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Re: Climate Change
Posted: 17 Sep 2019
by RobC
Last year I planted 275 tomato plants. Harvest was not satisfying, but I had enough tomatoes for a year.
This year, 1000 plants. There were a lot of cold-hot weathers on and off. The harvest is worse than what the 275 last year gave.
So yeah, I felt a change. Weird things happen.
Also, last week there was an unusual 120 km/h wind blowing. A few trees split, luckily none went on the roof. The trees outside sure looked like they were drunk afterwards.
Honestly, I start thinking about sticking to canned tomatoes and call it a day.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 17 Sep 2019
by reggie1979
EnochLight wrote: ↑17 Sep 2019
reggie1979 wrote: ↑16 Sep 2019
Is anyone interested in facts? FACT, in 1970 Nixon signed the EPA in existence. First of it's kinda and BEST example in human history.
We were headed towards "Soylent Green" prior to that. The EPA despite it's faults helped clean up and put a better tomorrow forward.
BO didn't do that. He gave up.
Of course we’re interested in facts, so the question is: why would you post an outright fabricated lie in the same paragraph as your fact?
We were not headed towards turning people into food. Suggesting as such is very perplexing.
You are a tough nut to crack. I speaking of the climate change. You are TOO literal.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 17 Sep 2019
by reggie1979
And you obviously enjoy fighting and personal attacks more than debating, so, click.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 17 Sep 2019
by EnochLight
reggie1979 wrote: ↑17 Sep 2019
You are a tough nut to crack. I speaking of the climate change. You are TOO literal.
Well, to my defense - you stated very clearly 'Soylent Green" (which suggests eating people), in the same sentence you proposed presenting facts.
reggie1979 wrote: ↑17 Sep 2019
And you obviously enjoy fighting and personal attacks more than debating, so, click.
I enjoy a good debate, but please point out where I personally attacked anyone?
I'll wait.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 17 Sep 2019
by reggie1979
Climate change can be attributed to many things.
For one, the sun IS getting larger. Um, proof of this is the other planets are getting hotter too, but please, don't let science get in they way
And again, going from 2.5 BILLION people to 7.5 BILLION people in a few decades should matter. Maybe we're not going towards eating people, but we are choking the planet with 3rd world countries and their dismal waste disposal.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 18 Sep 2019
by miscend
EnochLight wrote: ↑17 Sep 2019
miscend wrote: ↑17 Sep 2019
Honestly climate change is what is good for the earth. Just like what it did to the dinosaurs, climate change would most likely wipe out humanity, the earth will simply adapt and continue to be around like always.
That's a strangely non-humanist thing to say, but I get where you're coming from. I just don't buy into the whole "humans will destroy themselves and earth will move on" sort of philosophy. If anyone (thing) can fix this, it's humans. We caused it. We can stop it. We just need to get off our asses and change human society as a whole. It should also be pointed out that the final extinction of the dinosaurs was largely caused by the Chicxulub meteor impact, not by climate change caused
by the dinosaurs.
Maybe they were wiped out by Chicxulub. But my main point is that throughout the history of the planet several species have been wiped out by climate change(the ice age for example) or other events and that seems like the normal cycle of things. The earth will simply adapt to what ever gets thrown at it; be it climate change, occasional meteorite strikes or the Sun expanding/getting warmer etc etc.Whatever form of life that emerges after extinction events has to adapt to the new conditions.
Do you have scientific data to back up that claim? Arguably, when India, Brazil, Nigeria and China become completely modernized and "rich" by global standards, this could also place their cultures in a position to do so responsibly and with minimal impact on the environment, if done the right way. Is it a long shot? Well, sure. But I fail to understand what makes any of those countries unable to be sustained by the earth if they inevitably become rich..?
Per capita the average American consumes 14x more than the average Indian person. And India has a much larger population than America, the difference is that India is at a different stage of their development. Throughout history whenever countries grew their economies they also had to greatly increase their consumption of resources. So it follows that when India becomes more developed, as those who were once poor farmers in rural areas enter the middle classes and start consuming like middle classes elsewhere. That they will have greater environmental impact.
https://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/ ... ion_energy
Why is this unsustainable for the earth? Sustaining human beings uses up resources and produces emissions. On earth many species became extinct as a result of growing human population. And according to scientists the climate is also changing as a result of us. Agriculture is a major producer of greenhouse gas emissions and environmental degradation. In future we will need a order of magnitude more livestock to feed everyone. Energy consumption is a problem too, coal and oil are all finite resources. Renewable energy is expensive and currently cannot meet all demand. It's gotten to the point where we're already thinking about mining other planets or even asteroids for resources. So I think its a fair assumption that as the human population grows and as we become richer, that we will need ever more resources for our economies.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 18 Sep 2019
by EnochLight
Pretending human activity
not being the cause of the vast majority of climate change is the very definition of science ignorance.
There’s just as much (if not more) evidence that humans are the main cause as there is evidence that smoking causes cancer.
But please - continue!
miscend wrote: ↑18 Sep 2019
EnochLight wrote: ↑17 Sep 2019
That's a strangely non-humanist thing to say, but I get where you're coming from. I just don't buy into the whole "humans will destroy themselves and earth will move on" sort of philosophy. If anyone (thing) can fix this, it's humans. We caused it. We can stop it. We just need to get off our asses and change human society as a whole. It should also be pointed out that the final extinction of the dinosaurs was largely caused by the Chicxulub meteor impact, not by climate change caused
by the dinosaurs.
Maybe they were wiped out by Chicxulub. But my main point is that throughout the history of the planet several species have been wiped out by climate change(the ice age for example) or other events and that seems like the normal cycle of things. The earth will simply adapt to what ever gets thrown at it; be it climate change, occasional meteorite strikes or the Sun expanding/getting warmer etc etc.Whatever form of life that emerges after extinction events has to adapt to the new conditions.
Do you have scientific data to back up that claim? Arguably, when India, Brazil, Nigeria and China become completely modernized and "rich" by global standards, this could also place their cultures in a position to do so responsibly and with minimal impact on the environment, if done the right way. Is it a long shot? Well, sure. But I fail to understand what makes any of those countries unable to be sustained by the earth if they inevitably become rich..?
Per capita the average American consumes 14x more than the average Indian person. And India has a much larger population than America, the difference is that India is at a different stage of their development. Throughout history whenever countries grew their economies they also had to greatly increase their consumption of resources. So it follows that when India becomes more developed, as those who were once poor farmers in rural areas enter the middle classes and start consuming like middle classes elsewhere. That they will have greater environmental impact.
https://www.worldpopulationbalance.org/ ... ion_energy
Why is this unsustainable for the earth? Sustaining human beings uses up resources and produces emissions. On earth many species became extinct as a result of growing human population. And according to scientists the climate is also changing as a result of us. Agriculture is a major producer of greenhouse gas emissions and environmental degradation. In future we will need a order of magnitude more livestock to feed everyone. Energy consumption is a problem too, coal and oil are all finite resources. Renewable energy is expensive and currently cannot meet all demand. It's gotten to the point where we're already thinking about mining other planets or even asteroids for resources. So I think its a fair assumption that as the human population grows and as we become richer, that we will need ever more resources for our economies.
Gotcha. I guess my perspective is this: there is zero evidence to suggest that a particular species' extinction events in the past were caused
by their own activity. I don't think anyone doubts the earth will "move on" and be here far longer than humans will be, though. It's just a travesty that we are to blame for so many other species extinction, and are seemingly working tirelessly to make our only inhabitable planet as inhospitable as possible.
It also saddens me deeply to see many people refusing to believe that we are the main cause, when there is overwhelming scientific evidence to suggest otherwise. It's like they're getting their "science" from Infowars and YouTube videos posted by non-academics. It's sad.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 18 Sep 2019
by jappe
miscend wrote: ↑18 Sep 2019
Per capita the average
American consumes 14x more than the average Indian person. And India has a much larger population than America, the difference is that India is at a different stage of their development. Throughout history whenever countries grew their economies they also had to greatly increase their consumption of resources. So it follows that when India becomes more developed, as those who were once poor farmers in rural areas enter the middle classes and start consuming like middle classes elsewhere. That they will have greater environmental impact.
Just adding some more complexity from totally non-verified sources, so feel free to blow this to smithereens if any of you got better facts than these numbers:
"A cow does on overage release between 70 and 120 kg of Methane per year. Methane is a greenhouse gas like carbon dioxide (CO2). But the negative effect on the climate of Methane is
23 times higher than the effect of CO2."
https://timeforchange.org/are-cows-caus ... ethane-CO2
"World cattle inventory
India: 305 000 000
USA: 94 399 000"
https://beef2live.com/story-world-cattl ... s-0-106905
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 18 Sep 2019
by miscend
jappe wrote: ↑18 Sep 2019
miscend wrote: ↑18 Sep 2019
Per capita the average
American consumes 14x more than the average Indian person. And India has a much larger population than America, the difference is that India is at a different stage of their development. Throughout history whenever countries grew their economies they also had to greatly increase their consumption of resources. So it follows that when India becomes more developed, as those who were once poor farmers in rural areas enter the middle classes and start consuming like middle classes elsewhere. That they will have greater environmental impact.
Just adding some more complexity from totally non-verified sources, so feel free to blow this to smithereens if any of you got better facts than these numbers:
"A cow does on overage release between 70 and 120 kg of Methane per year. Methane is a greenhouse gas like carbon dioxide (CO2). But the negative effect on the climate of Methane is
23 times higher than the effect of CO2."
https://timeforchange.org/are-cows-caus ... ethane-CO2
"World cattle inventory
India: 305 000 000
USA: 94 399 000"
https://beef2live.com/story-world-cattl ... s-0-106905
They don't eat beef in India, they treat cattle like we do horses. Just imagine how many cows they would have if they did?
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 18 Sep 2019
by EnochLight
Mmmmmm.... steak.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 18 Sep 2019
by fullforce
I woke up with a cold toe today. Must be climate change. EHRMAGERD OUTLAW CO2
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 18 Sep 2019
by fullforce
miscend wrote: ↑18 Sep 2019
They don't eat beef in India, they treat cattle like we do horses. Just imagine how many cows they would have if they did?
We worship horses?
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 18 Sep 2019
by diminished
fullforce wrote: ↑18 Sep 2019
miscend wrote: ↑18 Sep 2019
They don't eat beef in India, they treat cattle like we do horses. Just imagine how many cows they would have if they did?
We worship horses?
Yes, if it's in lasagna.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2013_horse_meat_scandal
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 18 Sep 2019
by stratatonic
miscend wrote: ↑18 Sep 2019
They don't eat beef in India, they treat cattle like we do horses.
Oh! I remember fondly when Surabhi won the Bombay Derby by 31 lengths- capturing the Triple Crown!
What a heifer!
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 18 Sep 2019
by Creativemind
RobC wrote: ↑17 Sep 2019
Last year I planted 275 tomato plants. Harvest was not satisfying, but I had enough tomatoes for a year.
This year, 1000 plants. There were a lot of cold-hot weathers on and off. The harvest is worse than what the 275 last year gave.
So yeah, I felt a change. Weird things happen.
Also, last week there was an unusual 120 km/h wind blowing. A few trees split, luckily none went on the roof. The trees outside sure looked like they were drunk afterwards.
Honestly, I start thinking about sticking to canned tomatoes and call it a day.
No keep up the good work.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 18 Sep 2019
by Creativemind
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 18 Sep 2019
by Boombastix
Things has to get really REALLY bad before people will change the mindset en masse (my guess), 'cause "greed is good" - remember that movie?
India/China already suffer a toxic environment (especially city air), and China is trying to promote electric cars, but is that enough when coal plants pop up like mushrooms? I doubt that. (electricity still has to come from somewhere, so more CO2 when you switch from bicycle/moped to electric car).
The allure to move to western culture. India has already adopted western music ideas and meat consumption is increasing. The USA will probably export the "best of" foods like what happened in Mexico after Nafta, Mexican obesity rates blew through the roof and last time I checked it was even worse than USA... The institution of CAFO meat factories was driven by fast food chains and $1 burgers. More cows more methane...
All those cows eat GMO crops, so back to greed - YOU can invest in GMO corp's and pharma stocks, since the population will eat more fast food and become sick from bad air and bad food. Humanity en masse ain't smart, might as well grab some bucks as the ship sinks, no?
You can increase gasoline prices in the US to the double to match European prices, but just a 5 cent increase gets headline news and people go nuts - any politician will do career suicide trying. People can only act from their self interest, so nobody will sacrifice for the greater good - it just won't happen... It's...humanity, don't kid yourself.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 18 Sep 2019
by EnochLight
Boombastix wrote: ↑18 Sep 2019
All those cows eat GMO crops, so back to greed - YOU can invest in GMO corp's and pharma stocks, since the population will eat more fast food and become sick from bad air and bad food. Humanity en masse ain't smart, might as well grab some bucks as the ship sinks, no?
To be fair, GMO is not only completely safe, we (as in humans) have been genetically modifying the plants/food we grow for decades. GMO's have increased crop yields and tolerance to pestilence (without the need for chemicals) so well that it would be irresponsible not to grow them. I know big corps suck, and the patent trolling companies like Monsanto were an abomination for their business practices, but GMO's do
NOT deserve the bad rap and fear that people seem to give them.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 18 Sep 2019
by reggie1979
Good god. Do you even know?
The planets and moons are warming. You can't go from 2.5 billion to 7.5 billion w/o changes. The sun is getting bigger. We don't really have a clue, do we?
People are so willing to jump on a bandwagon, w/o any sense of reality. What does enoch have to say about that? More personal BS w/o fact?
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 19 Sep 2019
by EnochLight
reggie1979 wrote: ↑18 Sep 2019
Good god. Do you even know?
The planets and moons are warming. You can't go from 2.5 billion to 7.5 billion w/o changes. The sun is getting bigger. We don't really have a clue, do we?
People are so willing to jump on a bandwagon, w/o any sense of reality. What does enoch have to say about that? More personal BS w/o fact?
I’m more than willing to engage in a spirited debate, if you’re willing to cite your verified sources that support your opinion. You’re claiming humans aren’t the main cause of climate change. Your claim flies in the face of known science. So please, tell us more about the sun getting bigger, the moon getting warmer (
) and the population growth...
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 19 Sep 2019
by reggie1979
Let's be realistic.
None of us REALLY know what it is. My answers are dismissed pretty easily but you all don't know either.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 19 Sep 2019
by EnochLight
reggie1979 wrote: ↑19 Sep 2019
Let's be realistic.
None of us REALLY know what it is. My answers are dismissed pretty easily but you all don't know either.
Realistic?
What are you even talking about?
Of course we know what it is - we’ve known for decades. It’s been pointed out a dozen times in this thread. Your answers are dismissed because you’re not offering any sources for your statements, and most of your statements fly in the face of known climate science. You refuse to acknowledge what the vast majority (over 90%) of scientists agree is happening.
That’s just... I honestly have no words, Reggie.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 20 Sep 2019
by Boombastix
EnochLight wrote: ↑18 Sep 2019
To be fair, GMO is not only completely safe, we (as in humans) have been genetically modifying the plants/food we grow for decades.
GMO and cultivation should not be mixed up, it kind of saying all oils are OK to drink, so olive oil and motor oil is OK... Nope.
GMO is very very different from old school cultivation.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 20 Sep 2019
by EnochLight
Boombastix wrote: ↑20 Sep 2019
EnochLight wrote: ↑18 Sep 2019
To be fair, GMO is not only completely safe, we (as in humans) have been genetically modifying the plants/food we grow for decades.
GMO and cultivation should not be mixed up, it kind of saying all oils are OK to drink, so olive oil and motor oil is OK... Nope.
GMO is very very different from old school cultivation.
I’m not talking about cultivating. I am talking about literal GMO’s. There is overwhelming evidence that eating GMO food is completely safe.
Re: Climate Change
Posted: 20 Sep 2019
by diminished
EnochLight wrote: ↑20 Sep 2019
Boombastix wrote: ↑20 Sep 2019
GMO and cultivation should not be mixed up, it kind of saying all oils are OK to drink, so olive oil and motor oil is OK... Nope.
GMO is very very different from old school cultivation.
I’m not talking about cultivating. I am talking about literal GMO’s. There is overwhelming evidence that eating GMO food is completely safe.
Depends on the GM - a plant that's modified to produce poison is not safe, of course
And while a plant, modified to withstand herbicides and pesticides like Round-Up and the like, is most likely safe and safe for consumption, the chemicals used and their residues are NOT and have severe and unpredictable impact on the environment. Just saying this because these things get mixed up a lot, especially in internet discussions..
Classic fails are:
"Monsanto bad [yup] = GMO bad [probably not]" and
"We need GMO because overpopulation!!11! and therefore everything that comes with it is good and you can drink a glass of Round-Up for breakfast"