Steve Wozniac on subscription models

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Jagwah
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Post 29 Feb 2020

Great interview, I found Steve's answer to the question at 1:10 most interesting where he states subscription models are about entrapping consumers.



Share any thoughts you have cheers.

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miscend
Posts: 1489
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Post 29 Feb 2020

Jagwah wrote:
29 Feb 2020
Great interview, I found Steve's answer to the question at 1:10 most interesting where he states subscription models are about entrapping consumers.



Share any thoughts you have cheers.
Bitwig and Pro Tools users should watch this!

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TheDragonborg
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Post 29 Feb 2020

Only sub I have is the $9 a month RE sub... it's worth it.

EdGrip
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Post 01 Mar 2020

I feel I should say that Bitwig isn't a subscription model. You buy the software, and it always works. If you want to upgrade to the latest version, 2 or 3 or 4 years down the line, you pay an upgrade fee.

Literally the only way that Bitwig differs from most other software in this regard, is that your upgrade fee buys you a set amount of time of free upgrades, not a version number of free upgrades. This means you don't have to wonder if there will be a major version number update in 6 months' time - you can upgrade whenever you feel like it. I used to be put off by it until I understood it better (and I don't own Bitwig), but I think it's at least equally as fair as the usual "pay per version number" system.

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TheDragonborg
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Post 01 Mar 2020

Though I did have the Adobe Creative Cloud sub for a year as I also do a lot of work with graphics and art... it was the worst decision I had ever made. The advertisement said something like "use it when you need it... cancel anytime" except it wasn't really... if you wanted to cancel you had to pay the rest of the year despite the fact that it was a subscription paid monthly... never doing that again. With the money I wasted on that I could have just bought Illustrator which was all I really wanted... now I just use a combo of GIMP and Corel Painter.

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bxbrkrz
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Post 01 Mar 2020

TheDragonborg wrote:
01 Mar 2020
Though I did have the Adobe Creative Cloud sub for a year as I also do a lot of work with graphics and art... it was the worst decision I had ever made. The advertisement said something like "use it when you need it... cancel anytime" except it wasn't really... if you wanted to cancel you had to pay the rest of the year despite the fact that it was a subscription paid monthly... never doing that again. With the money I wasted on that I could have just bought Illustrator which was all I really wanted... now I just use a combo of GIMP and Corel Painter.
https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/designer/
https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/photo/
:thumbs_up:

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TheDragonborg
Posts: 137
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Post 01 Mar 2020

bxbrkrz wrote:
01 Mar 2020
TheDragonborg wrote:
01 Mar 2020
Though I did have the Adobe Creative Cloud sub for a year as I also do a lot of work with graphics and art... it was the worst decision I had ever made. The advertisement said something like "use it when you need it... cancel anytime" except it wasn't really... if you wanted to cancel you had to pay the rest of the year despite the fact that it was a subscription paid monthly... never doing that again. With the money I wasted on that I could have just bought Illustrator which was all I really wanted... now I just use a combo of GIMP and Corel Painter.
https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/designer/
https://affinity.serif.com/en-us/photo/
:thumbs_up:
It's only $50? I'm gonna keep using GIMP and Corel Painter though... I have over a decade of experience with GIMP and I'm just so used to it.

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miscend
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Post 02 Mar 2020

EdGrip wrote:
01 Mar 2020
I feel I should say that Bitwig isn't a subscription model. You buy the software, and it always works. If you want to upgrade to the latest version, 2 or 3 or 4 years down the line, you pay an upgrade fee.

Literally the only way that Bitwig differs from most other software in this regard, is that your upgrade fee buys you a set amount of time of free upgrades, not a version number of free upgrades. This means you don't have to wonder if there will be a major version number update in 6 months' time - you can upgrade whenever you feel like it. I used to be put off by it until I understood it better (and I don't own Bitwig), but I think it's at least equally as fair as the usual "pay per version number" system.
Thanks for clearing that up. The way it was described at the time made it seem like a subscription model in disguise.

I guess it's closer to the Waves WUP. Where you pay an annual fixed amount if you want to continue to receive updates on products you already own.

EdGrip
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Post 02 Mar 2020

I know! I thought it sounded awful/like a subscription model at the time too. I think they communicated it REALLY badly, and still do tbh.

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bxbrkrz
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Post 02 Mar 2020

TheDragonborg wrote:
01 Mar 2020
It's only $50? I'm gonna keep using GIMP and Corel Painter though... I have over a decade of experience with GIMP and I'm just so used to it.
It's not about switching of course, but to know these options exist.
Gimp and Inkscape user myself.

EdGrip
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Joined: 03 Jun 2016

Post 02 Mar 2020

I bought Affinity Photo because, coming from cracked copies of Photoshop over the years, I found (and find) GIMP excruciatingly frustrating to use. I use Capture One for actual photography.

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reddust
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Post 04 Mar 2020

TheDragonborg wrote:
01 Mar 2020
Though I did have the Adobe Creative Cloud sub for a year as I also do a lot of work with graphics and art... it was the worst decision I had ever made. The advertisement said something like "use it when you need it... cancel anytime" except it wasn't really... if you wanted to cancel you had to pay the rest of the year despite the fact that it was a subscription paid monthly... never doing that again. With the money I wasted on that I could have just bought Illustrator which was all I really wanted... now I just use a combo of GIMP and Corel Painter.
I have an Adobe subscription and honestly, they say pretty clearly in their website if you're buying a one year subscription and paying it monthly or yearly or if you want to really buy a monthly subscription which is way more expensive. You are also talking about only photo and painting software here and they offer different models depending on what you need so you don't need to subscribe to the "all software included" option if you only need photoshop. I personally decided for the adobe subscription because I am not only using photoshop but also premiere and after effects as well as fresco and possibly indesing and illustrator too, and as I used the Black Friday deal to pay around $35 for the full creative cloud I think the price is well worth it.

Of course you can go with Gimp and Corel Painter or any other alternative, but I wanted to make clear that the Adobe website tells you what kind of subscription you are buying and if it's a yearly one payed monthly or a monthly one you can cancel at any time.

But back to the subject, I usually don't like subscription models either, only if I think they're justified and the price is reasonable and of course I wished subscription models were just one more option and not the only one option. That is something I don't like with the Adobe Creative Cloud, that you only have that now option to purchase their software so you never own it, you can't say "I'm ok with the current version I pay X amount for it and. no need to upgrade and keep paying because this version is already good enough for me", you pay and pay for a software you will never own and won't be able to use anymore if you don't keep paying for it.

I also think some companies offer reasonable prices but other ones go quite crazy with it, for example Autodesk wants you to pay around $250 a month for Maya or 3ds max, they don't care if you are a company that makes money with 3d modeling and rendering or just a hobbyist or someone who makes a little bit of extra income with computer graphics. That is really annoying and honestly, I think there are very good alternatives out there to these programs like Blender or Houdini.

I also think there are services that justify offering a subscription model like maybe Spotify, Apple Music, Netflix... where new contents are added regularly and prices are good enough for users to think if they want to go that way or rather buy music and movies separately instead of using a subscription service. But many other companies seem to think you can ask for a subscription model for any kind of app, like some mobile apps that just do. a little work on graphics or excel like apps to make tables and notices... I think that is really abusing.

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TheDragonborg
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Post 04 Mar 2020

reddust wrote:
04 Mar 2020
TheDragonborg wrote:
01 Mar 2020
Though I did have the Adobe Creative Cloud sub for a year as I also do a lot of work with graphics and art... it was the worst decision I had ever made. The advertisement said something like "use it when you need it... cancel anytime" except it wasn't really... if you wanted to cancel you had to pay the rest of the year despite the fact that it was a subscription paid monthly... never doing that again. With the money I wasted on that I could have just bought Illustrator which was all I really wanted... now I just use a combo of GIMP and Corel Painter.
I have an Adobe subscription and honestly, they say pretty clearly in their website if you're buying a one year subscription and paying it monthly or yearly or if you want to really buy a monthly subscription which is way more expensive. You are also talking about only photo and painting software here and they offer different models depending on what you need so you don't need to subscribe to the "all software included" option if you only need photoshop. I personally decided for the adobe subscription because I am not only using photoshop but also premiere and after effects as well as fresco and possibly indesing and illustrator too, and as I used the Black Friday deal to pay around $35 for the full creative cloud I think the price is well worth it.

Of course you can go with Gimp and Corel Painter or any other alternative, but I wanted to make clear that the Adobe website tells you what kind of subscription you are buying and if it's a yearly one payed monthly or a monthly one you can cancel at any time.

But back to the subject, I usually don't like subscription models either, only if I think they're justified and the price is reasonable and of course I wished subscription models were just one more option and not the only one option. That is something I don't like with the Adobe Creative Cloud, that you only have that now option to purchase their software so you never own it, you can't say "I'm ok with the current version I pay X amount for it and. no need to upgrade and keep paying because this version is already good enough for me", you pay and pay for a software you will never own and won't be able to use anymore if you don't keep paying for it.

I also think some companies offer reasonable prices but other ones go quite crazy with it, for example Autodesk wants you to pay around $250 a month for Maya or 3ds max, they don't care if you are a company that makes money with 3d modeling and rendering or just a hobbyist or someone who makes a little bit of extra income with computer graphics. That is really annoying and honestly, I think there are very good alternatives out there to these programs like Blender or Houdini.

I also think there are services that justify offering a subscription model like maybe Spotify, Apple Music, Netflix... where new contents are added regularly and prices are good enough for users to think if they want to go that way or rather buy music and movies separately instead of using a subscription service. But many other companies seem to think you can ask for a subscription model for any kind of app, like some mobile apps that just do. a little work on graphics or excel like apps to make tables and notices... I think that is really abusing.
Not in 2015 they didn't... it might be different now but back then it was not clear to me that it was yearly paid monthly... they really did advertise it as "use it when you need it" back then.

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reddust
Posts: 671
Joined: 07 May 2018

Post 04 Mar 2020

TheDragonborg wrote:
04 Mar 2020
Not in 2015 they didn't... it might be different now but back then it was not clear to me that it was yearly paid monthly... they really did advertise it as "use it when you need it" back then.
Wow, that's really a bad way to do things by Adobe, and I trust you, because I don't really like Adobe, I just find their software the easiest for me because I have been using it for years, and I don't trust most of the current companies selling tactics either, many of them barely hide their greediness when it comes to get money from customers. I can totally understand you don't want to use their services anymore...

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