[Shell rant] So I "Kompleted" my setup...

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ShelLuser
Posts: 203
Joined: 25 Aug 2019

Post 11 Oct 2019

Hi gang,

This is a somewhat offtopic rant and the only two reasons I placed it here is because I appreciate this forum and its community very much. I actually learned a thing or two just by reading about opinions and techniques and then following up on them (= investigating, experimenting and learning for myself). The second reason... I kind of feel forced into the direction I took today, and the drive was Reason Studios.

Last week I've been doing a lot of experimentation with my Reason 10 "expanded" setup (read: Reason 10 plus a ton of Rack extensions which I grabbed after upgrading from 6 to 10). I plain out love the Reason workflow and how it seriously manages to expand my Live setup and workflow. Playing Kong on my Push controller (= Ableton midi controller) through Live using ReWire is plain out awesome. Not to mention Europa & Complex-1. Especially if you position both DAW's at the front of your Windows 10 taskbar; this will allow you to switch between them using Win-1 and Win-2 (press the Windows key and then 1 or 2). So easy and so quick!

But as we all know Reason 11 has ditched ReWire in favor of the Rack VST. A VST I've played a lot with last week but I ended up officially disappointed, thus I removed it from my system. It does not weigh up against all the stuff you can do when you got Reason set up as a rewire slave.

Let's talk audio channels... with ReWire I can have a dozen output channels and set them up individually in Live. With the VST Live detects several outgoing channels but can only use the main channel (with special thanks to occide for discovering and reporting this). Maybe it's a bug, maybe its by design, but it's frustrating if you want to mix using Live by sorting the several sounds together (percussion, strings, etc.) through different channels.

Let's talk installation locations... although I can install the Reason software onto any drive I'd like (C, D, etc.) I cannot do the same for all the libraries. And my storage space on C (= SSD) is limited. I simply can't afford any more silliness like that. Also considering that sample based instruments seem to become quite popular with the RE developers. And unfortunately they all insist on dumping their stuff onto C as well.

Let's talk workflow... the one thing I love about Reason is its rack and the ability to set up all the crazy routing you'd like using those awesome virtual cables. Needless to say: the tab key is very important to me. Same goes for the delete key: sometimes I'm not sure about which instrument (or effect (or player!)) to use and then I tend to quickly exchange one for the other. Easy: DDDD :mrgreen: Delete, Drag & Drop and Done. :geek: Can't do that with the VST, you're constantly right clicking your mouse to try and find delete so that you can click it. blech..

And let's talk Reason 11... Reason 10 introduced Europa, Grain, Pangea, Klang & Humana. Not to mention adding Synchronous & Radical Piano to the default rack. Reason 11 added several rack devices which functionality was already there and then the Quartet Chorus ensemble plus the Sweeper modulation effect. Each to their own but I'm not impressed.

So I ended up removing Reason 11 + the VST and right now I'm back on Reason 10, usually rewired into Live 10, together with a huge collection of awesome rack extensions. I'm honestly impressed & very happy with my gear.

But where does this leave me in the future?

See, I also didn't really like Reason 5 and even though I had a license to upgrade I kept using 4. Then 6 combined Record & Reason and we got one heck of an upgrade so I upgraded. I also didn't like 7, nor 8, wondered about 9 but 10 collected so many new things that I really felt that this would severely improve my setup (and it has!).

But now I run into a new major issue. Because Reason Studios dropped ReWire my (optional) upgrade options have become quite limited. Any upgrade I might consider from here on would severely change my workflow because I'd be forced to working with the VST. A VST which, sorry to say, really doesn't come close to the stuff I can do using ReWire. It's not even about the workflow perse but also all the other annoyances. See above for my overview.

And that got me thinking...

If Reason Studios believe that VST is the future then who knows.. maybe they're right. They were right about most other stuff in Reason (at least I think so). But considering the fact that I really don't like the Rack VST and that ReWire has been removed... maybe I should stay put on 10 and look into something else which does provide a more reliable workflow (basically: protection of said workflow)?

So this evening I decided that I might as well take another look at Komplete. Which I did. Which I enjoyed. Which I then grabbed and which I am now installing. Meant to be used in Live as an expansion together with Reason. One thing is for sure: I definitely won't be getting Scenic anymore because Komplete also has a rather large collection of Cinematic instruments.

And my point is? ...

I can't help but wonder if Reason Studio's aren't playing a dangerous game here. I love Reason and its specific workflow. But I need stability in my setups even more. When I started with Live (8) things evolved. I bought into 9 solely because of their Orchestral Instrument Collection which was included. I bought into 10 because I wanted the best Push experience. But over all those (nearly) 10 years nothing dramatically changed. I can still use ReWire, I can still use Max for Live (and Max itself), all the features I relied on are still here.

And I can say the same thing for Komplete. Although I never owned the complete Komplete (lol) up until now I have been using "Komplete Elements" (got it way before it got nerfed) and things simple worked and over the years kept on working. Not to mention sounding pretty awesome.

Reason 11 on the other hand takes away a key element of my workflow without giving me a useful substitute in return. And what guarantees do I have that they will correct this in the future?

Harshly put: without ReWire the Reason environment is useless to me. I even use ReWire between Live and Max 8 even though I have Max for Live as well (which is also build on Max 8). I want connectivity!

So the way I see things right now it makes more sense to buy into something that can expand on both Live and Reason as an option (Komplete is mostly build on VSTs) and which won't put me into such a tight spot. I'm pretty sure that I can rely on Native Instruments not to drop the VST format any time soon :puf_bigsmile:

And that makes me seriously wonder if I shouldn't slowly (but steadily) start relying more on Komplete. And the best part: It can enhance my Reason setup as well!
--- :reason:
Using the 'Power' Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Maschine Mk3 (+ the ultimate Komplete 12).
Blog: SynthFan (under heavy construction!)

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plaamook
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Post 13 Oct 2019

Are you aware that you can run R10 and R11 at the same time? You can just switch back and forth, no need to uninstall, reinstall, etc.

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ShelLuser
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Post 13 Oct 2019

plaamook wrote:
13 Oct 2019
Are you aware that you can run R10 and R11 at the same time? You can just switch back and forth, no need to uninstall, reinstall, etc.
Thanks for the feedback, I appreciate it. I'm well aware, but although your story is true it's only partially true. I've tried it: adding the VST into Live while also having Reason 10 active (rewired into Live). Everything went great until... Until I used the same instrument or effect in both environments. The moment I did that one of the two would shut down and it just stopped playing. So there is an issue here.

Another problem is that I dislike keeping software around if I'm hardly going to use it. I'm not the kind of user who wants to own stuff "because", it needs to have a purpose. Especially within the field of audio design & synthesis.

And well, there's also the issue of limited storage on my C drive ;)

It's funny because even though I don't necessarily like the way VST support works within Reason I'm having the time of my life right now just messing with combing one into the other...

reason_komplete.jpg

It's only a scope for now, but you got to start somewhere :) I've been using Guitar Rig for years already but I'm very new to Reaktor (in edit mode, I've had the player for a long time too). Here I'm simply messing around, playing Reason using Push and just having some fun trying to come up with a nice way to add parallel sounds (and effects) to Europa using Reaktor.

But this pretty much showcases why I decided to take this route: this way I can use the Komplete expansion on all my favorite environments. Hmm, maybe I should change my signature a bit ;)
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--- :reason:
Using the 'Power' Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Maschine Mk3 (+ the ultimate Komplete 12).
Blog: SynthFan (under heavy construction!)

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selig
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Post 13 Oct 2019

I've used Komplete since it was introduced - put a pause on it when I focused more on Reason, but was super glad to have Komplete back in my regular setup again when Reason added VST support because IMO it's a perfect complement ("Komplement?") to Reason.
The only other VSTs I use are Ozone 8 elements for quick mastering, and Arturia Pigments because I like the modulation routing scheme.
I rely heavily on Kontakt and Reaktor, getting into the other instrument (Massive, Battery, Absynth, etc) when I need something different than what Reason provides, either from a sound/library standpoint or a workflow change to keep things "fresh".
Selig Audio, LLC

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O1B
Posts: 1656
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Post 13 Oct 2019

I needed that info. Ozone 8 elements for quick mastering, and Arturia Pigments.
Thanks.
selig wrote:
13 Oct 2019
The only other VSTs I use are Ozone 8 elements for quick mastering, and Arturia Pigments because I like the modulation routing scheme.
I rely heavily on Kontakt and Reaktor, getting into the other instrument (Massive, Battery, Absynth, etc) when I need something different than what Reason provides,

....either from a sound/library standpoint or a workflow change to keep things "fresh".

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ShelLuser
Posts: 203
Joined: 25 Aug 2019

Post 13 Oct 2019

selig wrote:
13 Oct 2019
I've used Komplete since it was introduced - put a pause on it when I focused more on Reason, but was super glad to have Komplete back in my regular setup again when Reason added VST support because IMO it's a perfect complement ("Komplement?") to Reason.
It took me 9 years but now I fully understand why you feel his way.

It's a funny story (IMO) because I actually steered clear of Komplete (until now) and instead went Reason. Everyone within the Ableton community seriously wondered why I didn't picked up on Komplete (which seemed to be the go-to expansion back then) but the problem is that I never cared for "commonly accepted" stuff and always did my own thing. In this example I ignored Komplete (mostly) and focused on Reason to expand on my Live setup. Which got me 3 sound engines to enjoy (Live, Reason & Max).

For a sound designer such as myself Reason is an awesome expansion in itself.

In all fairness: I did buy into Komplete Elements 7 (way before it got nerfed) and I have been using that setup (with a few individual expansions I bought over the years) ever since this weekend.

But I can really see where you're coming from, and I couldn't agree more.
O1B wrote:
13 Oct 2019
I needed that info. Ozone 8 elements for quick mastering, and Arturia Pigments.
Thanks.
Now, a disclaimer is well in place here because I cannot deny possible bias and plain out favoritism to be in effect here.

But my issue right now is that I get the impression that you seem to think that good mastering relies on a specific toolset. And seriously: it doesn't. Tools don't make a good craftsman. I honestly wouldn't underestimate the stuff you can do with the Mix & Mastering rig setup for example. Of course here's where personal bias kicks in.

That's not saying that there isn't any value into Ozone, it has been a leading drive for mastering for a long time now. But I do want to emphasize on the fact that specific tools don't necessarily make a better mastering setup. Maybe an easier one, sure, but then again.... that may not always be a good thing.
--- :reason:
Using the 'Power' Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Maschine Mk3 (+ the ultimate Komplete 12).
Blog: SynthFan (under heavy construction!)

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O1B
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Post 14 Oct 2019

"Now, a disclaimer..."
"But my issue right now is that I get the impression..."
"That's not saying that there isn't any value"

What in the Holy Hell?!

Dude....just.... Relax.


ShelLuser wrote:
13 Oct 2019
Now, a disclaimer is well in place here because I cannot deny possible bias and plain out favoritism to be in effect here.

But my issue right now is that I get the impression that you seem to think that good mastering relies on a specific toolset. And seriously: it doesn't. Tools don't make a good craftsman. I honestly wouldn't underestimate the stuff you can do with the Mix & Mastering rig setup for example. Of course here's where personal bias kicks in.

That's not saying that there isn't any value into Ozone, it has been a leading drive for mastering for a long time now. But I do want to emphasize on the fact that specific tools don't necessarily make a better mastering setup. Maybe an easier one, sure, but then again.... that may not always be a good thing.

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ShelLuser
Posts: 203
Joined: 25 Aug 2019

Post 14 Oct 2019

O1B wrote:
14 Oct 2019
What in the Holy Hell?!

Dude....just.... Relax.
No worries, I'm always very relaxed :)

Just a little excessive with writing in the weekend I suppose.
--- :reason:
Using the 'Power' Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Maschine Mk3 (+ the ultimate Komplete 12).
Blog: SynthFan (under heavy construction!)

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Oquasec
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Joined: 05 Mar 2017

Post 14 Oct 2019

If you wanna use R11 sequencer again then you need to run reason first, then daw second, then Loopmidi emi some channels.
Producer/Sound Designer.

PhillipOrdonez
Posts: 608
Joined: 20 Oct 2017
Location: Colombia

Post 14 Oct 2019

How come separate outputs from the vst rack aren't working for you?

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ShelLuser
Posts: 203
Joined: 25 Aug 2019

Post 14 Oct 2019

PhillipOrdonez wrote:
14 Oct 2019
How come separate outputs from the vst rack aren't working for you?
I don't know, I suspect a bug of some sort. Also see the thread I linked in my original post; as soon as I set up the VST I could see that it has multiple audio channels available but only the main channel actually provided audio data, all other channels remained silent. I easily ruled out a possible problem with Live itself because some of my other VST's don't have this issue.

But at this point it's "I don't know and I no longer care" for me.
--- :reason:
Using the 'Power' Trio: Live 10 Suite (+ Push & Max 8 ), Reason 10 and Maschine Mk3 (+ the ultimate Komplete 12).
Blog: SynthFan (under heavy construction!)

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