The R2R group announces they have cracked Reason 11...but then says they can't

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avasopht
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Post 01 May 2020

The option of rent-to-own with a students discount kills piracy.

I bet that 99% of '00's pirates now pay monthly for Netflix, Spotify, Apple Music, and Amazon Prime (all together).

One early study showed that music pirates spent more on music than the average buyer (pre-iTunes era). It's a massive error to think pirates do nothing but pirate products.

And 90% of those downloaded warez probably aren't being used for more than an hour each year. I bet half of them have downloaded every DAW while spending most of their time in Garage Band and iMovies (and happily spending $100s on Kontakt bundles). I haven't even installed half the stuff I buy!
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Boombastix
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Post 01 May 2020

PhillipOrdonez wrote:
01 May 2020
Seckin wrote:
01 May 2020
So, as a result, around 95 percent of the people I know around me who make music on computers use cracked software. I am lucky that I earn enough money to buy my stuff but many can't. And no, their lives don't get destroyed. They keep on making music.
I don't think anyone using pirated software is making any real income from it. If they were, they'd buy their software.
Not so. This is actually a real problem. It is common that the pirated sw users use stolen sw and competes with those who pay for it all.

Chinese engineers sell their services cheaply using pirated expensive CAD systems. Russian and East European producers undercut and sell their ghost productions cheaply.

Western engineers and producers struggle to compete as they have much higher costs just to maintain their licences.

Obviously piracy happens in the Western world too, but in professional circles much less so.

If anyone is just discussing hobbyist producers then this aspect isn't important. But in the world of professionals who has to compete against unfair competition it can be a real problem.
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orthodox
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Post 01 May 2020

PhillipOrdonez wrote:
01 May 2020
orthodox wrote:
01 May 2020
It is not a robbery though. The product does not get lost by the owner. I can't judge a homeless for warming himself by a heating pipe and not paying for the heat.
Would you not judge him if he was making a profitable business out of renting said pipe?
Renting the pipe would be problematic, it's a long pipe. But selling food cooked on it is ok to me.

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Loque
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Post 01 May 2020

avasopht wrote:
01 May 2020
The option of rent-to-own with a students discount kills piracy.

I bet that 99% of '00's pirates now pay monthly for Netflix, Spotify, Apple Music, and Amazon Prime (all together).

One early study showed that music pirates spent more on music than the average buyer (pre-iTunes era). It's a massive error to think pirates do nothing but pirate products.

And 90% of those downloaded warez probably aren't being used for more than an hour each year. I bet half of them have downloaded every DAW while spending most of their time in Garage Band and iMovies (and happily spending $100s on Kontakt bundles). I haven't even installed half the stuff I buy!
Thats an interesting point...While that time in the past everybody copied movies, there was just no good and affordable service available for easy watching of movies. And the big movie companies wanted to stay 50 years in the past and missed the times. Same for music. Now we have a dozen streaming services for a few bucks in the month, all cinemas are closed and TV sucks, because TV is for comercials only.

Today i buy my music (highest quality and a physical device if possible), buy or rent my movies (its just freaking easy and a few clicks), buy my software (free of adware, free updates, less crashes) and so on...

The only bad thing about buying software is, that if you lose your HD, you lose all or most of your licenses and with all that serials, authorizations, logins, self-tricking-protections, always online...its a mess. This is a thing the companies need to fix somehow or pirated stuff will be an option also for paying ppl. There are also ppl that bought software and got a crack, just to get rid of copy protections.

In the end, there is no all-pirated-users are of the same kind and do the same stuff. Some use the software 1h in the month, others make a business with it, some are poor, some are not and so on...The point is, to get as much ppl as possible to know, use, pay, want and appreciate your software and make enough money, to keep everything rolling and a little more.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

KevTav
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Post 01 May 2020

Anarcho types believe everything should be "free". Pure scumbag thinking. And if one uses pirated or cracked software, to do anything, they are an IDIOT. No cracked stuff will ever go on my system.
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miscend
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Post 01 May 2020

PhillipOrdonez wrote:
01 May 2020

I don't think anyone using pirated software is making any real income from it. If they were, they'd buy their software.
You'd be surprised. There was a world famous multi millionaire DJ using a cracked version of Sylenth1 on an instructional video. He went out and bought a legit copy after people in the comments called him out.

I've actually heard people who make music for a living, say things like "Only stupid people spend money on production software, when you can get it for free."

https://www.youredm.com/2015/02/24/avic ... -software/

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Loque
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Post 01 May 2020

miscend wrote:
01 May 2020
PhillipOrdonez wrote:
01 May 2020

I don't think anyone using pirated software is making any real income from it. If they were, they'd buy their software.
You'd be surprised. There was a world famous multi millionaire DJ using a cracked version of Sylenth1 on an instructional video. He went out and bought a legit copy after people in the comments called him out.

I've actually heard people who make music for a living, say things like "Only stupid people spend money on production software, when you can get it for free."

https://www.youredm.com/2015/02/24/avic ... -software/
Paltry and embarrassing.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

Propellerhands
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Post 01 May 2020

PhillipOrdonez wrote:
01 May 2020
orthodox wrote:
01 May 2020


It is not a robbery though. The product does not get lost by the owner. I can't judge a homeless for warming himself by a heating pipe and not paying for the heat.

Would you not judge him if he was making a profitable business out of renting said pipe?
I know I wouldn't. I live my life by the simple moto "live and let live" which is simplified golden rule. You see, heating pipe is bad example since it is physical and actually belongs to someone. If I break a pipe, someone doesn't have it. If I break Windows on my laptop, Bill Gates still has it. Know what I mean? Just my 2 cents.

And yes, I bought reason after a decade of using it without getting any income. Finally I realized that I want to support developers for the great work that they do. And that's the only reason I bought Reason 11. Not because it couldn't be cracked but because I wanted to give them my god damn money.

P.S. And also for Europa synth :mrgreen:

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platzangst
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Post 02 May 2020

orthodox wrote:
01 May 2020
It is not a robbery though. The product does not get lost by the owner.
Propellerhands wrote:
01 May 2020
If I break Windows on my laptop, Bill Gates still has it.
I mean, by this kind of logic, if a record company pulls your music off of your Soundcloud or Bandcamp pages and sells it on Spotify, it isn't a crime, because you still have your music. No property or product was lost!

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orthodox
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Post 02 May 2020

platzangst wrote:
02 May 2020
orthodox wrote:
01 May 2020
It is not a robbery though. The product does not get lost by the owner.
Propellerhands wrote:
01 May 2020
If I break Windows on my laptop, Bill Gates still has it.
I mean, by this kind of logic, if a record company pulls your music off of your Soundcloud or Bandcamp pages and sells it on Spotify, it isn't a crime, because you still have your music. No property or product was lost!
I did not say it was not a crime. I mean it is a lighter crime than theft, because the consequences are not comparable. And there definitely was no reason for calling it 'piracy'. Except maybe for PR effect, like adding more drama to a minor misconduct.

ps: what you describe is unrealistic, because the said company will inevitably get busted for that. I'm talking only about ordinary people who get away with it.
Last edited by orthodox on 02 May 2020, edited 1 time in total.

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Loque
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Post 02 May 2020

orthodox wrote:
02 May 2020
platzangst wrote:
02 May 2020




I mean, by this kind of logic, if a record company pulls your music off of your Soundcloud or Bandcamp pages and sells it on Spotify, it isn't a crime, because you still have your music. No property or product was lost!
I did not say it was not a crime. I mean it is a lighter crime than theft, because the consequences are not comparable. And there definitely was no reason for calling it 'piracy'. Except maybe for PR effect, like adding more drama to a minor misconduct.
I cannot follow your Argumentation. Pirating software is the same as stealing, you just can't "touch" what you have stolen, but still someone lost something or needs to pay for it.

And pirating software is not comparable to steal bread when you didn't eat for a week.

And if you believe all that you said, why you charge money for your RE? Give them away for free or give poor ppl vouchers. And if you don't have vouchers, give them your money so they can buy your RE.
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

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orthodox
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Post 02 May 2020

Loque wrote:
02 May 2020
orthodox wrote:
02 May 2020


I did not say it was not a crime. I mean it is a lighter crime than theft, because the consequences are not comparable. And there definitely was no reason for calling it 'piracy'. Except maybe for PR effect, like adding more drama to a minor misconduct.
I cannot follow your Argumentation. Pirating software is the same as stealing, you just can't "touch" what you have stolen, but still someone lost something or needs to pay for it.

And pirating software is not comparable to steal bread when you didn't eat for a week.

And if you believe all that you said, why you charge money for your RE? Give them away for free or give poor ppl vouchers. And if you don't have vouchers, give them your money so they can buy your RE.
I can't and don't want to change the world. Any business must learn to survive in whatever environment it is in. I can sell it to people who can pay, but I will not open the hunt on those who don't pay.

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Re8et
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Post 02 May 2020

Boombastix wrote:
01 May 2020
PhillipOrdonez wrote:
01 May 2020


I don't think anyone using pirated software is making any real income from it. If they were, they'd buy their software.
Not so. This is actually a real problem. It is common that the pirated sw users use stolen sw and competes with those who pay for it all.

Chinese engineers sell their services cheaply using pirated expensive CAD systems. Russian and East European producers undercut and sell their ghost productions cheaply.

Western engineers and producers struggle to compete as they have much higher costs just to maintain their licences.

Obviously piracy happens in the Western world too, but in professional circles much less so.

If anyone is just discussing hobbyist producers then this aspect isn't important. But in the world of professionals who has to compete against unfair competition it can be a real problem.
Without mentioning that a pirated copy in a professional world, is less prone to 'break' and even pro's that had a licenced copy, often switches to pirate one, because they just works better and faster. And that is particularly daunting where you are forced to grow your business within an Apple environment, constantly changing and demanding upgrades, or a sw that decides it will no longer support 32 bit XP.... guess what OS system most Eastern developers uses for engineering programs? Not Win 10.

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mjxl
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Post 02 May 2020

Wow, i never thought i would read this.

It's been a while that I've used Reason 5 once or twice, from some old warez cd's (crazybytes/twilight anyone?).
I haven't created a single piece of music yet, but still I feel like I did good buying Reason 10 (soon 11) and a buttload of RE's.

For me pirated software is like a 'more complete' version of a demo, there have been countless times where a cracked version lead me into buying the actual products.
Hell some of them I've bought multiple times, and even bought copies for friends..

Just a few weeks ago I've downloaded DOOM Eternal (they released the game without any DRM, so it was up on torrents super fast)
After finishing like 2 levels though, I already knew I had to give these people (id Software) my money, and so I did (bought Deluxe Edition @ 90 bucks).
When I started my playthrough a couple of friends were watching me, they went out and bought Eternal, some also bought DOOM 2016 to completely go through id Softwares reboot of the series.

On the flipside, i can't condone earning your income with cracked software (Like the examples of Avicii, Garrix etc)
Wasn't Kanye West also caught with a cracked Serum?
:reason: 11Suite + :re:
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platzangst
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Post 02 May 2020

orthodox wrote:
02 May 2020

I did not say it was not a crime. I mean it is a lighter crime than theft, because the consequences are not comparable.
Well, that's a matter of debate, isn't it? If, for example, a musician earns their living only through online sales of their albums, then it is essentially the same effect if someone doesn't pay them for the use of their music as if they literally grabbed a sandwich out of their hands. It's still theft. The fact that it may be petty theft (per instance) may make it a lesser crime than, say, grand theft auto, but lighter than theft itself? No. To put it another way, you wouldn't call it something other than theft if you sat down in a salon, got a haircut done, and then ran out the door when it was time to pay. "Why, they still have their scissors and combs! The consequences aren't comparable at all!"
orthodox wrote:
02 May 2020
And there definitely was no reason for calling it 'piracy'. Except maybe for PR effect, like adding more drama to a minor misconduct.
Well, everything is PR. In a way, you trying to advocate for a softer position is also PR. I don't think "piracy" is all that unsuitable a word. Granted, there's a lot of violence associated with real piracy, historic and modern, that doesn't apply. But by the same token, there's a romanticism to piracy in modern culture - just look at Johnny Depp's career - and the freewheeling ethos of those who think it's fine to just trawl around the Internet and take whatever one wants without regard to ownership, well, if that's not suggestive of piracy, what is? There's a reason one of the largest enablers of online piracy was once called The Pirate Bay. Now, Grandma downloading "Happy Birthday" from the Internet isn't really piracy, and prosecuting her as if it was is probably not worth it on many aspects. But that doesn't mean there haven't been people who have cost various creative industries a large sum of money by their actions, some even taking pride in it.
orthodox wrote:
02 May 2020
ps: what you describe is unrealistic, because the said company will inevitably get busted for that. I'm talking only about ordinary people who get away with it.
It's "unrealistic" because it's supposed to be an example of a kind of reasoning, taken to its extreme, to point out its faults. Even an advocate for online copyright infringement has to balk at saying it's okay for a record label to just take an artist's music and do whatever they want with it - well, if it's not okay for a record label, why is it okay for an individual? And there one starts to uncover the various rationalizations and excuses.

Propellerhands
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Post 02 May 2020

platzangst wrote:
02 May 2020
orthodox wrote:
01 May 2020
It is not a robbery though. The product does not get lost by the owner.
Propellerhands wrote:
01 May 2020
If I break Windows on my laptop, Bill Gates still has it.
I mean, by this kind of logic, if a record company pulls your music off of your Soundcloud or Bandcamp pages and sells it on Spotify, it isn't a crime, because you still have your music. No property or product was lost!
Exactly. Except that they would be impersonating me (aka fraud). For instance, if I download Bach music and put my name on it and upload on soundcloud as my own, that would be fraud.

Other than that, you are right and I totally would not care if someone started selling my music. More listeners for me, I guess. Many people who start making music make a big mistake by trying to sell it straight from their page.

P.S. I am very consistent with my views. However, now that I am older I appreciate the nice gesture of supporting the developers. Since they do the amazing job and very tiring and boring job to give us stuff that we can use with a simple press of a button.

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orthodox
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Post 02 May 2020

platzangst wrote:
02 May 2020
orthodox wrote:
02 May 2020

I did not say it was not a crime. I mean it is a lighter crime than theft, because the consequences are not comparable.
Well, that's a matter of debate, isn't it? If, for example, a musician earns their living only through online sales of their albums, then it is essentially the same effect if someone doesn't pay them for the use of their music as if they literally grabbed a sandwich out of their hands. It's still theft. The fact that it may be petty theft (per instance) may make it a lesser crime than, say, grand theft auto, but lighter than theft itself? No.
Why, they can still sell their music. My friend musicians often send me messages like: "Look, my latest release is already on that torrent tracker LOL", and attach a link.
As a business man, I see those not paying for the stuff I make just as an undeveloped market. I can't convert people by carrying "Ordnung muss sein" slogan, other ways would mean oppression, and I doubt it would be a better world. So I am not going to enforce what I think is right on them for expanding my business. I even doubt that it would be better for my business, because when the market is well organized, big corporations tend to win it.

mtbh
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Post 02 May 2020

Let's face it - Lars was right!


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Loque
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Post 02 May 2020

mtbh wrote:
02 May 2020
Let's face it - Lars was right!

Well...Napster and stuff showed one thing: The ppl wanted something different than buying CDs or vinyls and Napster delivered. Now we have streaming and the big names at Napster times missed the train. Now Apple and other make the BIG money.

So if ppl pirate, they want something, but there is a problem to get it.

Solve the problem, not that they the ppl get something.

PS: I remember the times where they started with stupid CD copyprotections made in impossible to play them on lots of old CD players...what a bunch of a.... Does this sound familar somehow?
:reason: 11, Win10 64Bit.

Propellerhands
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Joined: 11 Apr 2020

Post 02 May 2020

Didn't see that ad before, so hilarious. On the other hand, many people would not know what Metallica even is if not for Napster (and similar services). Especially here in Europe. That's literally cutting the branch they are sitting on.

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platzangst
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Post 02 May 2020

orthodox wrote:
02 May 2020
Why, they can still sell their music.
Sure they can - if anyone's left to buy after the freeloaders get what they want. But if I put my music on Bandcamp and set a price, then I am setting a value on my work and creativity, and offering the results of my work to anyone else in exchange for that price. Like a haircut. If someone scams someone out of a haircut, yes, the hairdresser can still sell more haircuts, but that does not mean the asshole who ditches out the door hasn't grabbed the value of that haircut for free, denying it to the person who did the work, and refusing to abide by the basic social construct of exchanging one commodity for another. Likewise, anyone pirating my music is denying me whatever value they think they get from having that music at their whim. It's still theft, they are still thieves, and I for one won't call it by anything softer.
orthodox wrote:
02 May 2020
My friend musicians often send me messages like: "Look, my latest release is already on that torrent tracker LOL", and attach a link.
As a business man, I see those not paying for the stuff I make just as an undeveloped market. I can't convert people by carrying "Ordnung muss sein" slogan, other ways would mean oppression, and I doubt it would be a better world. So I am not going to enforce what I think is right on them for expanding my business. I even doubt that it would be better for my business, because when the market is well organized, big corporations tend to win it.
Fair enough, but these things aren't mutually exclusive. I'm not about to pitch enough of a fit to take legal action if I found out someone was pirating my music (not that I think anyone ever would), and this is indeed the world we live in, where many people don't have a moral issue with certain kinds of theft as long as they can justify it to themselves in some way. There's little I can do that would change that, and I'm not about to require people to have a dongle to listen to my music. Still, I'm not going to pretend that anyone pirating my music is really a fan of my music or is doing me some kind of favor by passing it out without any compensation coming my way. And it's still theft. Someone stealing a candy bar from Wal-Mart is still a thief, even if nobody catches or punishes them.

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gullum
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Post 03 May 2020

Anyone IMHO that thinks pirating is ok, should try working for a year in a coffee shop and only get paid if the customer think it's fair.

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orthodox
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Post 03 May 2020

gullum wrote:
03 May 2020
Anyone IMHO that thinks pirating is ok, should try working for a year in a coffee shop and only get paid if the customer think it's fair.
I used to work in donationware, and I'm planning to do it again. It's not a coffee shop though...
You can think piracy is ok or not ok, but that does not change anything. It exists in the world like many other things we may not like, and it will always be there.

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gullum
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Post 03 May 2020

orthodox wrote:
03 May 2020
gullum wrote:
03 May 2020
Anyone IMHO that thinks pirating is ok, should try working for a year in a coffee shop and only get paid if the customer think it's fair.
I used to work in donationware, and I'm planning to do it again. It's not a coffee shop though...
You can think piracy is ok or not ok, but that does not change anything. It exists in the world like many other things we may not like, and it will always be there.
I am aware that many developers do it as a hobby and have other jobs on the too. There is a big différance from donation ware to paid software
What I mean by coffee shop is if that was your only income you would struggle to survive.

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selig
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Post 03 May 2020

Can I just step in and say something?
This thread is going to go on and on, back and forth, for a very long time. This is an old subject, and it always goes the same way.
Here's what I have observed, stating the obvious IMO: no one is going to change their mind. That's it. Doesn't matter what argument you make, those who think software theft is OK (for whatever reasons) will still think it's OK. Those who don't (for whatever reasons) will still think it's not OK.
We can keep doing this dance for 10, 20, 30, even 100 more pages and nothing is going to change.
So can I ask those who are going back and forth here to pause and consider their motives for posting on this subject? Because if you're hoping to make a point, you've probably already done that. And if you're hoping to change hearts and minds, you'll never do that.
So other than those options, what other motivation is there?

Carry on if you must, I'm not saying this has to end. I'm just asking to step back and take stock of what the end goal is here. And if there is none, then there MUST be other more useful and interesting subjects to share our opinions on in this forum, no?
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