Climate Change

This forum is for anything not Reason related, if you just want to talk about other stuff. Please keep it friendly!
User avatar
Creativemind
Posts: 2794
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK

Post 19 Apr 2019

Hi All!

For those living in the U.K, you may have seen Sir David Attenborough's documentary last night on BBC1, a very stark warning for us all about climate change.

For those that didn't, here it is (is isn't all doom and gloom, there is some hope at the end of the documentary):-



I feel we should all be doing ALOT more than we are. Recently there have been protests on climate change in London on Waterloo Bridge and Parliament Square etc. As disruptive as it is, I kind of think, good on'em!

The tearing down of the trees in places such as Borneo for palm oil is disgraceful. What are we doing to the planet?

Scientists have said we have to cut carbon emissions and greenhouse gasses by (I think) 55% or more by 2030.

We should and could ALL be doing more.

Thanks!
:reason:

Propellerhead Reason 10.4 / Cockus Reaper 5.978 / Cakewalk By Bandlab / Steinberg Cubase LE 5
http://soundcloud.com/creativemind75/iv ... soul-mix-3

User avatar
xylyx
Posts: 159
Joined: 11 Feb 2015

Post 19 Apr 2019

Creativemind wrote:
19 Apr 2019
What are we doing to the planet?
Simple answer: overpopulating it. Until the rampant production of humans slows down, most of the attempts to cut carbon emissions are just papering over the cracks. I think it is expected that the planet's population will reach 10 billion in 30 years time - how are you going house, feed and cater for their consumer needs whilst attempting to reduce carbon emissions at the same time? The two things seem completely incompatible to me.

MrFigg
Posts: 2275
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

Post 19 Apr 2019

xylyx wrote:
19 Apr 2019
Creativemind wrote:
19 Apr 2019
What are we doing to the planet?
Simple answer: overpopulating it. Until the rampant production of humans slows down, most of the attempts to cut carbon emissions are just papering over the cracks. I think it is expected that the planet's population will reach 10 billion in 30 years time - how are you going house, feed and cater for their consumer needs whilst attempting to reduce carbon emissions at the same time? The two things seem completely incompatible to me.
Possible solution?

User avatar
guitfnky
Posts: 961
Joined: 19 Jan 2015

Post 19 Apr 2019

I’ve given up. been trying to convince people for ~20 years that this is a huge problem that needs to be addressed, and most of those people still insist on believing conservative American politicians over scientists.

the only way to trigger a change in how we treat this planet will be for things to get so bad that it starts to hurt us financially. until that happens, we’ll just keep destroying the planet. and *when* it happens (because it will), it will very likely be too late to prevent the worst of it.

if humanity cares more about money than the planet, and more about our own sustainability on it, then I guess I’ve got to be comfortable letting us see our own way out the door. 😕
Last edited by guitfnky on 20 Apr 2019, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
boingy
Posts: 321
Joined: 01 Feb 2019

Post 19 Apr 2019

The good news is that if you fast forward a few thousand years you'll find a planet that is still here and a human race that is not. The planet remembers all the other ice ages too.

User avatar
Creativemind
Posts: 2794
Joined: 17 Jan 2015
Location: Stoke-On-Trent, England, UK

Post 19 Apr 2019

boingy wrote:
19 Apr 2019
The good news is that if you fast forward a few thousand years you'll find a planet that is still here and a human race that is not. The planet remembers all the other ice ages too.
Very true. I think the human race will be no longer in 50 yrs.
:reason:

Propellerhead Reason 10.4 / Cockus Reaper 5.978 / Cakewalk By Bandlab / Steinberg Cubase LE 5
http://soundcloud.com/creativemind75/iv ... soul-mix-3

User avatar
bxbrkrz
Posts: 1118
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

Post 20 Apr 2019

I stopped using Google.

My carbon footprint went down to almost sub zero.
I grow my own little garden.
Fresh everything. GMO free. Maybe.
I got the seeds from Amazon Prime. Same Day Shipping.
The faster I get my seeds the faster I help the planet. I think.
I call Uber and eat my 100% homemade salad at Central Park.
It tastes better when I am closer to Nature.
My iPhone Pixel S10 (made with the purest Rare-earth elements from China) is telling me it is time for Netflix.
I like watching humans destroying Nature in 4K, in slow motion, and with a nice rumbling bass from my 5.1 10000W sub.
So sad to see. The sound is amazing though.
"Diiiiing!"My Alexa connected microwave made a sound.
Let me check my Amazon app and see why.
My Fair Trade Certified 110% Organic TV dinner from Ecuador is ready.
My La-Z-Boy (with built-in back massage) helps me cope with the sadness I feel.
I help save the planet from my living room.
Somebody should do something about Climate Change!

"OK Google!"









Ostermilk
Posts: 1514
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 22 Apr 2019

Somebody said once that the McDonald's chain was bad for the environment, yet I went to one of their restaurants and it was quite pleasant in there.

reggie1979
Posts: 472
Joined: 11 Apr 2019

Post 22 Apr 2019

I live east of Sacramento. Bottom line, I don't buy into what the "experts" say but rather pay attention to what is actually happening (I know, shocking!)

Things have changed so much in the 14 years I've lived here, but it's kinda gone full-circle. We're back to having snow in the mountains, no more drought (it was extreme) and fairly, I dunno, "east of sac" weather. It's kinda like mother nature is trying to correct herself. It was bad for a while, o, ho, BRUTAL. We were w/o water and death-defying temps. Oh, it was bad.

User avatar
plaamook
Posts: 941
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Location: probably underwater

Post 23 Apr 2019

I think the idea that we should just do something radical is pretty naive.
Historically humans don't organise themselves on large scales unless they're trying to defend themselves. So I guess it'll have to get much worse first.
I'm pretty hopeful either way. Humans are pretty clever. If they're not clever enough they'll be deleted but that's not the end of the universe.
We tried our best I guess. I hope we continue to.

mashers
Posts: 389
Joined: 05 Nov 2018

Post 23 Apr 2019

plaamook wrote:
23 Apr 2019
not the end of the universe.
This is exactly how I have to see it. I am very pessimistic, bordering on depressed, about the state of this planet for various reasons. And it all comes back to Humans. But it's more likely than not that somewhere out there are countless other planets containing life. And some of those planets might have a balance that's working.

Lives don't matter, but life does. So as long as there is life somewhere in the universe, everything is ok.

User avatar
plaamook
Posts: 941
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Location: probably underwater

Post 23 Apr 2019

mashers wrote:
23 Apr 2019
plaamook wrote:
23 Apr 2019
not the end of the universe.
This is exactly how I have to see it. I am very pessimistic, bordering on depressed, about the state of this planet for various reasons. And it all comes back to Humans. But it's more likely than not that somewhere out there are countless other planets containing life. And some of those planets might have a balance that's working.

Lives don't matter, but life does. So as long as there is life somewhere in the universe, everything is ok.
Lives matter too but there's only so much you can do short term. I mean lets face it, they're all gonna die whatever the case. Everyone has to make their peace with that. Hopefully in a positive way rather than becoming nihilistic about things.

Still, the big picture is way Way bigger than all of us. I think it's inspiring to both give a shit about that big picture and something bigger than yourself. Like the whole universe...

mashers
Posts: 389
Joined: 05 Nov 2018

Post 23 Apr 2019

plaamook wrote:
23 Apr 2019
Lives matter too but there's only so much you can do short term. I mean lets face it, they're all gonna die whatever the case. Everyone has to make their peace with that. Hopefully in a positive way rather than becoming nihilistic about things.

Still, the big picture is way Way bigger than all of us. I think it's inspiring to both give a shit about that big picture and something bigger than yourself. Like the whole universe...
When I said that lives don't matter, I meant in the bigger picture sense. Of course there are individual lives which matter to other individual lives. But cosmically, no individual lives matter. Whatever life-forms manage to stick it out to the bitter end on Earth, our Sun will eventually supernova and our solar system will be destroyed. It won't matter to the rest of the universe. The only thing that would have any cosmic significance would be if all life in all parts of the universe were to be destroyed simultaneously. But we aren't aware of anything that could cause that to happen.

I'm thinking a lot about this stuff at the moment. Probably too much. I'm kind of walking a tightrope, and if I fall off I could easily plunge into a nihilistic depression. It's fucking good material though.

User avatar
plaamook
Posts: 941
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Location: probably underwater

Post 23 Apr 2019

mashers wrote:
23 Apr 2019
plaamook wrote:
23 Apr 2019
Lives matter too but there's only so much you can do short term. I mean lets face it, they're all gonna die whatever the case. Everyone has to make their peace with that. Hopefully in a positive way rather than becoming nihilistic about things.

Still, the big picture is way Way bigger than all of us. I think it's inspiring to both give a shit about that big picture and something bigger than yourself. Like the whole universe...
When I said that lives don't matter, I meant in the bigger picture sense. Of course there are individual lives which matter to other individual lives. But cosmically, no individual lives matter. Whatever life-forms manage to stick it out to the bitter end on Earth, our Sun will eventually supernova and our solar system will be destroyed. It won't matter to the rest of the universe. The only thing that would have any cosmic significance would be if all life in all parts of the universe were to be destroyed simultaneously. But we aren't aware of anything that could cause that to happen.

I'm thinking a lot about this stuff at the moment. Probably too much. I'm kind of walking a tightrope, and if I fall off I could easily plunge into a nihilistic depression. It's fucking good material though.
I think they might matter on a cosmic level as well. Not sure.
If you think about it, the interconnectedness of everything means that everything is always effecting everythnig else. Nothing and no one 'does' anything. Rather the entire universe does everytnhig through individual entities which are like islands. They appear as individuals but are in fact mountain tops that all rise up out of the same substrate. But the implications of this, depending on what minds and conciousness prove to be, may be that we're all effecting the entire universe. It's possible. At the very least we're effecting everyone on the planet. By cultures, thought memes, etc. Jimi Hendrix, for example, is the product of everyone, everything that happened from the beginning of time. Thing is you can't really draw boundaries around things properly so you can't say where the effect ends.

mashers
Posts: 389
Joined: 05 Nov 2018

Post 23 Apr 2019

plaamook wrote:
23 Apr 2019
I think they might matter on a cosmic level as well. Not sure.
If you think about it, the interconnectedness of everything means that everything is always effecting everythnig else. Nothing and no one 'does' anything. Rather the entire universe does everytnhig through individual entities which are like islands. They appear as individuals but are in fact mountain tops that all rise up out of the same substrate. But the implications of this, depending on what minds and conciousness prove to be, may be that we're all effecting the entire universe. It's possible. At the very least we're effecting everyone on the planet. By cultures, thought memes, etc. Jimi Hendrix, for example, is the product of everyone, everything that happened from the beginning of time. Thing is you can't really draw boundaries around things properly so you can't say where the effect ends.
I get what you're saying, but the problem I have is that I do not believe we will ever leave our solar system and reach a location at which we can have any meaningful effect. The distance is too great, and I do not believe we will be able to develop the technology to achieve this within the time we have available. We would need to either build a fully self-sufficient* spacecraft, and/or transcend our physical bodies somehow**. Short of either of these things happening, we're stuck within our own solar system. Which means when it is destroyed, there will be no trace of us left anywhere, and no impact of any of our individual actions anywhere in the universe.

As to your point about "depending on what minds and consciousness prove to be" - I don't think that any serious scientists or philosophers make a distinction between the mind and consciousness. Of course, we don't really know what it is. It's the ultimate question as far as I am concerned. But as far as I can tell from the reading I have done, consciousness is little more than a form of empathy in which we can represent our own mind as a third party and observe it from the outside, thus allowing us to be aware of our own thought processes, behaviours and inner states. Of course there is no way of knowing if there is more to it - the soul, I suppose you would call it. And it's likely we would never be able to know were there any such thing. But I would challenge anybody to provide empirical evidence for the existence of the soul, or anything else which persists after the death of the brain. Besides, even if there is such a thing, I don't think it makes any difference. We do not see the effects of the souls of the dead on the natural world. We can't point to the impact they have on the environment around us. So even if the mind does turn out to be something which can persist after the death of the brain, I would still argue that it is of no consequence on a cosmic level because it cannot influence its surroundings in any way whatsoever.

(We are way off-topic now I guess. Perhaps we need a thread for solipsistic musings ;))

* When I say self-sufficient, I mean this in every sense of the word: able to generate energy in the vacuum of space even when there is no possibility of obtaining fuel, able to manufacture an infinite amount of spare parts and carry out repairs on absolutely any part of the vessel, able to generate enough resources for all life aboard, able to maintain stringent control on reproduction to avoid over-population, able to withstand extinction for any reason, which would require a relatively large population in order to even out unexpected deaths and provide a large enough gene pool to minimise genetic fallibilities.

** By this I mean things like mind uploading (while maintaining consciousness, which cannot be guaranteed under any circumstances), or at least transplanting brains into artificial environments to keep them alive for a very significant amount of time, and replenishing dead or damaged neural tissue on an ingoing basis and/or building new brains which can house human consciousness, whether organic or otherwise.

User avatar
plaamook
Posts: 941
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Location: probably underwater

Post 23 Apr 2019

mashers wrote:
23 Apr 2019

I get what you're saying, but the problem I have is that I do not believe we will ever leave our solar system...

As to your point about "depending on what minds and consciousness prove to be" - I don't think that any serious scientists or philosophers make a distinction between the mind and consciousness.
1) That's what I meant by saying I wasn't sure whether we'd be able to effect things beyond our own planet. But even then, who knows.

2) You cold differentiate, and many do, between mind and conciousness depending on what you meant by each word but talking about mind or conciousness or whatever is tricky because no one even agrees about the terms so it's probably best to leave it out of here. Suffice to say that we don't have a model of feckin anything in science that properly describes what's going on there so it's kingd of anyone's game. There's some interesting stuff happening out there in terms of AI development and so on. Or mathematics etc. Or the stuff that Roger Penrose is working on. Curious to see where that goes. Also interesting that western science is finally looking at things like meditation and so on. Took em long enough, but as it's all subjective it's hard to see where that's going to go in a western context.
I read an article inthe New Scientist few years back about a woman who was pushing the idea that conciousness (loose useage of the term here) is a kind of element that gathers or pools in certain areas. Never heard more about it but i found it interesting to think of it like a field rathe than something that just got projected out of grey matter.

Souls I won't bother with. Pretty passe these days ;)

mashers
Posts: 389
Joined: 05 Nov 2018

Post 23 Apr 2019

plaamook wrote:
23 Apr 2019
1) That's what I meant by saying I wasn't sure whether we'd be able to effect things beyond our own planet. But even then, who knows.

2) You cold differentiate, and many do, between mind and conciousness depending on what you meant by each word but talking about mind or conciousness or whatever is tricky because no one even agrees about the terms so it's probably best to leave it out of here. Suffice to say that we don't have a model of feckin anything in science that properly describes what's going on there so it's kingd of anyone's game. There's some interesting stuff happening out there in terms of AI development and so on. Or mathematics etc. Or the stuff that Roger Penrose is working on. Curious to see where that goes. Also interesting that western science is finally looking at things like meditation and so on. Took em long enough, but as it's all subjective it's hard to see where that's going to go in a western context.
I read an article inthe New Scientist few years back about a woman who was pushing the idea that conciousness (loose useage of the term here) is a kind of element that gathers or pools in certain areas. Never heard more about it but i found it interesting to think of it like a field rathe than something that just got projected out of grey matter.

Souls I won't bother with. Pretty passe these days ;)
I agree with everything you've written here, on the whole. I think the problem I have is that we don't have answers to the questions which would determine whether or not we can survive the destruction of our environment. In short, we don't know whether technology will be able to save us, nor whether the physical destruction of our brains is relevant to the ongoing presence of our minds. And it's the not knowing which is sending me down this nihilistic rabbit hole, and leading me to conclude on the basis of the available evidence that when we're gone, we are gone and nobody will ever know we were here.

User avatar
plaamook
Posts: 941
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Location: probably underwater

Post 23 Apr 2019

mashers wrote:
23 Apr 2019
plaamook wrote:
23 Apr 2019
1) That's what I meant by saying I wasn't sure whether we'd be able to effect things beyond our own planet. But even then, who knows.

2) You cold differentiate, and many do, between mind and conciousness depending on what you meant by each word but talking about mind or conciousness or whatever is tricky because no one even agrees about the terms so it's probably best to leave it out of here. Suffice to say that we don't have a model of feckin anything in science that properly describes what's going on there so it's kingd of anyone's game. There's some interesting stuff happening out there in terms of AI development and so on. Or mathematics etc. Or the stuff that Roger Penrose is working on. Curious to see where that goes. Also interesting that western science is finally looking at things like meditation and so on. Took em long enough, but as it's all subjective it's hard to see where that's going to go in a western context.
I read an article inthe New Scientist few years back about a woman who was pushing the idea that conciousness (loose useage of the term here) is a kind of element that gathers or pools in certain areas. Never heard more about it but i found it interesting to think of it like a field rathe than something that just got projected out of grey matter.

Souls I won't bother with. Pretty passe these days ;)
I agree with everything you've written here, on the whole. I think the problem I have is that we don't have answers to the questions which would determine whether or not we can survive the destruction of our environment. In short, we don't know whether technology will be able to save us, nor whether the physical destruction of our brains is relevant to the ongoing presence of our minds. And it's the not knowing which is sending me down this nihilistic rabbit hole, and leading me to conclude on the basis of the available evidence that when we're gone, we are gone and nobody will ever know we were here.
Yeah I ued to get that a lot. Get depressed about it all. And this was years back before Dave and Blue Planet 2 ever came around.
I don't want to be too presumptuous and suggest how a person should run their own mind but I find it helpful to remember a very simple thing which is that we can't see reality. No one can. You build approximations with whatever materials you have and you believe these things are real with all your heart but they're not. They're projections. Now I'm not saying some dire shit aint going down out there, but what you do with it is a creative event.
It's interesting that there are people that are both switched on and not depressed. And they're watching the same news I do. So what's going on there? I mean I'm not detressed all the time, but I've asked that a lot over the years.

mashers
Posts: 389
Joined: 05 Nov 2018

Post 23 Apr 2019

plaamook wrote:
23 Apr 2019
Yeah I ued to get that a lot. Get depressed about it all. And this was years back before Dave and Blue Planet 2 ever came around.
I don't want to be too presumptuous and suggest how a person should run their own mind but I find it helpful to remember a very simple thing which is that we can't see reality. No one can. You build approximations with whatever materials you have and you believe these things are real with all your heart but they're not. They're projections. Now I'm not saying some dire shit aint going down out there, but what you do with it is a creative event.
It's interesting that there are people that are both switched on and not depressed. And they're watching the same news I do. So what's going on there? I mean I'm not detressed all the time, but I've asked that a lot over the years.
I actually feel the same. I am fundamentally a solipsist, and am very aware that all I have to rely on is my own perception. I can't prove conclusively that anything else even exists. But I don't know whether that helps or not.

User avatar
O1B
Posts: 1512
Joined: 26 Jan 2015

Post 23 Apr 2019

Man--?!
Image

Just, get yourself
Image


User avatar
plaamook
Posts: 941
Joined: 22 Jan 2015
Location: probably underwater

Post 23 Apr 2019

mashers wrote:
23 Apr 2019
plaamook wrote:
23 Apr 2019
Yeah I ued to get that a lot. Get depressed about it all. And this was years back before Dave and Blue Planet 2 ever came around.
I don't want to be too presumptuous and suggest how a person should run their own mind but I find it helpful to remember a very simple thing which is that we can't see reality. No one can. You build approximations with whatever materials you have and you believe these things are real with all your heart but they're not. They're projections. Now I'm not saying some dire shit aint going down out there, but what you do with it is a creative event.
It's interesting that there are people that are both switched on and not depressed. And they're watching the same news I do. So what's going on there? I mean I'm not detressed all the time, but I've asked that a lot over the years.
I actually feel the same. I am fundamentally a solipsist, and am very aware that all I have to rely on is my own perception. I can't prove conclusively that anything else even exists. But I don't know whether that helps or not.
Guess it depends on what your'e trying to do with it. Who can say. But assuming you're going on the same assumptions the rest of us are (that while I can't prove anything out there exists I'll just get busy extropatating and tryingto work out a model that describes reality with predictable results) you have the option to decide where you want to point your arrow.

mashers
Posts: 389
Joined: 05 Nov 2018

Post 23 Apr 2019

plaamook wrote:
23 Apr 2019
Guess it depends on what your'e trying to do with it. Who can say. But assuming you're going on the same assumptions the rest of us are (that while I can't prove anything out there exists I'll just get busy extropatating and tryingto work out a model that describes reality with predictable results) you have the option to decide where you want to point your arrow.
I actually had a really bad trip a few months ago which resulted in a several hour long, ego-death horror-show. I spent most of the night vacillating between being punched out of existence but perceiving the universe without me in it, being dead, being alive but probably insane, and a few other scenarios that I can't quite explain in words. The only way I could talk myself down was to convince myself that whatever reality is, it doesn't make any difference as all I could do was respond to my environment such as I perceived it. The problem is that from a rational point of view, I know that there is almost definitely a physical reality, whether this happens to be it or not. And that reality must contain conscious life of some kind, because I know that I myself and conscious. And sooner or later, either the apocalyptic scenario I described earlier will happen in the reality I am perceiving (if it is real), or it will happen within whatever reality is creating the artifice within which I exist. Either way, the annihilation seems inevitable, and I'm right back to nihilism again.

So yeah, I work on the assumption that things that seem real are real. But that doesn't really help :lol:

reggie1979
Posts: 472
Joined: 11 Apr 2019

Post 23 Apr 2019

Well, consider this. In my area we now don't have fog like we used to. The cause? Cleaner air. The thermal inversion in the winter is different now than it used to be because all the solar and better farming techniques (as well as greener/cleaner cars and people putting in more energy efficient appliances/windows/etc) has reduced smog and emissions.

From what I've been told, even LA is better than it's ever been but I don't live there so I don't know.

Some states are just not conscious and thus have problems. I'm no expert other that what is happening in my area which are changing all the time.

User avatar
Boombastix
Posts: 602
Joined: 18 May 2018
Location: Bay Area, CA

Post 24 Apr 2019

reggie1979 wrote:
23 Apr 2019
Well, consider this. In my area we now don't have fog like we used to. The cause? Cleaner air. The thermal inversion in the winter is different now than it used to be because all the solar and better farming techniques (as well as greener/cleaner cars and people putting in more energy efficient appliances/windows/etc) has reduced smog and emissions.

From what I've been told, even LA is better than it's ever been but I don't live there so I don't know.

Some states are just not conscious and thus have problems. I'm no expert other that what is happening in my area which are changing all the time.
I don't know the specifics about Tahoe, but in the New England area they also see more snow. It is due to the gulf water being warmer and sending more humidity into the air (sky). It moves north until it hits cold air high up in the sky and dumps. So more snow in New England is due to the warming of the gulf (part of global warming). Sometimes things are a bit more complex as weather conditions in remote areas can affect you locally.
10% off at Waves with link: https://www.waves.com/r/6gh2b0
Disclaimer - I get 10% as well.

reggie1979
Posts: 472
Joined: 11 Apr 2019

Post 24 Apr 2019

yeah, that just seems to be one of our great mysteries. This does that, that does this, it's not necessarily normal, etc.

  • Information
  • Who is online

    Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot] and 0 guests