Artist Exposure & Gender Equality

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Proboscis
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13 Dec 2019

Over the decades of being around local scenes, I occasionally hear the claim that 'women are under-represented' in music, whether it be live bands in the support slots, less airtime on radio and overall a view that female musicians are treated as 'lesser' by the industry. I've particularly heard this around rock music.

Note that I'm excluding singers here - and speaking of instrument players, electronic artists, producers, composers etc.

So it has me wondering... is the goal for an all inclusive approach a valid one ? To have radio stations play 50%male/50% female acts ? On the surface, the liberal minded person might say 'yes, absolutely'.

Since pondering over this for a lot of 2019, my view has changed a little, and I would say 'no, probably not'.

Now, before you all come at me with pitchforks, consider this:

How many women are on this forum, percentage wise ?
How many women are on music-making forums in general?
What percentage of women shop as Guitar Centre and other stores (excluding people buying instruments as gifts)?
What percentage of women shop at electronic music stores ?
In society as a whole, how many women are musicians, compared to men ?

Let's say the ratio for all the above turns out to be 30/70 to women vs men (this is by no means to be read as any suggestion of fact, I'm just putting numbers out there)

Shouldn't then the more 'equality friendly' radio stations stick to the same ratio for airplay.

And if they decide to go 50/50 as a reflection of the overall gender ratio in the world of 50/50 (actually 48/52 but lets keep it rounded as even), then these radio stations are themselves actually engaging in gender inequality and bias, by flavoring a larger percentage of female musicians. Isn't this exercising the very thing that they claim to be against ?

Or to put it another way. In a city of people, there are 100 male plumbers, and 30 female plumbers. All of them have chosen their profession based on their own feelings towards a career future. Now the City Hall politicians have job opportunities for 10 plumbers to join the team. However City Hall also have a progressive charter to follow, that they are a gender-equal-opportunity employer, so they employ 5 men and 5 women. Seems a bit odd doesn't it ? Are all ten the best plumbers with the right attitude the City is looking for ? From the available talent pool, the City has employed 17% of all available female plumbers from the talent pool. Yet they have employed only 5% from the male talent pool. When these figures are viewed as a percentage, there is clearly a gender inequality issue, and that inequality is towards men.

So what of musicians, then ? Should female musicians be given 50/50 equal commercial attention in each of the many categories (guitarists, drummers, synth players, producers etc) if there isn't a 50/50 spread of musicians in society as a whole ?

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Benedict
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13 Dec 2019

Mama we're all trannies now :crazy:

I agree with your point. I think that the reality is that there are fewer women in Popular Music overall, outside of being the singer, simply because women aren't as interested. No reason they should be. No reason they should not be. Simply is.

I would say we are all totally done for the moment that we mandate what gets paid based on social engineering criteria more than merit. Imagine a situation where Elton John rolls up with a new song as great as "Candle In The Wind" and it is "banned" because he has a johnson and we are forced to buy Trailer Swift's "New One-Note Song" because she is a perch. That would be the very essence of sexism - no matter how the Socialists rant.

If I were a boy, I'd be seeing the grass greener on the other side of the gender.

:-)
Benedict Roff-Marsh
Completely burned and gone

Proboscis
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13 Dec 2019

Benedict wrote:
13 Dec 2019
If I were a boy, I'd be seeing the grass greener on the other side of the gender.
That's a whole other 'can of worms' that I considered when posting - and adding a poll to ask "are you: Male, Female, other" then decided it's too complicated so stuck with the 'boys and girls' (or identifying as either of those two).

I note in your profile you are an Australian. Perfect case in point - radio station is JJJ

[for the benefit of people who have never lived in Australia, JJJ is a nationally broadcast, government funded (while being free to criticize government, which they do) FM radio station that has always been the 'cool, alternative, progressive' station. Not so much anymore, they play Billie Eilish to death. And they have an annual listener poll on the "Best 100 Songs of the Year" that was once so big that the songs even came out on a multi CD format, before the format died. A lot of listeners congregate for a day-party with barbeque, beers and such - the radio station broadcasts every single song, in order from 100 to 1. JJJ is widely known to be 'left leaning', in spite of successive conservative governments that fund the station. It is the perfect example of an 'all-inclusive-equally' charter'. I seem to think that they even have more female presenters/DJ's than men]

Here is the first few lines of their summary of 2018's 'top 100' from their own website.

+
JJJ_100.png
JJJ_100.png (54.68 KiB) Viewed 1357 times

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Timmy Crowne
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14 Dec 2019

Those who advocate diversity quotas don’t actually want distributions that take into account real demographic proportions or individual interests and preferences. They want the destruction or transfer of power from groups they consider oppressors to groups they consider oppressed. Any actual inequality created as a result of such social engineering is viewed as acceptable because of the context of historical injustice.

SJW:
“Our ancestors thought 2 plus 2 equaled 3. Today we all should answer 5 to balance things out.”

Normie:
“But it’s 4.”

SJW:
“4 isn’t enough anymore. #itstimefor5”

When these ideas are applied in any domain, they compromise the integrity of the value system in that domain. To the extent that society values or devalues a piece of work because of the demographic identity of the person that created it, all other works in that domain become meaningless tokens to be used for brutal power games. So identity politics in music is great for the person who wants to destroy music.

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aeox
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14 Dec 2019

Timmy Crowne wrote:
14 Dec 2019
Those who advocate diversity quotas don’t actually want distributions that take into account real demographic proportions or individual interests and preferences. They want the destruction or transfer of power from groups they consider oppressors to groups they consider oppressed. Any actual inequality created as a result of such social engineering is viewed as acceptable because of the context of historical injustice.

SJW:
“Our ancestors thought 2 plus 2 equaled 3. Today we all should answer 5 to balance things out.”

Normie:
“But it’s 4.”

SJW:
“4 isn’t enough anymore. #itstimefor5”

When these ideas are applied in any domain, they compromise the integrity of the value system in that domain. To the extent that society values or devalues a piece of work because of the demographic identity of the person that created it, all other works in that domain become meaningless tokens to be used for brutal power games. So identity politics in music is great for the person who wants to destroy music.


👌

TrevaRanks
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14 Dec 2019

Interesting that SJW is being pitched vs 'normie', as if to suggest that somebody who advocates gender equality isn't normal. Don't take that as a dig, it's just an interesting choice of word.

I'm not saying quotas is or isn't the answer. The question that we should probably be asking is why there's such an imbalance and why they're apparently simply 'not as interested', which is a massive assumption in itself.

It would probably be a good idea to ask women why that's the case rather than us men answering for them. You'll probably find the root cause is the same reason women are under-represented in many other fields.

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joeyluck
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14 Dec 2019

This topic overlooks the huge, root of the problem for this industry and the ones you reference in example. You're already jumping to 'Do we enforce equal representation to balance for an underrepresented group?' before you figure out how not to push away and discourage that group from entering the industry in the first place. But yes, underrepresentation is a problem, and better representation and removal of barriers, social stigmas, and stereotypes is a start.

Proboscis
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14 Dec 2019

I don't care for the term 'SJW' used a derogatory term. 'Social Justice' is something we should all be striving for.

But 'social justice' should not be interpreted as 'let's have equal representation of women in every field', because there ARE significant differences between genders, both psychologically & physiologically. This is what drives a person to follow a given path, whether it be a career, an art or a sport.

Does 'asking women' why there are less female musicians lead us to any viable answers ? How about asking men why there is such a large gender imbalance in the field of teaching (in American elementary schools, a mere 11% of all teachers are men). And according to US Census data, only 9% of all nursing staff in the healthcare system are men. As a man, I could not answer the question of why this is so, just as much as I believe that asking women why there are fewer female musicians cannot be answered.

Where are the conversations around nursing & teaching, when the overwhelming imbalance is statistically against men ? Are these industries being discriminatory? The truth is quite simple. More women are attracted to these professions than are men. So why can't this be applied to commercial exposure of women in music ? If there are less women picking up an instrument (post-school) then it stands to reason that there will (or should be) less women on the radio and on the live stage.

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orthodox
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14 Dec 2019

Just remove the gender, race and other obstacles in all fields (if there really are any left), and let Allah sort the things out. As for those trying to impose their ideas on social equality, they're just ideological parasites. All their ideas are out of their asses, whether they demand equal representation or convert the eye-for-an-eye principle for collective punishment.

Proboscis
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14 Dec 2019

joeyluck wrote:
14 Dec 2019
This topic overlooks the huge, root of the problem for this industry and the ones you reference in example. You're already jumping to 'Do we enforce equal representation to balance for an underrepresented group?' before you figure out how not to push away and discourage that group from entering the industry in the first place. But yes, underrepresentation is a problem, and better representation and removal of barriers and social stigmas is a start.
I don't think we should be selectively encouraging one gender to be doing something over another gender. Why should my daughter receive any more encouragement to become an artist, but not my son, simply to pump up the numbers. It is our gender that dictates our choices in life, and there will never, ever be anything close to 50/50 equality in all professions or hobbies. How many female car mechanics have you encountered, or garbage collectors ? Where is the push to bring equality to those jobs ?

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joeyluck
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14 Dec 2019

Proboscis wrote:
14 Dec 2019
I don't care for the term 'SJW' used a derogatory term. 'Social Justice' is something we should all be striving for.

But 'social justice' should not be interpreted as 'let's have equal representation of women in every field', because there ARE significant differences between genders, both psychologically & physiologically. This is what drives a person to follow a given path, whether it be a career, an art or a sport.

Does 'asking women' why there are less female musicians lead us to any viable answers ? How about asking men why there is such a large gender imbalance in the field of teaching (in American elementary schools, a mere 11% of all teachers are men). And according to US Census data, only 9% of all nursing staff in the healthcare system are men. As a man, I could not answer the question of why this is so, just as much as I believe that asking women why there are fewer female musicians cannot be answered.

Where are the conversations around nursing & teaching, when the overwhelming imbalance is statistically against men ? Are these industries being discriminatory? The truth is quite simple. More women are attracted to these professions than are men. So why can't this be applied to commercial exposure of women in music ? If there are less women picking up an instrument (post-school) then it stands to reason that there will (or should be) less women on the radio and on the live stage.
As I mentioned above, one of the answers to your questions is social stigmas and stereotypes. It's pressure and expectations of society that is a problem.

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orthodox
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14 Dec 2019

joeyluck wrote:
14 Dec 2019
As I mentioned above, one of the answers to your questions is social stigmas. It's pressure and expectations of society that is a problem.
Who will judge whether there is some social stigma or it's the fulfillment of common sense? One should think twice before using a scalpel on the live society organism. The better solution would be to just wait for the artificial things to dissolve by themselves than to risk causing a damage. We're not dying yet to rush saving us, are we?

TrevaRanks
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14 Dec 2019

There are some physiological differences between the sexes, but not natural psychological differences. The only psychological differences are due to how we as a society treat women and our expectations of what roles they should fulfill and how we've conditioned them. Don't confuse sex with gender; gender is about what we define as somebody's role in society. There's nothing different about a woman's brain that says they should like pink stuff or be more inclined to be a nurse, we've steered them towards that way of thinking through centuries of psychological conditioning. Gender is a social construct.

The reality is that historically, and unfortunately still today, your son would have been encouraged to pursue arts, sciences etc more than your daughter and that's why there's such an imbalance. A woman is just as capable of being a mechanic but ask any female mechanic about the attitudes she encounters and you'll soon realise why they're so few and far between.

Keeping the topic to electronic music, this article sheds some light on the experiences of women in electronic music:

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/feminis ... onic-music

Proboscis
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14 Dec 2019

joeyluck wrote:
14 Dec 2019
As I mentioned above, one of the answers to your questions is social stigmas and stereotypes. It's pressure and expectations of society that is a problem.
Sorry, but I don't believe there *is* any social stigma that deters women from being musicians. That is the crux of this whole thread, really. To suggest that there is such a societal occurrence ends up actually being a self-fulfilling prophesy (ie; if enough people claim there is, then soon enough it becomes an erroneous public perception that it happens, and directly impacts the subset of society with falsehoods)

DougalDarkly
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14 Dec 2019

This thread has kind of stumbled into wider-society issues surrounding changing gender roles - and I seriously doubt that a bunch of guys on a Reason forum are going to figure it out...

Some of you seem rather insecure or fearful about this stuff - "THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!" - so, just to stoke the flames of this nonsense, here's a reminder that it's an equal OPPORTUNITY that's being strived for here - the quotas thing must be an American obsession?

Plus, those in a position to change what they think is wrong will do everything in their power to make it right, whether you like it or not:

http://www.didrec.com/demos/
NEW DEMO POLICY
In order to balance the obvious we have adopted a new demo policy effective 01.01.2018:

FEMALE (or identifies as) PRODUCERS ONLY
When you run your own label you can, of course, make sure that only white males will be signed (to redress the 'imbalance' you perceive) - but likely in a less overt way (like always).

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orthodox
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14 Dec 2019

TrevaRanks wrote:
14 Dec 2019
There's nothing different about a woman's brain that says they should like pink stuff or be more inclined to be a nurse, we've steered them towards that way of thinking through centuries of psychological conditioning. Gender is a social construct.
Actually, there is something different, because sex hormones affect human psychology. There are also objective (irrevocable) aspects of psychological conditioning, like between people living in highlands and valleys.

TrevaRanks
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14 Dec 2019

orthodox wrote:
14 Dec 2019
TrevaRanks wrote:
14 Dec 2019
There's nothing different about a woman's brain that says they should like pink stuff or be more inclined to be a nurse, we've steered them towards that way of thinking through centuries of psychological conditioning. Gender is a social construct.
Actually, there is something different, because sex hormones affect human psychology. There are also objective (irrevocable) aspects of psychological conditioning, like between people living in highlands and valleys.
Nitpicking. Hardly gonna stop them picking up a drum machine or fixing a leaky tap

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orthodox
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14 Dec 2019

TrevaRanks wrote:
14 Dec 2019
Nitpicking. Hardly gonna stop them picking up a drum machine or fixing a leaky tap
Nothing stops me from needlework, I just can't keep my attention in monotonous process.

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guitfnky
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14 Dec 2019

Proboscis wrote:
14 Dec 2019
joeyluck wrote:
14 Dec 2019
As I mentioned above, one of the answers to your questions is social stigmas and stereotypes. It's pressure and expectations of society that is a problem.
Sorry, but I don't believe there *is* any social stigma that deters women from being musicians. That is the crux of this whole thread, really. To suggest that there is such a societal occurrence ends up actually being a self-fulfilling prophesy (ie; if enough people claim there is, then soon enough it becomes an erroneous public perception that it happens, and directly impacts the subset of society with falsehoods)
except you do believe it’s true. you wrote this in your first post:
I occasionally hear the claim that 'women are under-represented' in music, whether it be live bands in the support slots, less airtime on radio and overall a view that female musicians are treated as 'lesser' by the industry. I've particularly heard this around rock music.
you may not believe it’s true, but the fact is, many people do believe it. and if a young woman thinking about getting into music hears someone they love or trust say something dismissive about women in music, well, there you go...

and you’re absolutely right about there being some element of self-fulfilling prophecy here. of course there is—that’s how society works. that’s how ALL stereotypes operate, too often ultimately becoming built-in social control.
I write good music for good people

https://slowrobot.bandcamp.com/

TrevaRanks
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14 Dec 2019

orthodox wrote:
14 Dec 2019
TrevaRanks wrote:
14 Dec 2019
Nitpicking. Hardly gonna stop them picking up a drum machine or fixing a leaky tap
Nothing stops me from needlework, I just can't keep my attention in monotonous process.
Tell a load of men you do needlework though and you'll soon see some gender stereotypes come into play. Same with male nurses; speak to some of them and I guarantee they'll have no end of stories about being judged for doing a 'woman's job'

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jam-s
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14 Dec 2019

TrevaRanks wrote:
14 Dec 2019
There are some physiological differences between the sexes, but not natural psychological differences.
Sorry, but that's just wrong. Males, females and trans people have very different brains/bodies due to different hormone levels. So the phsiological/biological differences also imply psychological ones. There are some strong known and understood relations of how the (sexual) hormones directly influence behaviour like e.g. agressiveness.
Humans are a sexually dimorph species even if some people wish we were not.

TrevaRanks
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14 Dec 2019

There are differences between me and the person standing next to me, man or woman, but not to the extent that they're going to make men any more pre disposed to making electronic music than women. You're right, there are some small differences at birth and hormones do play a role, but in broader sense our brains are pretty much the same, the differences are very small and it's the way we're nurtured and the reinforcement of stereotypes that makes the difference to how we turn out

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bxbrkrz
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14 Dec 2019

Talent + Perseverance + Luck + Connection + Capitalism = Success
A beautiful thread. Let's hope it'll stay unlocked.

Kate Bush 4 Ever!
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orthodox
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14 Dec 2019

TrevaRanks wrote:
14 Dec 2019
There are differences between me and the person standing next to me, man or woman, but not to the extent that they're going to make men any more pre disposed to making electronic music than women. You're right, there are some small differences at birth and hormones do play a role, but in broader sense our brains are pretty much the same, the differences are very small and it's the way we're nurtured and the reinforcement of stereotypes that makes the difference to how we turn out
That's an interesting theory, but I don't see any arguments to it. You can't prove that the stereotypes are the problem other way than by recreating the humanity from the ground. Yes, there are stereotypes, but they are there for a reason. Sometimes, they are just oversimplification of the real things. They help us to build our worldview and keep our mind together.
What is your recipe against those stereotypes? Fining for them? Substituting them with your own speculative stereotype about universal equality? Will it be better for humanity and is it going to even survive with that?
And what are you going to do about animals? They must be reinforcing their stereotypes, too. The other day I read about a penguin somewhere in London who realized its gender neutrality.

I too would like to see more women in this forum, but I understand that this is a utopia. That's just how things are. Otherwise, they would be already there.

TrevaRanks
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14 Dec 2019

orthodox wrote:
14 Dec 2019
TrevaRanks wrote:
14 Dec 2019
There are differences between me and the person standing next to me, man or woman, but not to the extent that they're going to make men any more pre disposed to making electronic music than women. You're right, there are some small differences at birth and hormones do play a role, but in broader sense our brains are pretty much the same, the differences are very small and it's the way we're nurtured and the reinforcement of stereotypes that makes the difference to how we turn out
That's an interesting theory, but I don't see any arguments to it. You can't prove that the stereotypes are the problem other way than by recreating the humanity from the ground. Yes, there are stereotypes, but they are there for a reason. Sometimes, they are just oversimplification of the real things. They help us to build our worldview and keep our mind together.
What is your recipe against those stereotypes? Fining for them? Substituting them with your own speculative stereotype about universal equality? Will it be better for humanity and is it going to even survive with that?
And what are you going to do about animals? They must be reinforcing their stereotypes, too. The other day I read about a penguin somewhere in London who realized its gender neutrality.

I too would like to see more women in this forum, but I understand that this is a utopia. That's just how things are. Otherwise, they would be already there.
We'll agree to disagree. If you want to hear the arguments, I would have a look at the research done by the neuroscientist Lise Eliot, she's published a book on it. She's a female though obviously, so take it with a pinch of salt if you like ;)

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