Role of communication style

This forum is for anything not Reason related, if you just want to talk about other stuff. Please keep it friendly!
User avatar
orthodox
RE Developer
Posts: 2286
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Location: 55°09'24.5"N 37°27'41.4"E

07 Jan 2020

There's a common notion of the benefit of positive expressions like gratitude, praise and such. They are often seen as an essential oil required for the gears of society to work smoothly. Like otherwise the cogs would squeak and crumble, and people might break down or go berserk. And that is true indeed to some extent.

I come from a culture where outward expressions are scarce and not a big deal. If I meet someone with a smile on my face, people will rather think that I must have just been told a joke that I'm still recovering from, or worse, that I'm lowering their guard while planning some fraud on them. Yet the society does well in the cold environment.

I'm not trying to say that either behavior is better or worse than the other. Any established protocol is in a way a coercion on people's natural way of expression, because people are diverse and they may have various thoughts on how things should be. Some are open, some are restrained, some may even believe that they should direct their thanksgiving to god instead so that he distributes the grace properly.

I know I can meet anyone on this forum, and if I'm concerned about things like constructiveness, that is the thing i must target specifically, regardless of who I may be dealing with and other obstacles. I don't think I would gain from going deep into people's attitude or the mechanics of communication. Anyone can get a help on this forum. There's a place for everyone in this world, peacemakers, warriors, jokers. Even for complete assholes like me, though I'm not going to advocate that style.

I wanted to raise this topic without getting into a controversy in the other thread, which I consider a manifest of really good intentions that may influence people, even though I have doubts about that.

User avatar
raymondh
Posts: 1776
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

07 Jan 2020

Communication is difficult.

It is much more than non-verbal communication (body language etc), it is about the 'filters' that we all have when we're communicating, and the filters the recipient has when they are 'receiving'. There are layers and layers of stuff that change the way people receive what you thought you were sending.

That's way beyond cultural differences and neurodiversity.

When someone takes offense at something you said, and you are scratching your head as to why, it might be because they might be having a bad day, or it might be that what you said triggered a response that has been ingrained in them since a bad experience as a child.

It's my view that people will also CHOOSE to have a certain reaction based on what they think of the sender. e.g. if someone you don't like says something to you, you will more likely be dismissive, cynical or otherwise look for the flaw in their communication. If you really like or respect that person, you will look for the gold and wisdom in their words.

The best we can all do is be clear in our intentions (as you say), try to deliver the message in the way we think the audience will be most receptive too, and then iterate based on the response/feedback. If we are the recipient the best we can do is to 'seek understanding' and try to understand what the sender meant to say, rather than what they actually said.

It's also helpful to learn up on cultural differences. Generalizations but enormously valuable, if only to help us understand that other people do not process information in the way we do (or the way we think we do).

User avatar
guitfnky
Posts: 4408
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

07 Jan 2020

the cultural thing is super important. so is the individual, and how they generally respond to what’s being communicated.

a good rule of thumb is, unless someone is actively being a jerk, don’t assume they’re a jerk. 😅
I write good music for good people

https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 3811
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

07 Jan 2020

We 'evolved' to perfect non verbal tools across continents and cultures throughout the ages and here we are, trying to understand why it does not work on a online forum. The tools even work across species.

757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

User avatar
guitfnky
Posts: 4408
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

07 Jan 2020

yes, but non-verbal cues are not all universal. some are, but you can’t dismiss cultural and personal considerations.
I write good music for good people

https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/

User avatar
orthodox
RE Developer
Posts: 2286
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Location: 55°09'24.5"N 37°27'41.4"E

07 Jan 2020

What culture or considerations can bears have?

It seems impossible to anticipate what strings I may touch in a discussion, so I give up on that. Instead, I try to focus on propositions and counter arguments alone in hope that no person is currently attached to them. There's a chance someone gets hurt. After all, this is a construction area if we're after a constructive discussion. If I avoid all the conceivable clashes or succumb to my own injuries, the discussion won't go anywhere.
We go in the dark.

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 3811
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

07 Jan 2020

Bears use their instinct, but modify their behavior long enough to get food from humans. Humans decode and understand their new behavior. We modify ours, mainly fear, just long enough to feed them (in the video).
Although it is fun to watch (they look fantastic, especially the species I see here) what we are seeing is a real complex type of communication, between humans and bears. We don't even think of it as complex.
It is not just about different cultures, but visual, physical communications between us, the way we use those tools, as soon as we are born.
Using a forum is not the best tool, and we default to be suspicious of the other even more because all we have are pixels on a web page. We become mind readers and too often very, very bad at it. We don't have the tools.

Your avatar seems to be a bear playing a balalaika (?). That's why I used that particular video. What you wrote wasn't my first inspiration for the bear video.
Sorry for that confusion and, wait for it, miscommunication.
:puf_smile:
757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

User avatar
orthodox
RE Developer
Posts: 2286
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Location: 55°09'24.5"N 37°27'41.4"E

08 Jan 2020

Well, your avatar also suggested that you could come up with something like that.

Bears generally won't attack people. The key in those videos is to gather a large enough group of people, so a bear thinks twice before attacking. Cars and bulldozers also help, because they are big and sometimes move and make noise.

I don't think that's a sort of communication at all. There may be a communication between us when we're discussing the video or our avatars unless they got stuck to our heads. That may be the case when we move on to interfacing the net with deep immersion VR headsets with a mind reading feature. Until that, we can only enjoy the scene from the outside.


User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 3811
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

08 Jan 2020

"We can only enjoy the scene from the outside."

I agree.
Is it a balalaika?

757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

User avatar
orthodox
RE Developer
Posts: 2286
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Location: 55°09'24.5"N 37°27'41.4"E

08 Jan 2020

I take it you're specifically obsessed with that balalaika thing. Well, that's what it looks like:


User avatar
reddust
Posts: 677
Joined: 07 May 2018

08 Jan 2020

Very interesting reflexion. In my opinion it is always difficult to communicate in forums because of a lot of missing information that gets lost when people cannot see each other faces or listen the tone in which words are spoken out... but also expectations play a big role on this.

When we say something or listen to something someone else says we tend to expect things, like a concrete reaction or speech, when that conversation doesn't match our expectations is actually when things can start getting interesting. You just need to see when people agree in a conversation or a forum thread, that conversation tends to finish because al parts agree and there is like nothing more to say - I am talking about communication in this terms, when people agree in a creative process of course things keep going on or should go on based on that agreement.

But it is when people don't completely agree or see things different in some way when a conversation can take a more intense direction, sometimes in a positive way other times negative or often even neutral because some things are so complicated that we start having a discussion with arguments that sound like opposites but might be they don't cancel each other and coexist without a problem and still we keep talking about them as if we just wanted to be the ones that are right about a concrete theme or similar. Communication is difficult but sometimes that difficulty is what makes it the more interesting, at least in my opinion :)

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 3811
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

08 Jan 2020

This why A.I. will always fail: it does not get dry humor, sarcasm, or the brand new invented concept of the balalaika inception.
Don't forget the theme of the thread: the role of communication style. Since it cannot truly be defined we can only only see it evolve like a living organism. The question is: are we part of the experiment, are we this organism, or are we the observers?
757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

User avatar
orthodox
RE Developer
Posts: 2286
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Location: 55°09'24.5"N 37°27'41.4"E

08 Jan 2020

I think, a conversation is not a living organism. It's alive to the extent we put our lives into it, focusing on the style or the matter or the tone. These are all words in the larger sense. We are not living in the words we said, still we do put something ours in them that's reflected in our memories. That's what binds us to our words, and that's why we're not only observers.

As for the experiment part, I don't know what it is about, but since we're discussing different styles here, it can be a kind of playground.

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 3811
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

08 Jan 2020

This thread is a playground.
A bit of 'context'.
757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

User avatar
orthodox
RE Developer
Posts: 2286
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Location: 55°09'24.5"N 37°27'41.4"E

09 Jan 2020

I don't believe in memetics. To me, it's a simplification of the existing cultural studies for the sake of introducing a universal concept. It does not even study the culture. It just picks what fits the doctrine and discards the rest. It leads to no valuable conclusions except for philosophical ones.

I'm also especially concerned about one thing they tried to bring over from the evolution theory, it's natural selection and competition ('struggle for life' as Darwin put it). They totally removed us humans, who are in fact the main subject of selection and construction of new cultural entities. I think, we are the force that drives the culture, not some objectified nature. This way, it would resemble the intelligent design theory, but while that factor cannot be found there in biology, it is obvious in the culture. People are building their outlook, perfecting the construction elements they use.

In a troll land, there may be a struggle between 'memes', because they treat concepts as weapons. A good meme there is analogous to a mine capable of destroying several levels of a building or covering maximal area with shit. That universal 'meme' concept is actually closer to their, troll's narrow view.

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 3811
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

09 Jan 2020

Image

A meme (/miːm/ MEEM) is an idea, behavior, or style that spreads from person to person within a culture—often with the aim of conveying a particular phenomenon, theme, or meaning represented by the meme. A meme acts as a unit for carrying cultural ideas, symbols, or practices, that can be transmitted from one mind to another through writing, speech, gestures, rituals, or other imitable phenomena with a mimicked theme. Supporters of the concept regard memes as cultural analogues to genes in that they self-replicate, mutate, and respond to selective pressures.

Flags are ways of communicating, with style. Just like us in this thread, but better.
757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

User avatar
orthodox
RE Developer
Posts: 2286
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Location: 55°09'24.5"N 37°27'41.4"E

09 Jan 2020

That thing is called a sign in semiotics. Unlike memetics, which focuses just on the persistence of elements, semiotics studies the actual role they play in the communication process.

User avatar
demt
Posts: 1357
Joined: 16 Sep 2016
Contact:

09 Jan 2020

Quick Reply esperanto
Reason 12 ,gear4 music sdp3 stage piano .nektar gxp 88,behringer umc1800 .line6 spider4 30
hear scince reason 2.5

User avatar
orthodox
RE Developer
Posts: 2286
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Location: 55°09'24.5"N 37°27'41.4"E

09 Jan 2020

Well, what's there else to say.

The thread is fading.

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 3811
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

09 Jan 2020

Fading in or fading out? This thread has a bit of crossfading life into it.

Image

Role of communication style.
757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

User avatar
Benedict
Competition Winner
Posts: 2747
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Gold Coast, Australia
Contact:

09 Jan 2020

orthodox wrote:
09 Jan 2020
In a troll land, there may be a struggle between 'memes', because they treat concepts as weapons. A good meme there is analogous to a mine capable of destroying several levels of a building or covering maximal area with shit. That universal 'meme' concept is actually closer to their, troll's narrow view.
I love it LOL

:-)
Benedict Roff-Marsh
Completely burned and gone

User avatar
orthodox
RE Developer
Posts: 2286
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Location: 55°09'24.5"N 37°27'41.4"E

09 Jan 2020

Fading apart.

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 3811
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

09 Jan 2020

You've made somebody laugh. And that somebody wasn't too happy a few days ago. And that made me sad.
Maybe you had no plans of making anyone smile. Hard to believe. What you wrote was funny.
In the end: "I love it LOL :) "

An intelligently designed thread.
757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

User avatar
orthodox
RE Developer
Posts: 2286
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Location: 55°09'24.5"N 37°27'41.4"E

11 Jan 2020

Looking back, I should point out that it was the second post by raymondh that determined all the directions the thread later followed.

Proboscis
Posts: 1004
Joined: 28 Aug 2019

11 Jan 2020

reddust wrote:
08 Jan 2020
Very interesting reflexion. In my opinion it is always difficult to communicate in forums because of a lot of missing information that gets lost when people cannot see each other faces or listen the tone in which words are spoken out... but also expectations play a big role on this.
This is true of forums. In my daily life, expletives are openly exchanged as an expression of positivism, but to do so on a forum would surely confuse someone unacquainted with the cultural norms.

For example, if I were to respond to someones post with simply "You motherfucker" I'm sure I would not be too popular. Yet if we were playing snooker, and I sank a difficult shot, maybe even the winning shot, and you exclaimed "You motherfucker", it becomes nothing more than a crude way of saying "my my dear sir, you achieved a masterful shot". There are similar jovial crudities used in many languages that are contextual to the situation they are used in.

The issue I see on forums is when I read people that are so oversensitive, in a way that's problematic to their own wellbeing, that they take the words of others as something they are not, to make an almighty big deal over quite literally nothing (that is over words written with zero ill intent), so much so that everyone is expected to curb their expression. A psychic censorship of the many to accommodate the few. But pandering to someone's insecurities is not keeping the peace, nor is apologizing if ones' intentions were in no way shape or form intended as they were interpreted.

There was I time when I would argue and rally against such people, but these days I try my best to refrain from any long ongoing spats. If I've stated my response once or twice, that's it, I'm done. They can have the last word, if they're seeking some sort of validation. In almost every case it comes down to unrestrained ego. I also try and exercise compassion and empathy for their situation. I ask myself 'what's making them so offended at inoffensive intentions?" or simply acknowledge to myself that they are suffering in some way in their everyday life that goes beyond the reactions they make public.

I'm the first to admit that it doesn't always pan out that way, and it's a daily practice to become more skillful at navigating life. Often I sit here reading posts thinking 'what a dickhead', but by doing so, I am taking on their suffering and making it my own. But why should I suffer because of someone else's suffering, especially a complete stranger? Negativity is contagious, and if I try to bring myself mindfully to a level of conscious loving kindness ( within myself, not publicly) then I'm better for it. And by choosing not to respond, I'm no longer contributing to the continued suffering of that other person.

All I can suggest to anyone is this: When you start to feel anger, or offence, or insult, hold off on responding. Sit with your first immediate emotion for five minutes in a quite space. Unpack it, ask yourself if you really know the intention of the other person. Then ask yourself if you have anything to gain by feeling the way you do. Create a scenario of how your response is going to pan out in the next hour, day, week. Determine how significant/insignificant your reactions are, and how it will impact your own mood, and also affect the mood of another person. In most cases, you will find that these feelings dissolve into nothingness, and you can move on without carrying the negative emotions that well up inside of you.

Or, you can just tell the person to fuck off, either directly, or wrapped up in a hundred words that you think make you look clever, and end up spending more spiritual energy on remaining in a dark emotional space. That's up to you. And your precious ego.



*note: I use the term 'you' in a general sense, not at all in speaking to, or about, the member I quoted)

Post Reply
  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests