What is going on in the USA and stuff

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Auryn
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Post 11 Jun 2020

guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
buddha is a symbol of peace, for one.
to you, he is, but obviously not to some muslims... which is the point I was making with the remark about playing the role arbiter of history. It is very subjective. Whether Christopher Columbus is a great explorer, a deplorable slave trader or just some dude with a boat and a lot of luck is pretty much up to what books you read. You can point to Hitler as an example of someone who is uniformely BAD, but who else? Ghenghis Khan? I bet some people in mongolia would disagree.
guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
Hitler was historically important. so was Robert Lee and the other statues that have been taken down, yet you seemed to be agreeing with Joey’s assertion that it’s okay for the confederate ones to be taken down, when you said this:
you were just arguing that the confederate statues were specifically designed to be propaganda, and that's why they should be taken down.
you seemed to be taking issue with removing the Columbus statues, but not the confederate ones.

either all historically important figures’ monuments should still stand, or none of them should, by your logic.
I was pointing to the fact that Joey was arguing for the removal of the confederate statues because of their explicit purpose as propaganda. But later on he condones the removal of Columbus as well, when it's a lot harder to argue that that statue is some kind of propaganda. I mean you could say it advertises colonialism, but by that token Caesar statues promote Roman Imperialism, Cleopatra statues promote Egyptian hegemony etc etc etc. Which is a slippery slope.
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selig
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Post 11 Jun 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
11 Jun 2020
selig wrote:
11 Jun 2020
[posted a relevant chart]
Much respect for whatever you have to say, Mr. Selig, but did you happen to notice how convoluted the phrasing is on that poster and how it lacks any context whatsoever?


Here's one from the FBI. Remember, Afro-Americans are a 13% minority in the US

homicide by race.JPG
I'm not following, can you be specific? The text was simple and clear, at least to me - black folks are 2.5 times more likely to be killed as white (despited being a small minority of the overall population, which only exaggerates the statistic, no?).
What should I take away from the chart you just posted?
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selig
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Post 11 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
11 Jun 2020
I was pointing to the fact that Joey was arguing for the removal of the confederate statues because of their explicit purpose as propaganda. But later on he condones the removal of Columbus as well, when it's a lot harder to argue that that statue is some kind of propaganda. I mean you could say it advertises colonialism, but by that token Caesar statues promote Roman Imperialism, Cleopatra statues promote Egyptian hegemony etc etc etc. Which is a slippery slope.
I say let's deal with each issue on it's own merits rather than saying we can't deal with Columbus right now because it MIGHT led to "something" later…
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guitfnky
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Post 11 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
11 Jun 2020
guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
buddha is a symbol of peace, for one.
to you, he is, but obviously not to some muslims... which is the point I was making with the remark about playing the role arbiter of history. It is very subjective. Whether Christopher Columbus is a great explorer, a deplorable slave trader or just some dude with a boat and a lot of luck is pretty much up to what books you read. You can point to Hitler as an example of someone who is uniformely BAD, but who else? Ghenghis Khan? I bet some people in mongolia would disagree.
guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
Hitler was historically important. so was Robert Lee and the other statues that have been taken down, yet you seemed to be agreeing with Joey’s assertion that it’s okay for the confederate ones to be taken down, when you said this:



you seemed to be taking issue with removing the Columbus statues, but not the confederate ones.

either all historically important figures’ monuments should still stand, or none of them should, by your logic.
I was pointing to the fact that Joey was arguing for the removal of the confederate statues because of their explicit purpose as propaganda. But later on he condones the removal of Columbus as well, when it's a lot harder to argue that that statue is some kind of propaganda. I mean you could say it advertises colonialism, but by that token Caesar statues promote Roman Imperialism, Cleopatra statues promote Egyptian hegemony etc etc etc. Which is a slippery slope.
you know the slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy, right?

which brings us to the exact point. good and bad exist on a spectrum. we all have to draw lines somewhere. if the line is only “historical significance” then it’s a lot easier choice to make. but the point of a monument isn’t ONLY to capture historical significance. it’s also to hold up those historically significant figures. BOTH have to be considered in deciding whether a historical figure should be immortalized in stone. this is why I bring up clearly over-the-top examples like Ted Bundy and Hitler. we shouldn’t have monuments to them because they don’t represent anything we as a society should want to glorify, though they both have historical significance. we shouldn’t have monuments to my sister either, because despite being an incredibly caring, good person, she has little historical significance.

I suppose I’m just meandering now, but what I’m trying to convey is just that if there are valid reasons for keeping Christopher Columbus statues (and there may be; I just haven’t heard any yet), they don’t include only historical significance, and they don’t include slippery slope worries.

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EdwardKiy
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Post 11 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
11 Jun 2020

I'm not in favour of tearing down statues but this is also extremely unhelpful. "there are more poor black people because of historical reasons" so... that's just tough shit for black people? Come on. The fundamental problem here is one of inequality. If inequality becomes too extreme and is not addressed, this will inevitably lead to violence. It has to be adressed.
Yes, that's tough shit for ANY people who are at a disadvantage historically. Most of these people aren't even black. I'm not saying it's great. It's just what it is. And YES, it must be addressed. But how? Everyone already has equal opportunities, in the US at least. Welfare doesn't work for either side. Make the police say "sorry" and fire a bunch of people - would that fix it? What are the other options? Tearing down statues and editing out the bad hair and costumes in 70s movies?

Take a closer look at this one, broad daylight NY:
https://youtu.be/XP3QHr_wQUo
notice how the offenders are all wearing decent clothing, have phones etc? They seem to have enough to get by in NY, so I'll assume that what's missing for them isn't money, but education and social values. It's like none of them had a loving mother or even anyone to share some kindness with them. Maybe affordable education over generations could help, but if that was as easy, there would be no problem by now. There must be some resistance from within.
Auryn wrote:
11 Jun 2020
I mean, I get what you are saying but the fringe right wing has an equal tendency to glorify violence, gun ownership, materialism, hardline bible thumping etc etc. I mean they elected Donald Trump. His attitude is EXACTLY that of a gangsta rapper, e.g. "nobody fucks with me, I'm just swimming in money and I always win, grab women by the pussy etc etc"
Also: tons of white people bought those gangsta rap albums, making some of those black rappers very wealthy actually
Agreed. Do we learn something from this? Pretending to be bad = good. Being bad = bad. Something like this? But is it worth making a lot of money by pretending to be someone you are not, so then you can spend all this money on therapy because by then you become so bipolar and manic that you can't tie your laces IF YOU SUCCEED? Isn't there a better plan of action that can be sold to the youth?

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EdwardKiy
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Post 11 Jun 2020

selig wrote:
11 Jun 2020
I'm not following, can you be specific? The text was simple and clear, at least to me - black folks are 2.5 times more likely to be killed as white (despited being a small minority of the overall population, which only exaggerates the statistic, no?).
What should I take away from the chart you just posted?
Sure, it's simple and clear but also completely pointless without context.

Women are 2.5x more likely to get lipstick allergies than men.
NBA referees are racist, because they penalize black players 2.5x times more often.

I understand that the question of being murdered by police is no laughing matter, but I just tried to illustrate my point simply.



I'd be quite happy if from the statistics you'd take away that despite being 13% of the population, Afro-Americans make up more than half of all homicides.

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guitfnky
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Post 11 Jun 2020

but what causes the behavior in the first place? it’s super easy to say half of all murders are caused by minorities, but presenting it that way presupposes that race is the reason minorities are responsible for more homicides.

why might that be? if you throw away the rationale that race is the cause of the behavior (which you should, because it’s false, lazy, and inherently racist), you can start looking at identifying the true underlying cause.

socioeconomic pressures which people of color are more likely to encounter could be the cause. if you look at those same numbers and break them down by socioeconomic status, I suspect you’d see that more people of ALL races are more prone to violent behavior, given a particular socioeconomic status, and ALL races are less prone to violent behavior given a different status. of course there are probably other factors I’m not thinking of, but the bottom line is, race is not the bottom line (unless you are racist).

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EdwardKiy
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Post 11 Jun 2020

TrevaRanks wrote:
11 Jun 2020

Don't come with the 'ad-hominem' when the guy's opening line is talking about a murder victim being a felon, as if that makes his life any less valuable. I didn't see you pulling him up for that. The victim's still been murdered by an oppressive, racist institution regardless of what he thinks about their character.

I didn't call him an a**hole. I'm just telling it how it is. 99% of employers wouldn't hire somebody if they heard them spouting that kind of rubbish, no matter who else was in the running for the job. I'm not saying some employers won't hire to fill quotas but I find it staggering that it hasn't occurred to him that he didn't get the job for any other reason than positive discrimination. It's an entitled attitude and disrepectful to the person who got the job. He may be an a**hole, he may not. I know what I think but that's irrelevant! 😄

Also, the person in question is a woman of colour, not a 'lady'. It's 2020 FFS
The guy did 4 years for armed robbery. That's a felony. He's a felon. The cop is a murderer and a sociopath. I have a family and a house, which I would very much like not to be threatened by an armed thug on drugs (kind of like the felon i mentioned earlier), so it makes his life less valuable to me. On a scale of 1 to 10 I'd value his life at about 4 (he's not a murderer or a rapist and he did something around the church so maybe there was some potential for him to improve), but he isn't docile and useless enough to be in the middle. To compare it to another black life, someone like Scott Joplin - I would give a solid 9. The cop is an easy 1-2 (a bonus point for being white SIKE! He'd get 2 points if he'd actually done some good for some people while being a cop and he will still do time for the murder).

As to the job interview, I was told bluntly by the interviewer that I didn't get it because of the quota and that's why I was confident sharing this experience. Maybe he only did it to make it easy on me - then you're probably right. But don't worry, I don't go to job interviews anymore to save me the embarrassment of naming things for what they are. The woman of color had rudimentary knowledge of English and so was a terrible fit for the post, which involved a lot of talking and reading. I, on the other hand, had to get an IELTS score of 8.5 just to get the visa to come to this interview.

Thank you for not calling me an a**hole twice, though, much appreciated. Would've totally ruined my day.

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diminished
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Post 11 Jun 2020

If Reason Studios didn't make this forum unattractive enough yet, this thread sure as hell did.

Rating people's "worth" on a scale from one to ten - unfuckingbelievable, Adolf would be so proud of you.

Thanks to all of you for showing your true colors.
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littlejam
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Post 11 Jun 2020

hello,

i grew up in abq, nm, usa
that state i believe has the highest rate of teen pregnancy
that state has the highest rate of crystal meth cases
that state has the highest case of drunk driving arrests
and there's not very many black people living there

one of the smartest students in my English class, here in brooklyn, ny said
'no, no, mr b, i can't show how smart i am, because then the white man would expect me to be smart all the time'
he also said, 'money can't buy happiness, but i'd rather cry in a ferrari'
a female student said, 'if you're standing on the edge of a cliff, don't think just jump'
we had a ball with that one / it divided the class
there are so many ways to interpret a situation

i also understand now that tribes in africa sould out other tribes into slavery
so african people are more complicit in the 'slavery' thing then they state

question: is an 'average african american' or a 'minority' better off with a life of struggle here in the usa
or would they be having a better quality of life in their native country?

it's nice having these types of conversations in the classrooms
discussions get heated, curse words are thrown, people walk out
but we never yelled at each other
someone would make a joke and we'd all start laughing
we always respected each other because we were learning
and admitted that we didn't know everything

have a blessed day and mahalos,

j
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Auryn
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Post 11 Jun 2020

selig wrote:
11 Jun 2020
I say let's deal with each issue on it's own merits rather than saying we can't deal with Columbus right now because it MIGHT led to "something" later…
Yes, well I'd say you should think (long and hard) before you act. You're a moderator for crying out loud! ;) Imagine what your job would be like if everyone had a "post now and deal with the blowback later" attitude
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Auryn
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Post 11 Jun 2020

guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
you know the slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy, right?

which brings us to the exact point. good and bad exist on a spectrum. we all have to draw lines somewhere. if the line is only “historical significance” then it’s a lot easier choice to make. but the point of a monument isn’t ONLY to capture historical significance. it’s also to hold up those historically significant figures. BOTH have to be considered in deciding whether a historical figure should be immortalized in stone. this is why I bring up clearly over-the-top examples like Ted Bundy and Hitler. we shouldn’t have monuments to them because they don’t represent anything we as a society should want to glorify, though they both have historical significance. we shouldn’t have monuments to my sister either, because despite being an incredibly caring, good person, she has little historical significance.

I suppose I’m just meandering now, but what I’m trying to convey is just that if there are valid reasons for keeping Christopher Columbus statues (and there may be; I just haven’t heard any yet), they don’t include only historical significance, and they don’t include slippery slope worries.
The way I see it, a slippery slope is simply an argument that an action will have dire and unintended consequences down the road. It can be a fallacy, like saying that buying one of Selig's RE's is certain to lead you down the road to bankruptcy, but it can also be true, like saying that if you carelessly accept this pamphlet that decries Jews as the source of your countries woes, it will lead to a genocide of 6 million people.

I do get your point about statues not only being historical markers but also vehicles for the lionization of historical people. I am absolutely willing to concede that this is a grey issue, where I certainly don't feel there is a right and wrong answer. I'm wondering whether you are willing to concede the same? In a sense I'm still waiting on an answer to the question why we should topple Columbus but keep Caesar or Alexander or Ghenghis Khan?

The problem I see is that if you judge all of these historical figures by today's standards, none of them come out smelling like roses and by that logic all should go. Columbus was a horrible racist from a time when just about everyone on the iberian peninsula had that attitude. Caesar was an emperor from a time when it was common to wage wars of extinction (e.g. slaughter every man, take no prisoners, keep women for mating if you feel like it) and by those standards he was actually sort of progressive since he let conquered people live under his rule. Even so, he still slaughtered thousands for the satisfaction of his own vain ambitions.

The question is still: how are we to judge these people? Do you think you would have fared better in their shoes, given wealth and power? Do you think yourself such a paragon of unassailable virtue? Anyone who answers 'yes' unequivocally to these last few questions scares me more than some old statue.
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guitfnky
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Post 11 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
11 Jun 2020
guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
you know the slippery slope argument is a logical fallacy, right?

which brings us to the exact point. good and bad exist on a spectrum. we all have to draw lines somewhere. if the line is only “historical significance” then it’s a lot easier choice to make. but the point of a monument isn’t ONLY to capture historical significance. it’s also to hold up those historically significant figures. BOTH have to be considered in deciding whether a historical figure should be immortalized in stone. this is why I bring up clearly over-the-top examples like Ted Bundy and Hitler. we shouldn’t have monuments to them because they don’t represent anything we as a society should want to glorify, though they both have historical significance. we shouldn’t have monuments to my sister either, because despite being an incredibly caring, good person, she has little historical significance.

I suppose I’m just meandering now, but what I’m trying to convey is just that if there are valid reasons for keeping Christopher Columbus statues (and there may be; I just haven’t heard any yet), they don’t include only historical significance, and they don’t include slippery slope worries.
The way I see it, a slippery slope is simply an argument that an action will have dire and unintended consequences down the road. It can be a fallacy, like saying that buying one of Selig's RE's is certain to lead you down the road to bankruptcy, but it can also be true, like saying that if you carelessly accept this pamphlet that decries Jews as the source of your countries woes, it will lead to a genocide of 6 million people.

I do get your point about statues not only being historical markers but also vehicles for the lionization of historical people. I am absolutely willing to concede that this is a grey issue, where I certainly don't feel there is a right and wrong answer. I'm wondering whether you are willing to concede the same? In a sense I'm still waiting on an answer to the question why we should topple Columbus but keep Caesar or Alexander or Ghenghis Khan?

The problem I see is that if you judge all of these historical figures by today's standards, none of them come out smelling like roses and by that logic all should go. Columbus was a horrible racist from a time when just about everyone on the iberian peninsula had that attitude. Caesar was an emperor from a time when it was common to wage wars of extinction (e.g. slaughter every man, take no prisoners, keep women for mating if you feel like it) and by those standards he was actually sort of progressive since he let conquered people live under his rule. Even so, he still slaughtered thousands for the satisfaction of his own vain ambitions.

The question is still: how are we to judge these people? Do you think you would have fared better in their shoes, given wealth and power? Do you think yourself such a paragon of unassailable virtue? Anyone who answers 'yes' unequivocally to these last few questions scares me more than some old statue.
if you’ll notice, I’ve never defended the existence of a monument to Caesar. I don’t know enough about him to comment, which is why I haven’t.

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Auryn
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Post 11 Jun 2020

guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
but what causes the behavior in the first place? it’s super easy to say half of all murders are caused by minorities, but presenting it that way presupposes that race is the reason minorities are responsible for more homicides.

why might that be? if you throw away the rationale that race is the cause of the behavior (which you should, because it’s false, lazy, and inherently racist), you can start looking at identifying the true underlying cause.

socioeconomic pressures which people of color are more likely to encounter could be the cause. if you look at those same numbers and break them down by socioeconomic status, I suspect you’d see that more people of ALL races are more prone to violent behavior, given a particular socioeconomic status, and ALL races are less prone to violent behavior given a different status. of course there are probably other factors I’m not thinking of, but the bottom line is, race is not the bottom line (unless you are racist).
Well, if that's you're point than basically we agree. Poor/low social status people are more likely to commit crime/violence. The root problem is rampant inequality. What you've actually said here, is what those professors in the interview I posted a few pages ago were also saying: it's not really a race issue.
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guitfnky
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Post 11 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
11 Jun 2020
guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
but what causes the behavior in the first place? it’s super easy to say half of all murders are caused by minorities, but presenting it that way presupposes that race is the reason minorities are responsible for more homicides.

why might that be? if you throw away the rationale that race is the cause of the behavior (which you should, because it’s false, lazy, and inherently racist), you can start looking at identifying the true underlying cause.

socioeconomic pressures which people of color are more likely to encounter could be the cause. if you look at those same numbers and break them down by socioeconomic status, I suspect you’d see that more people of ALL races are more prone to violent behavior, given a particular socioeconomic status, and ALL races are less prone to violent behavior given a different status. of course there are probably other factors I’m not thinking of, but the bottom line is, race is not the bottom line (unless you are racist).
Well, if that's you're point than basically we agree. Poor/low social status people are more likely to commit crime/violence. The root problem is rampant inequality. What you've actually said here, is what those professors in the interview I posted a few pages ago were also saying: it's not really a race issue.
well, yes and no...it depends on what you’re talking about. if you’re trying to compare the rate of violent behavior of people of color vs. whites (as Edward was, and which I was responding to, here), then that’s correct—it is likely more socioeconomic than racial.

but if you’re talking about how society in general treats people of color from a systemic perspective, then that is a racial issue.

I didn’t see the comment you mentioned, so I’m not sure what the context was, exactly.

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Auryn
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Post 11 Jun 2020

guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
if you’ll notice, I’ve never defended the existence of a monument to Caesar. I don’t know enough about him to comment, which is why I haven’t.
I don't think you need to know that much about him in order to get a vague uncomfortable feeling that destroying any remaining statues of him might not be the right thing to do.

Anyway, I was watching a video the other day of a cleaner removing the word "racist" from a Winston Churchill statue that had been defaced the day before during a protest. The man was black, and ironically also called Winston. I was actually quite moved by what that man did there. I think he could have refused, and his choice would have been respected. I could say I consider him a hero, even though he just did his job. If you ask me we should leave Winston Churchill (even though he was undeniably a racist) but put up a statue of Winston the Cleaner next to him.
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littlejam
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Post 11 Jun 2020

hello,

here is another good one
living in brooklyn
one side of the street was mostly Caribbean black people
the other side was mostly American black people
when the police showed up to settle disputes it was mostly on the American black side of the block
the Caribbean side of the block were much more respectful and appreciative of the usa
the block was littered with nice cars, too, on both sides: lexus, merecedes, jeep...

oh, and it takes about 2 weeks for a Caribbean black student to realize that they can get away with murder
after watching the behavior of American black students
my Guyanese girlfriend at the time would give her son 'licks' if he misbehaved
much more discipline in the islands than here in the states

black people have racism within their own culture based on the 'lightness' of their skin

the class hierarchy in the islands is loud and clear, too

in the usa, we have white trailer trash and rednecks and crackers

to me, a lot of the separation revolves around money

in class, we would sit around telling racist jokes
they were so funny, they were jokes, everyone appears to be more sensitive these days
comedians are gonna be out of a job very soon

cheers,

j
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Auryn
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Post 11 Jun 2020

guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
well, yes and no...it depends on what you’re talking about. if you’re trying to compare the rate of violent behavior of people of color vs. whites (as Edward was, and which I was responding to, here), then that’s correct—it is likely more socioeconomic than racial.

but if you’re talking about how society in general treats people of color from a systemic perspective, then that is a racial issue.

I didn’t see the comment you mentioned, so I’m not sure what the context was, exactly.
Well that's the point, right? You can read George Floyd's death as a race issue, but the incident itself does not necessitate such a reading. It depends on the perspective you're taking. Like I asked before, if George Floyd had been a white guy with a mullet, a wife beater and a bad attitude, can you be certain he would have lived?

I'll tell you this: there are a lot of pundits, spokespeople and influencers out there who want it to be a race issue, so they can exploit the ensuing chaos to elevate themselves politically, socially or financially. They want to stoke chaos and racial animosity, because to them...

CUE LITTLEFINGER! (NSFW)




do you want to cede control/authority to the Littlefingers of the world?
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Boombastix
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Post 11 Jun 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
11 Jun 2020
selig wrote:
11 Jun 2020
[posted a relevant chart]
Much respect for whatever you have to say, Mr. Selig, but did you happen to notice how convoluted the phrasing is on that poster and how it lacks any context whatsoever?

Here's one from the FBI. Remember, Afro-Americans are a 13% minority in the US
Socio-economics ARE relevant when discussion crime rates. If you try to ignore it then it displays ignorance. Research exists about this, you can Google and read about.
What should draw your attention on this chart is actually male vs female, it is close to a 10:1 ration. So, yes, violent MEN are a huge problem, but that would need a separate thread.
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Boombastix
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Post 11 Jun 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
11 Jun 2020
So you don't have to wreck your brain figuring out which one is next, here's a BLM list just for the UK
Before you found that chart, how many of these people did you actually know about? And did you know why the statue was put up, did you know about their problematic history?
Or did you just suddenly start to care about "history". I mean if you never cared about them as a part of history, you can still immerse yourself of history from library books and so on, but ask yourself: What is the sudden interest in statues you probably didn't even know existed?
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joeyluck
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Post 11 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
11 Jun 2020
joeyluck wrote:
11 Jun 2020


Yep, that's a good one to take down as well. Next.
Slippery slope man... you were just arguing that the confederate statues were specifically designed to be propaganda, and that's why they should be taken down. How is a Columbus statue propaganda? How is it different from a Caesar statue? And who made you the arbiter of historical justice? I'm not trying to be cheeky here man, I'm serious. How is this not a slippery slope? Where does it end?
The human race is but a tiny blip in the history of Earth. And the United States is a speck of that. I don't care about any monuments to awful people and the hoarding of monuments.

Columbus was terrible and we're talking about history dating back to the late 1400s. The statue in Richmond is from 1927 and the one in Boston was from 1979. The history is not remotely shared. Just some crappy statues honoring the wrong people.

The landscape is always changing. We can protect and curate art, and even understand that those things change too. We have separation of church and state here, so any statues of religious figures can exist in places of worship.

Even Robert E. Lee objected to having monuments and his descendents are happy to see them removed.

So no I'm am not concerned in the slightest about a "slippery slope" that you speak of involving monuments to terrible people. Protect the land, protect the national parks, preserve what we can of the earth. Don't get so caught up in statues and worshiping people, especially the bad ones.

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Boombastix
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Post 11 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
11 Jun 2020
Slippery slope man... you were just arguing that the confederate statues were specifically designed to be propaganda, and that's why they should be taken down. How is a Columbus statue propaganda? How is it different from a Caesar statue? And who made you the arbiter of historical justice? I'm not trying to be cheeky here man, I'm serious. How is this not a slippery slope? Where does it end?
As with everything, it can become a slippery slope if done wrong or overzealous. It is a current trend at universities to act overly offended by things that are uncomfortable and there is also this call-out culture too. It can spiral out of control.

BUT there is no reason to keep celebratory monuments of people who committed horrific crimes against humanity. Sort of the reason why you don't see Hitler statues in Germany and why Belgium needs to re-think their King Leopold statues. The Belgians should of course also make sure that his doings are accurately described in history books, especially those that are used to teach children. Columbus and how schools here in the US teach about him can certainly improve too. Pearl Harbor was made into a memorial, but I don't think you will find a celebratory monument of the US bombings of Hiroshima. Point is you have to understand what the purpose was behind putting up the statue too (for the statues in question: often for the wrong reason)

To define an exact line may not be easy, so probably this has to be on a case by case bases, considering what was socially acceptable back in the days, vs what is abhorrent with today's standard. History shall always exists in books, but not necessarily be upheld in celebratory fashion (like statues). Germany has preserved Nazi camps for that very reason, and I can promise you there was not any Nazi celebratory things to be found the day a visited Dachau. It was just chilling and my stomach cramped...
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plaamook
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Post 12 Jun 2020

In Bristol the took the statue of Colston down and threw him in the canal. Then some other diver went and helped get the thing out because of boat traffic.
The mayor is talking about putting it in a museum.
Interestingly I read that while this controversial statue’s removal has been long debated, protest groups originally wanted a plaque or marker explaining the truth behind him so that people understood he wasn’t just a wealthy merchant that helped the city. He was also a slave trader of a pretty high caliber.

Some of them are very skilfully made. Seems a shame to just chuck em.

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Boombastix
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Post 12 Jun 2020

plaamook wrote:
12 Jun 2020
In Bristol the took the statue of Colston down and threw him in the canal. Then some other diver went and helped get the thing out because of boat traffic.
The mayor is talking about putting it in a museum.
Interestingly I read that while this controversial statue’s removal has been long debated, protest groups originally wanted a plaque or marker explaining the truth behind him so that people understood he wasn’t just a wealthy merchant that helped the city. He was also a slave trader of a pretty high caliber.

Some of them are very skilfully made. Seems a shame to just chuck em.
I think a museum is good place to show them and tell the whole story, it is then no longer celebratory, just like a history book (hopefully). But even history books are biased. IIRC Danish King Christian fought the Swedes. And in Denmark the history books call him King Christian the good, but in Sweden's history books he is called King Christian the evil.
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MrFigg
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Post 12 Jun 2020

Boombastix wrote:
12 Jun 2020
plaamook wrote:
12 Jun 2020
In Bristol the took the statue of Colston down and threw him in the canal. Then some other diver went and helped get the thing out because of boat traffic.
The mayor is talking about putting it in a museum.
Interestingly I read that while this controversial statue’s removal has been long debated, protest groups originally wanted a plaque or marker explaining the truth behind him so that people understood he wasn’t just a wealthy merchant that helped the city. He was also a slave trader of a pretty high caliber.

Some of them are very skilfully made. Seems a shame to just chuck em.
I think a museum is good place to show them and tell the whole story, it is then no longer celebratory, just like a history book (hopefully). But even history books are biased. IIRC Danish King Christian fought the Swedes. And in Denmark the history books call him King Christian the good, but in Sweden's history books he is called King Christian the evil.
Remember at the end if the 80s all UK reportage of the IRA referred to them as terrorists. Watching the news in Lyon, France however, where there is a catholic majority, they were hailed as freedom fighters. So there you go.
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