Propellerheads wont transfer REs. Is this legal?

[Oquasec]

Since you can change your email/password you don't have a reason to make a new propellerhead account honestly.
Props put a lot of safeguards into codemeter too for that very reason

[QVprod]

That ruling easily applies to Reason, which can be resold. Not so easily to applied Rack Extensions. "Licenses" are tied to the account which can't be sold. They don't have their own individual serial numbers. According to the the law mentioned:

The Court points out, however, that if the licence acquired by the first acquirer relates to a greater
number of users than he needs, that acquirer is not authorised by the effect of the exhaustion of
the distribution right to divide the licence and resell only part of it.

It could be argued that REs are not separate computer programs but rather part of a whole. Since accounts can't be sold the above quote would apply, putting them inline with EU law. Sure you could fight that, as it's all up to interpretation, but that'd be a hard legal battle to win.

[WongoTheSane]

according to what statute(s)?

http://curia.europa.eu/juris/documents. ... anguage=en

Picking a few quotes from those documents...

2. Nothing in this Treaty shall affect the freedom of Contracting Parties to determine the conditions, if any, under which the exhaustion of the right in paragraph 1 applies after the first sale or other transfer of ownership of the original or a copy of the work with the authorisation of the author.’

‘1. Member States shall provide for authors, in respect of the original of their works or of copies thereof, the exclusive right to authorise or prohibit any form of distribution to the public by sale or otherwise.

2. The distribution right shall not be exhausted within the Community in respect of the original or copies of the work, except where the first sale or other transfer of ownership in the Community of that object is made by the rightholder or with his consent.’

2. The first sale in the Community of a copy of a program by the rightholder or with his consent shall exhaust the distribution right within the Community of that copy, with the exception of the right to control further rental of the program or a copy thereof.’

1. Article 4(2) of Directive 2009/24/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 23 April 2009 on the legal protection of computer programs must be interpreted as meaning that the right of distribution of a copy of a computer program is exhausted if the copyright holder who has authorised, even free of charge, the downloading of that copy from the internet onto a data carrier has also conferred, in return for payment of a fee intended to enable him to obtain a remuneration corresponding to the economic value of the copy of the work of which he is the proprietor, a right to use that copy for an unlimited period.

The rulings authorizing reselling of used software only apply to those that can be transferred through a physical medium. Seeing that Rack Extensions are available through a cloud and that maintaining that cloud incurs costs, they are specifically excluded from that ruling. I'm not a lawyer but I wouldn't bet on a favorable issue for your trial, OP...

[pushedbutton]

You're looking at it the wrong way.
You buy the product on the understanding that you agree to the terms and that breaking the rules set by propellerhead, not the courts, will result in your account being banned.
It's like expecting to walk into a nightclub in trainers and kicking off about your legal rights when you're ejected for not adhering to the dress code, you're not the club owner, you don't get a say in who gets let in and you can't expect the police to help you to outstay your welcome.

[diminished]

That ruling easily applies to Reason, which can be resold. Not so easily to applied Rack Extensions. "Licenses" are tied to the account which can't be sold. They don't have their own individual serial numbers. According to the the law mentioned:

The Court points out, however, that if the licence acquired by the first acquirer relates to a greater
number of users than he needs, that acquirer is not authorised by the effect of the exhaustion of
the distribution right to divide the licence and resell only part of it.

It could be argued that REs are not separate computer programs but rather part of a whole. Since accounts can't be sold the above quote would apply, putting them inline with EU law. Sure you could fight that, as it's all up to interpretation, but that'd be a hard legal battle to win.

Especially since you can't buy or use REs somewhere else than in the PH shop/ Reason...

[diminished]

That ruling easily applies to Reason, which can be resold. Not so easily to applied Rack Extensions. "Licenses" are tied to the account which can't be sold. They don't have their own individual serial numbers. According to the the law mentioned:

The Court points out, however, that if the licence acquired by the first acquirer relates to a greater
number of users than he needs, that acquirer is not authorised by the effect of the exhaustion of
the distribution right to divide the licence and resell only part of it.

It could be argued that REs are not separate computer programs but rather part of a whole. Since accounts can't be sold the above quote would apply, putting them inline with EU law. Sure you could fight that, as it's all up to interpretation, but that'd be a hard legal battle to win.

By the way, that quote refers to volume licenses if I'm not mistaken. Like you can't resell parts of your Win10 Volume License to different people, only the whole thing.

[gdm41]

Thanks for the input guys. Maybe this case is not so crystal clear... But I will open an claim on the EU dispute plattform.

[gdm41]

Yes it’s legal. You agreed to it, lol.

btw whats funny too: I agreed to nothing. Just checked the buy process, there is no checkbox for TOS or EULA....

https://ibb.co/hm0s3Bs

[diminished]

Thanks for the input guys. Maybe this case is not so crystal clear... But I will open an claim on the EU dispute plattform.

Personally I think you're right, the way it is now is not okay. A "nuh-uh" response to your request (if it was that way) isn't either.
Personally I think, and this is what I would do if I was in their place, they are sitting out the whole thing until everything is subscription based. Subscription models are excluded from that ruling.
Good luck with the dispute! Where can one do that by the way?

[gdm41]

@diminished

I open a claim on this page:

https://ec.europa.eu/consumers/odr/main ... how&lng=EN

[sleep1979]

Thanks for the input guys. Maybe this case is not so crystal clear... But I will open an claim on the EU dispute plattform.

we will all sign it im sure if you make an online petition

[gdm41]

Thanks for the input guys. Maybe this case is not so crystal clear... But I will open an claim on the EU dispute plattform.

we will all sign it im sure if you make an online petition

somebody else did that already

https://www.change.org/p/propellerhead- ... tensions-2

[sleep1979]

we will all sign it im sure if you make an online petition

somebody else did that already

https://www.change.org/p/propellerhead- ... tensions-2

well that was mediocre did he promote it well ?

[diminished]

we will all sign it im sure if you make an online petition

somebody else did that already

https://www.change.org/p/propellerhead- ... tensions-2

2014!!
Remarkable.

[bxbrkrz]

Yes it’s legal. You agreed to it, lol.

btw whats funny too: I agreed to nothing. Just checked the buy process, there is no checkbox for TOS or EULA....

https://ibb.co/hm0s3Bs

When you realized that situation wasn't for you at all, did you cancel the purchase, or did you find out after the purchase?

[gdm41]

btw whats funny too: I agreed to nothing. Just checked the buy process, there is no checkbox for TOS or EULA....

https://ibb.co/hm0s3Bs

When you realized that situation wasn't for you at all, did you cancel the purchase, or did you find out after the purchase?

I didnt know, that i cant transfer RE, just had in mind, that i can transfer reason licenses so i thought i can transfer RE aswell.

[bxbrkrz]

When you realized that situation wasn't for you at all, did you cancel the purchase, or did you find out after the purchase?

I didnt know, that i cant transfer RE, just had in mind, that i can transfer reason licenses so i thought i can transfer RE aswell.

Did you stop buying more REs when you finally understood the situation? When I say "more" I mean after buying one RE.
I want to say I agree. It would be great if we could transfers our RE purchase. I personally knew the situation BEFORE I purchased my first RE. There was zero doubts into what I was doing and agreed too, but this is the situation with everything I do in life, just not with REs, obviously.
Anyway, godspeed with that EU endeavor. I am sure everyone here is curious about the proceeding, cost, time it will take, etc.

[QVprod]

That ruling easily applies to Reason, which can be resold. Not so easily to applied Rack Extensions. "Licenses" are tied to the account which can't be sold. They don't have their own individual serial numbers. According to the the law mentioned:



It could be argued that REs are not separate computer programs but rather part of a whole. Since accounts can't be sold the above quote would apply, putting them inline with EU law. Sure you could fight that, as it's all up to interpretation, but that'd be a hard legal battle to win.

By the way, that quote refers to volume licenses if I'm not mistaken. Like you can't resell parts of your Win10 Volume License to different people, only the whole thing.

Could be, but not clearly stated. Could be spun.

[botnotbot]

US companies still need to comply with EU law in order to conduct commerce within the union. Just check for those cookie warnings for confirmation.

So yeah, better to take this up with Google and Apple than Propellerhead.

[dioxide]

@diminished

I open a claim on this page:

https://ec.europa.eu/consumers/odr/main ... how&lng=EN

Great. Then we know who to blame when Reason goes subscription only and RE prices go up.

[diminished]

Great. Then we know who to blame when Reason goes subscription only and RE prices go up.

It's already happening, piece by piece, no need to blame anyone who wants to resell unused Rack Extensions.
https://ask.audio/articles/soundation-a ... online-daw

[dioxide]

Great. Then we know who to blame when Reason goes subscription only and RE prices go up.

It's already happening, piece by piece, no need to blame anyone who wants to resell unused Rack Extensions.
https://ask.audio/articles/soundation-a ... online-daw

That's another DAW not Reason.

Allowing users to sell RE licences will result in prices of REs being higher, as devs have to compensate for having a number of second hand licences in circulation. Subscriptions are the only way around allowing users to sell licences on.

[diminished]

It's already happening, piece by piece, no need to blame anyone who wants to resell unused Rack Extensions.
https://ask.audio/articles/soundation-a ... online-daw

That's another DAW not Reason.

Allowing users to sell RE licences will result in prices of REs being higher, as devs have to compensate for having a number of second hand licences in circulation. Subscriptions are the only way around allowing users to sell licences on.

Do devs want to rely on the sales made to unhappy customers? The hypothetical RE in question has already been paid for and the (unhappy?) owner will have the license removed from his/her account. And what if they get a small cut? (I feel like this has been discussed before) Buyer pays $15 - $9 for the previous owner, $3 for the dev and $3 processing fee for the Props. That's 20% of the resale price for both Props and dev; in addition to the initial sales price and results in a situation where all parties are happy.

[dioxide]

Buyer's regret is a thing. Why should devs have to pay for a person's bad decision though? We all make bad purchases. Just roll with it and move on and maybe learn to be more careful next time.

[gdm41]

@diminished

I open a claim on this page:

https://ec.europa.eu/consumers/odr/main ... how&lng=EN

Great. Then we know who to blame when Reason goes subscription only and RE prices go up.

They already on a road to subscription only model, and i dont like it. And that is exactly why i am so pissed off. The offer as RE´s as a subscription model, as rent to own(!) and direct purchase. They offer Reason itself as a direct purchase as well, and i can transfer it but the RE´s (which i also buyed directly) are not transferable? And they also referring to a EULA which i dont see, or have to read when buy the REs?