by police seems to me to be to be related to stuff like the prevalence of violence in american society, the prevalence of gun ownership, and last but not least, a cultural aspect where the police is trained to be a kind of paramilitary force. It's pretty obvious to me as a citizen of Holland that the american police often have a much more authoritarian approach. Still, if I put myself in the position of an American police officer I would be PARANOID AS FUCK about everyone potentially carrying a gun, and I would probably demand unreserved compliance as well, purely as a measure for my own safety.
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Post 12 Jun 2020

Must be quite a wearying experience having to deal with aggression (verbal or physical) on a daily basis just because of the colour of your skin.

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littlejam
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Post 12 Jun 2020

hello,

one of my friends who is black, worked on 5th avenue in Manhattan, NY in the fancy store district
as a security guard in a small, boutique clothing store
he always wore a suit
when he would go out to lunch, he would walk down the street
he told me that many times, white women would put their purse on their other shoulder when he approached,
or the women would go out of their way to create distance between the guy

is this called non verbal racism / fear

a black guy even dressed in a suit still scares the shit out of some people

my guyanese girlfriend had a late night job
she came home at like 2 am
walked down the streets of brooklyn, ny and never had a problem

a person's preconceptions of others really dictates behavior

cheers,

j
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Post 12 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
12 Jun 2020
guitfnky wrote:
12 Jun 2020
again, we’re looking at the result and calling it the cause. yes, minorities are more likely to be poor. but they’re not more likely to be poor because of their race (again, no one can make that claim unless they’re racist). why are they more likely to be poor?

because we have a culture of implicit racism, and implicitly racist systems in this country.

does racism exist in this country? 100%. is that the underlying reason for all of this (the divergent socioeconomic status of minorities, from which then flows the divergent likelihood of certain behaviors, the divergent healthcare outcomes for minorities, and so on, and so on...)? 100%.

of course eliminating racism in our hearts and our systems will never solve all problems. there will always be evil in the world, but that’s true, no matter the color of your skin. but if you follow the problems back, asking yourself every step along the way, “what causes this?” when you get to the end of the line, you see racism staring you in the face. that’s the foundation on which all of those other problems are built. and it’s a strong one.
I don't think we disagreeing all that much? Obviously black people in the USA are poor mostly because of the history of racism/slavery and post-slavery racist policies. Although the explicit racism (as in racism written into law) is gone, there is still implicit racism in for example the school funding system (considering how important education is, this is no small matter)

What I am mostly arguing against is "scapegoating" the police as the bad guys on the basis of this incident with George Floyd. "All cops are bastards" and such. Considering what the job description of a police officer is, and the type of incident they are mostly called for, I think it's almost inevitable that they will disproportionally arrest poor people, a large percentage of whom are going to be black. That doesn't mean that it isn't fucked up that a lot of black people are poor and end up in jail. It means that it's not the police that can do much about that, they need to arrest the people that are committing crimes, not check whether ethnic makeup of the jail population is proportionally represented. That is a political problem.

This is obviously seperate from the brutality aspect, we were discussing the meaning of statistics concerning arrest rates. The brutality aspect, the amount of people hurt or killed by police seems to me to be to be related to stuff like the prevalence of violence in american society, the prevalence of gun ownership, and last but not least, a cultural aspect where the police is trained to be a kind of paramilitary force. It's pretty obvious to me as a citizen of Holland that the american police often have a much more authoritarian approach. Still, if I put myself in the position of an American police officer I would be PARANOID AS FUCK about everyone potentially carrying a gun, and I would probably demand unreserved compliance as well, purely as a measure for my own safety.
Nobody is scapegoating the police here though....not that i've read anyway. Some people have pointed out the realities of how a police establishment works. Mistrust breeds mistrust . Its ok arresting ,fining or convicting people who are commiting crimes ..who can argue with that? But arresting, fining and convicting poor people or black people who havn't commited crimes because its acceptable or the law simply allows for the police's ' inturpretation' of events is another .....and sadly the only defence againts this is a camera phone!! If you cant afford one ..well tough.
As i tried to point out ..police have been abusing this 'loophole' since forever. What judge is going to take the word of a poor , unemployed black man over a couple of cops? Cops dont need 'proof ' in these scenarios and its OBVIOUS they exploit this in the case of poor people. Poor people arn't going to afford solicitors to defend them either are they ? and in the end would it even matter?.
Take the Amy cooper incident , it was filmed on camera phone . What would have hapened here if it wasn't? What do you think is the most likely outcome.? this is what poor and poor black americans have to deal with on a daily basis... as i say mistrust breeds mistrust. It dosn't matter if you've done something or not ...we can do you for it anyway. 'Lets go down a few streets and hassle a few more poor people or black people ..'we can notch up a couple of more fines before we wrap up' ...like taking candy from a kid.
As i say the only defence against this is a camera phone and after the george floyd incident we are starting to see where this resenntment and anger towards the police comes from . Nobody here is sacpegoating the police though ..not that i've read.
Its obvious that police need more internal diciplinary proceedures (which simply isn't going to happen) and there has to be a more transparent system in lower tier law where police need to provide proof of guilt .. thats what people want .

When I mention discipline i'm speaking from personal experience. I got a policeman suspened for 6 months without pay for ill discipline ( that was the best i could get and it cost me 250 Euros to get a solicitor to type a letter that would have been ignored otherwise ). This was followed by weekly... sometimes daily harrasement from his 'mates' for months afterwards. Over the years i've evolved from looking at a police uniform to looking at the person who's wearing the uniform ......in that regards i imagine i have the same attitude to police as alot of balck people but as i've already said because i'm not balck i dont feel qualified to give my opinion on racisism in that regards.

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selig
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Post 12 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
12 Jun 2020
I can't speak directly for Edward but I think he acknowledged before that black people in the USA are unfortunately more likely to be poor due to the history of racism/slavery, and poor people (of whatever race) are more likely to be "criminally inclined" due to their social circumstances.
If I read what he's saying here, it doesn't automatically follow from that '2.5 times' figure that the police are racist, because the police are just doing the job of apprehending the 'criminally inclined'. If white people were a relatively poor minority in the US, then a correctly functioning police force would probably apprehend white people 2.5x more often. Skin colour/ethnicity is trivial in this, the real problem is inequality/poverty. What is being perceived as racism is actually a law enforcement bias against poor/lower class people of all races. It's just that in the USA, a lot of poor people are black.
OK so if poverty = criminally inclined, then the rich countries would have fewer criminals, correct? But despite the US being one of the richest countries (12th richest according to what I was able to find), it has a much higher incarceration rate than ANY other country by a long shot.

So, are we still certain there's a link, and if so do we still have a problem because we are putting far more folks in prison per capita here in the US than would account for "social circumstances"?

And besides that, IMO the real issue isn't if you are criminally inclined or not, or if the police are arresting you at a higher rate or not - it's WHY ARE YOU BEING KILLED FOR CRIMES LIKE PASSING A FAKE $20 BILL?!?
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guitfnky
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Post 12 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
12 Jun 2020
guitfnky wrote:
12 Jun 2020
again, we’re looking at the result and calling it the cause. yes, minorities are more likely to be poor. but they’re not more likely to be poor because of their race (again, no one can make that claim unless they’re racist). why are they more likely to be poor?

because we have a culture of implicit racism, and implicitly racist systems in this country.

does racism exist in this country? 100%. is that the underlying reason for all of this (the divergent socioeconomic status of minorities, from which then flows the divergent likelihood of certain behaviors, the divergent healthcare outcomes for minorities, and so on, and so on...)? 100%.

of course eliminating racism in our hearts and our systems will never solve all problems. there will always be evil in the world, but that’s true, no matter the color of your skin. but if you follow the problems back, asking yourself every step along the way, “what causes this?” when you get to the end of the line, you see racism staring you in the face. that’s the foundation on which all of those other problems are built. and it’s a strong one.
I don't think we disagreeing all that much? Obviously black people in the USA are poor mostly because of the history of racism/slavery and post-slavery racist policies. Although the explicit racism (as in racism written into law) is gone, there is still implicit racism in for example the school funding system (considering how important education is, this is no small matter)

What I am mostly arguing against is "scapegoating" the police as the bad guys on the basis of this incident with George Floyd. "All cops are bastards" and such. Considering what the job description of a police officer is, and the type of incident they are mostly called for, I think it's almost inevitable that they will disproportionally arrest poor people, a large percentage of whom are going to be black. That doesn't mean that it isn't fucked up that a lot of black people are poor and end up in jail. It means that it's not the police that can do much about that, they need to arrest the people that are committing crimes, not check whether ethnic makeup of the jail population is proportionally represented. That is a political problem.

This is obviously seperate from the brutality aspect, we were discussing the meaning of statistics concerning arrest rates. The brutality aspect, the amount of people hurt or killed by police seems to me to be to be related to stuff like the prevalence of violence in american society, the prevalence of gun ownership, and last but not least, a cultural aspect where the police is trained to be a kind of paramilitary force. It's pretty obvious to me as a citizen of Holland that the american police often have a much more authoritarian approach. Still, if I put myself in the position of an American police officer I would be PARANOID AS FUCK about everyone potentially carrying a gun, and I would probably demand unreserved compliance as well, purely as a measure for my own safety.
this is the kind of plausible deniability argument that makes meaningful reform so difficult. systemic racism isn’t inherent to the individual act. systemic racism is inherent to the PATTERN of acts.

you can’t prove George Floyd was murdered because of racism. but if you look at the pattern of law enforcement behavior toward people of color, and you see the freedom from consequence those officers are afforded, the racism is plain as day.

the fact that explicit racism isn’t legal anymore works to the benefit of implicit racism. an officer who yells a racial slur as they’re mistreating someone removes all doubt, but if they just keep their mouths shut, how can anyone know for sure?

and honestly, I find the notion that any white person would ever be treated this way over a $20 bill, or some loose cigarettes, absolutely preposterous. it’s magical thinking.

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Auryn
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Post 12 Jun 2020

selig wrote:
12 Jun 2020
OK so if poverty = criminally inclined, then the rich countries would have fewer criminals, correct? But despite the US being one of the richest countries (12th richest according to what I was able to find), it has a much higher incarceration rate than ANY other country by a long shot.
I guess I'm not expressing myself as clearly as I should be. When I'm saying 'poverty' it's more or less shorthand for 'relative povery' i.e. how poor are you compared to other people in your country/community? I don't think most people (at least in the western world) have an acute sense of their absolute wealth or poverty compared to the rest of the world's population, because their perception of community struggles to stretch that far.

I mean, if you'd turn that argument around you'd end up saying that black people in the US (12th out of 195) are some of the most privileged people on earth, so why are they even complaining about poverty? It's the perception of poverty/underprivilege/inequality that counts (psychologically speaking) and that is heavily determined by how wealthy/privileged they perceive other people in their community/society/environment to be.
selig wrote:
12 Jun 2020
So, are we still certain there's a link, and if so do we still have a problem because we are putting far more folks in prison per capita here in the US than would account for "social circumstances"?
I would deem the absolutely huge prison population of the USA a different, though not entirely separate issue. Because the US is so extreme compared to even highly similar (in social en economic terms) countries like Canada or the UK many explanations quickly fall flat. I'll just offer some possible factors:

1 ) relatively (compared to other countries) large prevalence of violent crime and homicide (more serious crime > more people in prison)
https://www.nationmaster.com/country-in ... urder-rate (us is #14 in murder rate out of 195)

2 ) relatively high (i.e. prison time) sentences for minor offences (i.e. drug related offences and such)
(here in Holland selling some MDMA at a festival would most likely get you a fine and a ban from that festival, I imagine the US will be much stricter, and much stricter still if you are black, which is one of the clear vestiges of institutional racism)

3 ) relatively high wealth inequality (this is probably a huge factor towards 1), US is #11 out of 195. Inequality breeds resentment.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... h_equality (you have to sort by GINI 2018)
(interesting note: that Edward guy you were talking to earlier comes from Ukraine I think, which is the #1 most unequal country in the world in terms of wealth at the moment, which no doubt informs his opinions on these matters)

4 ) cultural issues (this one is more tendentious but might also contribute to 1) i.e. a slightly-too-cavalier attitude towards violence, acceptability of gun ownership, romanticization of criminal/outlaw lifestyles in media, highly militarized approach to policing, those kinds of things
selig wrote:
12 Jun 2020
And besides that, IMO the real issue isn't if you are criminally inclined or not, or if the police are arresting you at a higher rate or not - it's WHY ARE YOU BEING KILLED FOR CRIMES LIKE PASSING A FAKE $20 BILL?!?
first I'd like to say : WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU SCREAMING AT ME, I'M NOT THE MOTHERFUCKER THAT CHOKED THE GUY!

now that I have that out of my system ;)

Maybe it's going to sound waaay to cold when I say this, but I would venture that that is what tragically happens sometimes when a bad/resentful attitude towards the police meets a highly militarized/authoritarian style of policing.

Edit: it happens in my own country too, just far less often. Unfortunately there is no english-language page for this, but maybe you can get a semi-sensible translation out of google:
https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dood_van_Mitch_Henriquez
Last edited by Auryn on 12 Jun 2020, edited 1 time in total.
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EdwardKiy
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Post 12 Jun 2020

selig wrote:
12 Jun 2020

OK so if poverty = criminally inclined, then the rich countries would have fewer criminals, correct? But despite the US being one of the richest countries (12th richest according to what I was able to find), it has a much higher incarceration rate than ANY other country by a long shot.

So, are we still certain there's a link, and if so do we still have a problem because we are putting far more folks in prison per capita here in the US than would account for "social circumstances"?

And besides that, IMO the real issue isn't if you are criminally inclined or not, or if the police are arresting you at a higher rate or not - it's WHY ARE YOU BEING KILLED FOR CRIMES LIKE PASSING A FAKE $20 BILL?!?
1. That would be a hasty generalization. A country being rich does not equate to all its citizens being rich. US is a conglomerate of 50 countries (economies) - some richer, some poorer, each having richer and poorer areas. It also has the highest or near-highest immigrant turnover of any other country. All of this matters.


2. As to the racial profiling/harassment/murder dilemma (and it is a police dilemma the way I see it), try looking at it this way:

You are time-traveler cop. You are in a room with 100 suspects of 10 murders that will take place later today. 25 of these suspects are white, 25 hispanic, 25 black, 25 asian. You have exactly enough time to question 10 of these people and your objective is to stop as much crime as possible for the day. After the hour is elapsed, everyone will be let go. Statistically, you know that 5 of these 10 upcoming murders will be executed by black people (because they represent a poorer minority more inclined to crime, not because of their skin color. Here's the study once again:https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 4v09n03_03 ).

So, who do you approach (harass) to prevent most crime in the time you are given? Is it racism or is it math?

3. Nobody's being killed for passing a fake $20 bill. The guy was murdered by a degenerate cop. We don't know if the two had any encounters prior to this and what caused what, but it's quite possible, because the black guy did not just "pass a fake $20 bill", but had an illustrious criminal record. This must be taken into account if you want to understand why he was targeted. It's a possibility.
Last edited by EdwardKiy on 12 Jun 2020, edited 1 time in total.

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guitfnky
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Post 12 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
12 Jun 2020
Maybe it's going to sound waaay to cold when I say this, but I would venture that that is what tragically happens sometimes when a bad/resentful attitude towards the police meets a highly militarized/authoritarian style of policing.
victim blaming.

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joeyluck
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Post 12 Jun 2020

I'm going to be real—the numbers and arguments some of you try to throw around here are the exact arguments that the racists; the kkk, the neo-nazis and white nationalists here in the US try to make. Your numbers and your reasoning are completely off and very racist.

The racism, inequality, and injustice are well-known and understood here. There is a huge movement ongoing because the majority of people get it. If you don't get, then just move on. I don't understand any of the arguments against it.

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Auryn
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Post 12 Jun 2020

guitfnky wrote:
12 Jun 2020
this is the kind of plausible deniability argument that makes meaningful reform so difficult. systemic racism isn’t inherent to the individual act. systemic racism is inherent to the PATTERN of acts.
Dude I just don't know what you are advocating here? What would you prefer? A policy where the police selectively ignore black crime because 'there are already too many black people in prison?
Look, if you want to radically equalize prison sentencing in the USA... there are 2.3 million people in prison in the USA, the average length of a prison sentence is 2.6 years (both per google) which adds up to an approximate total of 5980000 years to be served. If we divide that up completely equally among the US population, 328.200.000, we could just sentence everyone in the US to 5980000 / 328.200.000 = 0.0182 years, which is 6.65 days, in prison and be done with it. Would that seem a fairer deal?

I know I'm being facetious but the point I'm trying to make is you have to factor in individual responsibility somewhere.
guitfnky wrote:
12 Jun 2020
you can’t prove George Floyd was murdered because of racism. but if you look at the pattern of law enforcement behavior toward people of color, and you see the freedom from consequence those officers are afforded, the racism is plain as day.
There is no racism in the freedom from consequences if that freedom is afforded equally to officers of all races, which I believe is the case.
guitfnky wrote:
12 Jun 2020
the fact that explicit racism isn’t legal anymore works to the benefit of implicit racism. an officer who yells a racial slur as they’re mistreating someone removes all doubt, but if they just keep their mouths shut, how can anyone know for sure?
You can't. 'Racism' as such is an implicit attitude or belief system, and you can't convict people of thought crime. You can only convict on the basis of clearly racist acts. I realize that sucks, but what is the alternative?
guitfnky wrote:
12 Jun 2020
and honestly, I find the notion that any white person would ever be treated this way over a $20 bill, or some loose cigarettes, absolutely preposterous. it’s magical thinking.
I just posted about this case in my own country https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dood_van_Mitch_Henriquez the guy was of mixed race (Antillian/Caribbean) descent, but could basically pass as white. He was wrestled to the ground by 5(!) officers for (I kid you not) shouting at the police that he had a weapon and pointing towards his crotch. He died on the scene from lack of oxygen. Huge public outcry followed, riots in the city of The Hague.

PIC:
Nieuwe_Compilatie_fotos_Mitch_Henriquez.jpg
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selig
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Post 12 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
12 Jun 2020
Maybe it's going to sound waaay to cold when I say this, but I would venture that that is what tragically happens sometimes when a bad/resentful attitude towards the police meets a highly militarized/authoritarian style of policing.
The guy who was killed was calling the officer with his knee on his neck "sir" till the end - how is that a bad/resentful attitude towards the police?
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EdwardKiy
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Post 12 Jun 2020

joeyluck wrote:
12 Jun 2020

The racism, inequality, and injustice are well-known and understood here. There is a huge movement ongoing because the majority of people get it. If you don't get, then just move on. I don't understand any of the arguments against it.
I understand racism and inequality to some degree. I've seen actual non-figurative slavery 5 years ago at a private party in Saudi Arabia and I have taken part in 2 revolutions, and then I've met the other end of those in surgery. There were so many wounded coming in that we were allowed to resuscitate for only 10 minutes instead of the usual 40 and had to stack the bodies in corridors one over the other. These were un-armed (white) protesters, girls, boys, men and women of all walks of life killed by (white) police. The goal was so honorable and the casualties so great, that anyone doubting the clarity of it was instantly branded as an idiot or an enemy.

Trust me, having a dude choked by a cop in front of a camera doesn't hold a candle to rows of police officers opening machine-gun and sniper fire on a living wall of un-armed protesters. I didn't watch it on TV - I was there when it happened.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7e6B64Iqqg

Years later, the whole thing turned out to be pre-paid and fabricated, as revolutions and public movements usually are. This is part of modern warfare. Don't let this shit happen to you.

Please, take a little more time to research before branding any alternative opinion as "adolf hitler".
Last edited by EdwardKiy on 12 Jun 2020, edited 1 time in total.

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guitfnky
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Post 12 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
12 Jun 2020
guitfnky wrote:
12 Jun 2020
this is the kind of plausible deniability argument that makes meaningful reform so difficult. systemic racism isn’t inherent to the individual act. systemic racism is inherent to the PATTERN of acts.
Dude I just don't know what you are advocating here? What would you prefer? A policy where the police selectively ignore black crime because 'there are already too many black people in prison?
Look, if you want to radically equalize prison sentencing in the USA... there are 2.3 million people in prison in the USA, the average length of a prison sentence is 2.6 years (both per google) which adds up to an approximate total of 5980000 years to be served. If we divide that up completely equally among the US population, 328.200.000, we could just sentence everyone in the US to 5980000 / 328.200.000 = 0.0182 years, which is 6.65 days, in prison and be done with it. Would that seem a fairer deal?

I know I'm being facetious but the point I'm trying to make is you have to factor in individual responsibility somewhere.
guitfnky wrote:
12 Jun 2020
you can’t prove George Floyd was murdered because of racism. but if you look at the pattern of law enforcement behavior toward people of color, and you see the freedom from consequence those officers are afforded, the racism is plain as day.
There is no racism in the freedom from consequences if that freedom is afforded equally to officers of all races, which I believe is the case.
guitfnky wrote:
12 Jun 2020
the fact that explicit racism isn’t legal anymore works to the benefit of implicit racism. an officer who yells a racial slur as they’re mistreating someone removes all doubt, but if they just keep their mouths shut, how can anyone know for sure?
You can't. 'Racism' as such is an implicit attitude or belief system, and you can't convict people of thought crime. You can only convict on the basis of clearly racist acts. I realize that sucks, but what is the alternative?
guitfnky wrote:
12 Jun 2020
and honestly, I find the notion that any white person would ever be treated this way over a $20 bill, or some loose cigarettes, absolutely preposterous. it’s magical thinking.
I just posted about this case in my own country https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dood_van_Mitch_Henriquez the guy was of mixed race (Antillian/Caribbean) descent, but could basically pass as white. He was wrestled to the ground by 5(!) officers for (I kid you not) shouting at the police that he had a weapon and pointing towards his crotch. He died on the scene from lack of oxygen. Huge public outcry followed, riots in the city of The Hague.

PIC:
Nieuwe_Compilatie_fotos_Mitch_Henriquez.jpg
for fuck’s sake, you cannot seriously be talking about “individual responsibility” when a man was choked to death by a police officer over $20. or are you really blind to any responsibility the officer has to, I dunno, do their job? what’s the best way to serve and protect? murder, I guess. I was hoping you were arguing your point in good faith, but now I see that’s likely not the case. we can’t have an honest dialogue if you’re going to hold a civilian to a higher standard than a police officer.

and that’s to say nothing of the fact that, as Selig pointed out, George Floyd was compliant and respectful. if you can’t see that he exhibited more personal responsibility than the cop who murdered him, I mean...

and I’m not talking about convicting one shithead cop of hate crimes. if he’s convicted of murder, that’ll be plenty for me. it’s a pretty low fucking bar, though, considering he kneeled on a man’s neck for almost 10 minutes, and it’s on video tape. but I digress—what I’m talking about is reforming the system, because it’s racist.

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Auryn
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Post 12 Jun 2020

selig wrote:
12 Jun 2020
Auryn wrote:
12 Jun 2020
Maybe it's going to sound waaay to cold when I say this, but I would venture that that is what tragically happens sometimes when a bad/resentful attitude towards the police meets a highly militarized/authoritarian style of policing.
The guy who was killed was calling the officer with his knee on his neck "sir" till the end - how is that a bad/resentful attitude towards the police?
Look, I don't much appreciate making a hugely elaborate and I would say pretty well reasoned post, providing links etc and the only point you care to respond to is the one that triggers you.

I was trying to answer a broader point with that sentence, e.g. "why/how do incidents like this keep happening?" in line with the rest of my post, and I perceive there to be a pretty resentful attitude towards the police in general (ACAB is not new) in the US. With this specific incident I don't know what preceded the video, all I have seen is the video of the guy on the ground, which I switched off after not too long because I found it hard to watch a video of a person suffocating/dying. All I know is he somehow ended up in a situation with these police officers on top of him.



I've linked to this video before but I feel I should re-post it because all of you seem to be thinking I just love to watch black people go to jail. I've gotten a fair bit of my opinion about this topic from listening to these two guys discuss the incident and related matters. I've timestamped it where some of the comments on the events that lead up to the incident start. I feel they are basically expressing the same sentiment that I feel: "the cops don't just drag you out of a car and start choking you, man!"

The reason I care so much is an entirely different matter. I care so much because I'm afraid. I feel that the level of political/social polarization in the US is reaching INSANE levels and it feels like any similar incident, properly recorded, will light this powder keg. It feels a bit like watching the San Andreas fault line by now, just waiting for "the big one". If the US seriously destabilizes (e.g. massive social unrest, it becomes unclear who is in charge of the country, and crucially, the military) the domestic death toll will not be the only cost, the rest of the world is going to pay a price as well. If the world's most powerful military goes AWOL because nobody's driving, other countries will inevitably take the opportunity to advance their territorial ambitions. For example China might think it a good moment to "reunite" with Taiwan, for example. Or Russia with Ukraine. It's hard to predict what will happen, but some kind of violence is going to ensue.

What I'm constantly trying to encourage you to do is to find ways to build bridges instead of burning them. If you believe that white supremacy/institutional racism is what ails your country I can respect that. I've tried to argue that it's more likely to be income inequality that's at the root of it. But if you want to go for white supremacy, that's fine. I would still urge you to find a peaceful way to 'overthrow' it. It feels like you guys are so busy 'being right' or 'being righteous' that you seem not to notice that your house is catching fire, and you should be putting out the flames.
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joeyluck
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Post 12 Jun 2020

Black Lives Matter is tending to the flames. Racism and white supremacy is the fire.

Do some better research.

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Auryn
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Post 12 Jun 2020

Reasonable man wrote:
12 Jun 2020


Take the Amy cooper incident , it was filmed on camera phone . What would have hapened here if it wasn't? What do you think is the most likely outcome.?
I don't have the energy to respond to your entire post, but you are a paying customer ;) so I'll just take this. I found this case to be much more obviously a case of egregious, demonstrable racism. You'll get no argument from me about this one. What the woman did was despicable and manipulative.

That's a crazy story about getting the cop reprimanded and being hassled by his collegues, by the way. I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. I'd be interested to hear the details but I can understand you not wanting to post about it on a public forum.
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guitfnky
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Post 12 Jun 2020

stringing a bunch of words together doesn’t make a post “well-reasoned”. and why bother responding to all the bullshit therein, if the argument is trash on its face? not sure why I’ve bothered sticking around in here for so long. and please, casting stones about “fixing our burning house” or whatever—that’s exact what we’re trying to figure out.

🙄

enjoy your white supremacy. I hope it doesn’t last much longer for you.

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plaamook
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Post 13 Jun 2020

guitfnky wrote:
12 Jun 2020

enjoy your white supremacy. I hope it doesn’t last much longer for you.
I knew we’d get there in the end.
If you try too hard to approach this thing from a different angle there can only be one conclusion. If you don’t agree w the mob and all it’s demamds, you’re a racist.
Fantastic.

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Boombastix
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Post 13 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
12 Jun 2020
Skin colour/ethnicity is trivial in this, the real problem is inequality/poverty. What is being perceived as racism is actually a law enforcement bias against poor/lower class people of all races. It's just that in the USA, a lot of poor people are black.
No, this is a complete misunderstanding. Skin color IS a major component of the bias against African-Americans.

From surveys it has been shown that a white person can feel threatened just because the other person is black.
A black middle class couple with good credit rating may have to pay a higher interest rate from banks than a white couple with identical credit rating.
A black person is more likely to be stopped by a police, walking or in a car. Sometimes the police gives out a description saying black, 5'11", male. Then they use that to basically harass anyone black fitting such vague description. This would not happen to whites if the description was white, 5'11", male.
We just had a school funding case around here where an all white school board, redirected money away from a black school to a white school. The white school got better higher pay teachers, they got enrichment classes like music/art.

And I just mention a small portion of the issues, and they are all about skin color and have nothing to do with poverty.
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