What is going on in the USA and stuff

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EdwardKiy
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Post 11 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
11 Jun 2020

Or in terms of rhetoric, it's a straw man. Obviously black people aren't just talking about getting killed by white people when they are talking about "systemic oppression", there's getting harrassed by police, difficulty finding jobs, and in general just relative poverty.
This is what I'm trying to find out - what is "systemic oppression"? What else is there?

There are more poor black people than there are poor white people, because that's how it worked out historically. Naturally, this results in a higher % of black people being criminals, which, in turn, results in a higher % of black people being harassed by the police. Raising socio-economic status reduces crime in both white and black communities equally.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10. ... 4v09n03_03

My country is poor because A, B and C happened, and my country was too stupid/naive/weak/corrupt to counter with X, Y and Z. So what? Should I demand preferential treatment now? Of course not, it's just how it is.

Somehow a "culture" promoting "guns, bitches and bling, pimping cars and selling crack" as if these were achievements, does not work that well towards the acquisition of wealth. Who would've known?
Auryn wrote:
11 Jun 2020

Those are real issues. Like selig previously said in this thread, it's very difficult to know who to trust in the current hyperpolarized climate, and it's certainly possible that an image like that has been doctored for political purposes. (it has references but have you checked them? can you?)
You see, I don't think any of these issues are real. I see a bad cop stepping over the line, killing a person and getting caught, and that's pretty much it. Everything else around this is politics. BLM is just 3 puppets dancing to someone's money - that much you can find on wikipedia.

And what other references would you like to check - I'm all for it.

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Auryn
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Post 11 Jun 2020

-008' wrote:
11 Jun 2020
That is the point. I am purple. The FAR LEFT is pushing all normal folks to the right. They are 100% using this stuff (racism AND pandemics) to their advantage.
I am NOT saying they are making or faking a disease or riots. I am saying they NEVER LET A CRISIS GO TO WASTE.

Remember:

-COVID 19 On the Scene!
-W.H.O. says human to human transmission not likely
-Fauci in Jan/Feb said "no threat to the American pubic"
-Trump bans China and they call him racist and say it wont help.
-Lockdowns must last till forever sorry guys
-Rioting and protesting is OK (but voting in person is not)
-W.H.O. says Asymptomatic Spread is very rare
-Fauci says nope thats wrong

maybe when all the professionals get their stuff together we the people can finally know what to think, right?
Until then ill keep questioning all of it. sorry if that offends you
LOL you sure are purple... with rage ;)

Look man, I don't mind you questioning things, but right now you are choosing sides which I would seriously advise against. I get it, the far left are riling people up with their bullshit silence = complicity rhetoric. Fuck them. But the far right are no better. I don't know examples from american politics but I'll give you a dutch one: there was a big anti-racism protest in Amsterdam about a week ago. The (left-wing) mayor of amsterdam refrained from sending in the police to break up this demonstration, even though protesters were breaking the social distancing rules. She was subsequently pilloried by right wing parties for allowing it to happen... the very same right wing parties that a week prior were protesting the social distancing rules and demanding things to be opened up! This is political opportunism.

Don't fall for the polarization trap. Stand your ground in the middle.
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guitfnky
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Post 11 Jun 2020

“a bad cop stepping over the line”

cute. you might have something there if it had been only one or two. ignorance of the facts, plain and simple...

EdGrip
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Post 11 Jun 2020

Also, "offended". It might comfort some people to think that when someone disagrees with you, it's because they are "offended", not because they think you're wrong.

Again, I'm mainly using UK experience here, but it's only the right who bring up offence. I'm not offended. I don't really understand what it means. I think it means when an old lady in a movie gasps when she hears the word "fuck". That's what I imagine offence is, but it's not a feeling I experience. To me it means, feeling upset by a trivial thing. If a thing is unjust, I feel angry. Almost everything that the right likes to categorise as "offence" is just people being, usually rightly, angry.
"Offended" implies that the thing someone is angry about is trivial and it's their problem that they are angry about it. They have taken offence. That is the only job of that word.

The fact that nobody on the left uses the word, because it doesn't fill a vocabulary role they have a use for, but the right use it all the time as a way to dismiss, is really telling.

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joeyluck
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Post 11 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
11 Jun 2020
joeyluck wrote:
11 Jun 2020
Image

And all of these monuments being taken down are not history, but propaganda. It's about damn time.
This is also pretty unhelpful. Statues and monuments are not just propaganda, they are reminders of history.
You should do some research on confederate monuments. They specifically are propaganda and were erected 25 years and more after the Civil War. They were mass-produced. They were erected to intimidate black people and to glorify the confederacy that fought against the United States. They do not belong. Germany doesn't keep up nazi monuments.

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EdwardKiy
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Post 11 Jun 2020

guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
removing confederate monuments is not even in the same ballpark, county, state, or country as rewriting history. it’s analogous to suggesting that Germany has rewritten history by taking down Nazi symbology. pretty sure we’re all still aware of just how shitty they were.
Oh I wish it were just confederate monuments, but it's just the beginning.

Columbus statues torn down:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... loyd-death

Classic films taken down:
https://www.koimoi.com/hollywood-2/hbo- ... ti-reacts/

EdGrip
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Post 11 Jun 2020

The right love to dismiss other people as disingenuous or silly or emotive or weak, btw.

Snowflakes. Triggered. Virtue signalling. Woke. PC. Offended.

They're all ad hominem attacks to deflect from the actual point and whether the person using the word is in the wrong. If you use those words, that is what is going on. It is noted.

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joeyluck
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Post 11 Jun 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
11 Jun 2020
guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
removing confederate monuments is not even in the same ballpark, county, state, or country as rewriting history. it’s analogous to suggesting that Germany has rewritten history by taking down Nazi symbology. pretty sure we’re all still aware of just how shitty they were.
Oh I wish it were just confederate monuments, but it's just the beginning.

Columbus statues torn down:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... loyd-death
Yep, that's a good one to take down as well. Next.

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guitfnky
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Post 11 Jun 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
11 Jun 2020
guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
removing confederate monuments is not even in the same ballpark, county, state, or country as rewriting history. it’s analogous to suggesting that Germany has rewritten history by taking down Nazi symbology. pretty sure we’re all still aware of just how shitty they were.
Oh I wish it were just confederate monuments, but it's just the beginning.

Columbus statues torn down:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... loyd-death

Classic films taken down:
https://www.koimoi.com/hollywood-2/hbo- ... ti-reacts/
:lol:

you do know that most of what US citizens are taught about Columbus is false, right? so, you know, taking down a monument to falsehood is kinda antithetical to the idea that we’re “rewriting history”. correcting the rewrite would be more accurate.

and requiring context to be added to—well, anything, really—is never a bad idea.

laughable.

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EdwardKiy
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Post 11 Jun 2020

selig wrote:
11 Jun 2020
[posted a relevant chart]
Much respect for whatever you have to say, Mr. Selig, but did you happen to notice how convoluted the phrasing is on that poster and how it lacks any context whatsoever?


Here's one from the FBI. Remember, Afro-Americans are a 13% minority in the US

homicide by race.JPG
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Auryn
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Post 11 Jun 2020

joeyluck wrote:
11 Jun 2020
EdwardKiy wrote:
11 Jun 2020


Oh I wish it were just confederate monuments, but it's just the beginning.

Columbus statues torn down:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... loyd-death
Yep, that's a good one to take down as well. Next.
Slippery slope man... you were just arguing that the confederate statues were specifically designed to be propaganda, and that's why they should be taken down. How is a Columbus statue propaganda? How is it different from a Caesar statue? And who made you the arbiter of historical justice? I'm not trying to be cheeky here man, I'm serious. How is this not a slippery slope? Where does it end?
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guitfnky
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Post 11 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
11 Jun 2020
joeyluck wrote:
11 Jun 2020


Yep, that's a good one to take down as well. Next.
Slippery slope man... you were just arguing that the confederate statues were specifically designed to be propaganda, and that's why they should be taken down. How is a Columbus statue propaganda? How is it different from a Caesar statue? And who made you the arbiter of historical justice? I'm not trying to be cheeky here man, I'm serious. How is this not a slippery slope? Where does it end?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/ ... real-story

I mean...

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Auryn
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Post 11 Jun 2020

EdGrip wrote:
11 Jun 2020
The right love to dismiss other people as disingenuous or silly or emotive or weak, btw.

Snowflakes. Triggered. Virtue signalling. Woke. PC. Offended.

They're all ad hominem attacks to deflect from the actual point and whether the person using the word is in the wrong. If you use those words, that is what is going on. It is noted.
The left love to dismiss other people as aggressive, authoritarian, bigoted and small-minded

Nazi's, Fascists, Deplorables, Racists, Backwards, Stupid

They're all ad hominem attacks to deflect from the actual point and whether the person using the word is in the wrong. If you use those words, that is what is going on. It is noted.
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EdwardKiy
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Post 11 Jun 2020

joeyluck wrote:
11 Jun 2020
EdwardKiy wrote:
11 Jun 2020


Oh I wish it were just confederate monuments, but it's just the beginning.

Columbus statues torn down:
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... loyd-death
Yep, that's a good one to take down as well. Next.
So you don't have to wreck your brain figuring out which one is next, here's a BLM list just for the UK
racist statues.jpg
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Auryn
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Post 11 Jun 2020

guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
I mean...
you mean what? you are not answering the point, you are just linking to a page that explains that Columbus was not a good person.

Julius Caesar was also not a good person. Alexander the Great was not great either. Do you get where this is going? I remember once reading an expose by Christopher Hitchens about mother Theresa. He called her the Ghoul of Calcutta, and by the end of the book, I kind of saw his point. There's no point in tearing down these people because by the end there will be nobody left standing. People are flawed. This 'insane purity' testing leads nowhere but down.
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EdwardKiy
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Post 11 Jun 2020

guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
Auryn wrote:
11 Jun 2020


Slippery slope man... you were just arguing that the confederate statues were specifically designed to be propaganda, and that's why they should be taken down. How is a Columbus statue propaganda? How is it different from a Caesar statue? And who made you the arbiter of historical justice? I'm not trying to be cheeky here man, I'm serious. How is this not a slippery slope? Where does it end?
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/ ... real-story

I mean...
for a moment there I thought guitfnky, although stepping on his own tail, was going to educate us on how America was actually discovered by Richard Amerike and not Columbus or something like that, but instead it's a rant on how Columbus was a slave owner. I feel like we're getting close to some sort of a revelation here.

So, let me get this straight guitfnky, anyone in history who has ever owned slaves is a monster and all traces of his activity must be purged - is that what you believe?

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guitfnky
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Post 11 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
11 Jun 2020
guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
I mean...
you mean what? you are not answering the point, you are just linking to a page that explains that Columbus was not a good person.

Julius Caesar was also not a good person. Alexander the Great was not great either. Do you get where this is going? I remember once reading an expose by Christopher Hitchens about mother Theresa. He called her the Ghoul of Calcutta, and by the end of the book, I kind of saw his point. There's no point in tearing down these people because by the end there will be nobody left standing. People are flawed. This 'insane purity' testing leads nowhere but down.
most of the “history” we believe about Columbus is wrong. monuments like this serve to glorify that false history, whether it’s intentional or not.

the idea that we should keep any monument around just because it’s been put up for historically accurate reasons is stupid. if there was a statue to Ted Bundy that was put up as a monument to his handsomeness, it might be historically accurate, but also very fucking dumb.

the point is, the history doesn’t go away when you pull down a monument, regardless of the rationale for putting it up in the first place. to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.

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guitfnky
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Post 11 Jun 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
11 Jun 2020
for a moment there I thought guitfnky, although stepping on his own tail, was going to educate us on how America was actually discovered by Richard Amerike and not Columbus or something like that, but instead it's a rant on how Columbus was a slave owner. I feel like we're getting close to some sort of a revelation here.

So, let me get this straight guitfnky, anyone in history who has ever owned slaves is a monster and all traces of his activity must be purged - is that what you believe?
:lol: reading comprehension is important, my friend...

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Auryn
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Post 11 Jun 2020

messed up posting, see below
Last edited by Auryn on 11 Jun 2020, edited 1 time in total.
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Auryn
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Post 11 Jun 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
11 Jun 2020
This is what I'm trying to find out - what is "systemic oppression"? What else is there?

There are more poor black people than there are poor white people, because that's how it worked out historically. Naturally, this results in a higher % of black people being criminals, which, in turn, results in a higher % of black people being harassed by the police. Raising socio-economic status reduces crime in both white and black communities equally.
I'm not in favour of tearing down statues but this is also extremely unhelpful. "there are more poor black people because of historical reasons" so... that's just tough shit for black people? Come on. The fundamental problem here is one of inequality. If inequality becomes too extreme and is not addressed, this will inevitably lead to violence. It has to be adressed.
EdwardKiy wrote:
11 Jun 2020
Somehow a "culture" promoting "guns, bitches and bling, pimping cars and selling crack" as if these were achievements, does not work that well towards the acquisition of wealth. Who would've known?
I mean, I get what you are saying but the fringe right wing has an equal tendency to glorify violence, gun ownership, materialism, hardline bible thumping etc etc. I mean they elected Donald Trump. His attitude is EXACTLY that of a gangsta rapper, e.g. "nobody fucks with me, I'm just swimming in money and I always win, grab women by the pussy etc etc"
Also: tons of white people bought those gangsta rap albums, making some of those black rappers very wealthy actually
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EdwardKiy
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Post 11 Jun 2020

guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
EdwardKiy wrote:
11 Jun 2020


for a moment there I thought guitfnky, although stepping on his own tail, was going to educate us on how America was actually discovered by Richard Amerike and not Columbus or something like that, but instead it's a rant on how Columbus was a slave owner. I feel like we're getting close to some sort of a revelation here.

So, let me get this straight guitfnky, anyone in history who has ever owned slaves is a monster and all traces of his activity must be purged - is that what you believe?
:lol: reading comprehension is important, my friend...
I'm not your friend, palooka. Yes or no?

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guitfnky
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Post 11 Jun 2020

EdwardKiy wrote:
11 Jun 2020
guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020


:lol: reading comprehension is important, my friend...
I'm not your friend, palooka. Yes or no?
sorry, reading comprehension is important, my sweet darling child...

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Auryn
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Post 11 Jun 2020

guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
most of the “history” we believe about Columbus is wrong. monuments like this serve to glorify that false history, whether it’s intentional or not.

the idea that we should keep any monument around just because it’s been put up for historically accurate reasons is stupid. if there was a statue to Ted Bundy that was put up as a monument to his handsomeness, it might be historically accurate, but also very fucking dumb.

the point is, the history doesn’t go away when you pull down a monument, regardless of the rationale for putting it up in the first place. to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.
Christopher Columbus is no more like Ted Bundy than Julius Caesar is like Ted Bundy. Tearing down statues of/monuments for people that are historically important is not something that should be done lightly. Who are you to judge that it should go? Who made you the all-seeing, infinitely wise arbiter of history? Have some humility man. How is this not like ISIS blowing up statues of the buddha because they consider it blasphemous?
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TrevaRanks
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Post 11 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
11 Jun 2020
TrevaRanks wrote:
11 Jun 2020


Of course, that must be the only reason she got the job over you. It couldn't possibly be based on anything you said during your interview, could it? Maybe the examples you used or the answers you gave to the questions? Or how about your personality or your views? No, it must be because you're white and she's not.

I've interviewed a lot of people and sometimes you get a feeling about somebody and, no matter how qualified they are, you just don't want to work with them. I might know somebody who's worked with them and told me what kind of person they are, I may have seen something I didn't like the look of on their social media accounts, or I might just get a bad vibe. You can train somebody to do a job, you can get somebody a qualification, but if they're not the kind of person you want working for your organisation, you're not going to give them the job.

If what you've written is anything to go by, it seems like the employer may have dodged a bullet.
This is also seriously ad-hominem, below the belt type shit. Just take a moment to listen to that conversation between the two professors that I posted earlier on this page. Towards the end, John McWhorter basically admits that he was hired ahead of several other, more qualified candidates because of his skin colour. It happens. Diversity quotas are real, the feel unfair to a lot of people and can breed resentment. Simply saying "they must not have hired you because you are an a*hole" contributes nothing to this discussion.
Don't come with the 'ad-hominem' when the guy's opening line is talking about a murder victim being a felon, as if that makes his life any less valuable. I didn't see you pulling him up for that. The victim's still been murdered by an oppressive, racist institution regardless of what he thinks about their character.

I didn't call him an a**hole. I'm just telling it how it is. 99% of employers wouldn't hire somebody if they heard them spouting that kind of rubbish, no matter who else was in the running for the job. I'm not saying some employers won't hire to fill quotas but I find it staggering that it hasn't occurred to him that he didn't get the job for any other reason than positive discrimination. It's an entitled attitude and disrepectful to the person who got the job. He may be an a**hole, he may not. I know what I think but that's irrelevant! 😄

Also, the person in question is a woman of colour, not a 'lady'. It's 2020 FFS

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guitfnky
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Post 11 Jun 2020

Auryn wrote:
11 Jun 2020
guitfnky wrote:
11 Jun 2020
most of the “history” we believe about Columbus is wrong. monuments like this serve to glorify that false history, whether it’s intentional or not.

the idea that we should keep any monument around just because it’s been put up for historically accurate reasons is stupid. if there was a statue to Ted Bundy that was put up as a monument to his handsomeness, it might be historically accurate, but also very fucking dumb.

the point is, the history doesn’t go away when you pull down a monument, regardless of the rationale for putting it up in the first place. to suggest otherwise is disingenuous.
Christopher Columbus is no more like Ted Bundy than Julius Caesar is like Ted Bundy. Tearing down statues of/monuments for people that are historically important is not something that should be done lightly. Who are you to judge that it should go? Who made you the all-seeing, infinitely wise arbiter of history? Have some humility man. How is this not like ISIS blowing up statues of the buddha because they consider it blasphemous?
buddha is a symbol of peace, for one.

Hitler was historically important. so was Robert Lee and the other statues that have been taken down, yet you seemed to be agreeing with Joey’s assertion that it’s okay for the confederate ones to be taken down, when you said this:
you were just arguing that the confederate statues were specifically designed to be propaganda, and that's why they should be taken down.
you seemed to be taking issue with removing the Columbus statues, but not the confederate ones.

either all historically important figures’ monuments should still stand, or none of them should, by your logic.

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