This is how you push DAW envelope - Bitwig 3

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fotizimo
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Post 17 Jan 2019

Honestly,

I am just starting out with Bitwig, and there are some hurdles I am crossing to understand how things work, but for someone who is working from a semi-mobile and highly touch-friendly device like a Surface Pro, Bitwig is incredibly useful to me, and to which I just don't think Reason will ever be able to migrate to. I dream of using Reason on my device without having to be physically tied to a computer keyboard and mouse, and with Reason's tiny knobs, and total lack of touch-friendly navigation options, I do not imagine I will ever be able to. I guess Reason Compact on IOS is going to be the PH solution to that problem, but I have to admit, what Bitwig is doing makes a whole lot more sense to me and my workflows. And unless PH really throws some juice behind Reason Compact, that isn't going to make the slightest hint of a dent in the demographic I am talking about.

There are some really interesting and innovative things going on with the Bitwig development team, that I sometimes wish the PH team would be doing. If they allow third-party creation of grid elements within the Bitwig Grid, then I can really see that being a winning combination. My workflow will probably dictate a migration away from Reason, and towards what I see in BW3, in the next year or so. I just am sad that I can't take my REs with me.
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Wook
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Post 17 Jan 2019

I got the 8-track version with my midi controller. It's an amazing playground. Reason feels so old and tired compared to BW. I can't count how many times I've said to myself "I wish Reason could do this" workflow wise. In Bitwig, it just exists. It's a very cleverly laid out thing. Modulation options are so easy to use. Browser is ingenious and sequencer is a dream. What's keeping me from completely leaving Reason is the stupid amount of money I've thrown on it and the habit, I guess. I wish we could sell our rack extensions. That's also one of the things I really dislike about Propellerheads.

If only my Push 2 would have factory integration with Bitwig.

A really long video but worth it if you wanna see how BW works.

   

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Oquasec
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Post 17 Jan 2019

Bitwig seems fairly cheap for what it is tbh.
I would put it with FL Studio in terms of workflow.

Reason's key feature is the rack. anything else you might as well just learn rewire for.
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fotizimo
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Post 18 Jan 2019

Oquasec wrote:
17 Jan 2019
Bitwig seems fairly cheap for what it is tbh.
I would put it with FL Studio in terms of workflow.

Reason's key feature is the rack. anything else you might as well just learn rewire for.
Net-new, both Reason and Bitwig run a new user about the same (~$400) with the obvious bonus that a Bitwig user is not locked into an environment. I agree Reason's key feature is the rack.... until you want to be semi-mobile, and then find that same rack absolutely debilitating to use with touch controls.

I just dont see evolution with PH's recent strategies. Maybe slow and steady will win the race, but if the recent update to Reason Compact shows me anything, PH is taking a really slow approach to their future.
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Oquasec
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Post 18 Jan 2019

Yes, propellerhead & Protools have the same way of doing things in terms of what they add and focus on for their system.
Nothing's perfect, I can rewire and keep it movin.
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fotizimo
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Post 18 Jan 2019

Oquasec wrote:
18 Jan 2019
Nothing's perfect, I can rewire and keep it movin.
Well, for the first time in my DAW journey, I may be joining you in utilizing ReWire as a common connectivity option. I have only ever used it once, and that was to test what everyone was going on about. Watching these BW3 videos, I can really start to see some of what I have been visualizing in my head.
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cgijoe
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Post 18 Jan 2019

fotizimo wrote:
18 Jan 2019
Oquasec wrote:
18 Jan 2019
Nothing's perfect, I can rewire and keep it movin.
Well, for the first time in my DAW journey, I may be joining you in utilizing ReWire as a common connectivity option. I have only ever used it once, and that was to test what everyone was going on about. Watching these BW3 videos, I can really start to see some of what I have been visualizing in my head.
I thought about this a lot over the past few years. Unfortunately Bitwig doesn't support and doesn't plan on supporting ReWire - so it's a no go for me. I love my Reason and RE synths too much to scrap it all and recollect/rebuild my patches from scratch.

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Oquasec
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Post 18 Jan 2019

Bitwig doesn't what? ok, maybe in later versions it will. till then I guess Trusty fl studio will do the job.
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Wook
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Post 18 Jan 2019

There has been quite a demand for Rewire in Bitwig. They said it's not a priority but it's not excluded. One of the reasons it doesn't have Rewire is because it also works on Linux. There is a Rewire VST but I've never tried it and don't know how elegant it is.
   

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Wobbleburger
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Post 18 Jan 2019

dioxide wrote:
16 Jan 2019
Looks good! The slogan should be "Bitwig 3: Say Hello to endless possibilities. And Goodbye to finishing any actual music."

I joke of course, but you get my point ;)
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chimp_spanner
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Post 18 Jan 2019

Weeeell I dunno about pushing the envelope. More like riding the modular synthesis hype train. Choo chooooooo.

Which, btw, I have absolutely no problem with. Everything modular. All the time. Let's do this.
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EdGrip
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Post 19 Jan 2019

Wook wrote:
17 Jan 2019
What's keeping me from completely leaving Reason is the stupid amount of money I've thrown on it...
This is a very bad reason to stick with anything - the fallacy of sunk costs. You need to let it go. Remember, you're not losing Reason - it's still there, any time you want to use it for any purpose. It's just having a new program to play with, to help you think in different ways. Remember people used to use Reason just for the rack - that's why Props made Rewire.

Live has Rewire. No Rewire in Bitwig, though people say using JACK for audio and MIDI interconnects is just as easy once you get used to it. I'm already very used to using VoiceMeeter to sample audio, so I'm halfway there. One day I'll get either Live or Bitwig - I tend towards Live because it's such a standard.

The node-based interface already common in other software could be a way forward for Props if/when the rack starts holding them back - hit Alt+Tab to switch to a node based view of the rack, show connection clusters by device etc.

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Oquasec
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Post 19 Jan 2019

Mhm back in the day people did (Still do) use Reason just for the rackmount.
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guitfnky
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Post 19 Jan 2019

selig wrote:
16 Jan 2019
guitfnky wrote:
16 Jan 2019


that sounds amazing...I’d heard Reaktor mentioned hundreds of times, but had a drastically incorrect idea of what it actually was (I always assumed it was a sampler 😳).

curious how that works; do you use Reaktor as a sort of proof of concept for the Rack Extension, and then develop that using the RE SDK?
I build a complete working model of the RE in Reaktor, short of creating the exact front panel UI and custom displays, then my co-dev (Pitchblende) comes in and cleans up my messes (!) to create a more organized layout, and basically get's to know the signal flow. Then he translates my model into C++ code, and I get to work building the UI. But the prototype sounds exactly the same as the final version, and in fact I test the C++ builds against the model to make sure everything has translated correctly. Everything is done in "Core" to allow total control over the results.

I find node based (I used to call it "object oriented") programming totally easy to understand, and lines of code just look like random characters to me. That's probably why I enjoy other node based apps like Divinci Resolve and Fusion. ;)
one more question for you on this, and then I'll stop interrupting so the thread can stay on topic... ;)

now that I have a basic conceptual understanding of what you mean by building everything in Core, are you saying that's where you start...you're using Primary to hook necessary components together, but building all of the fundamentals in Core?

it's really an academic question for me, at this point, since I'm still a long way off from touching the Core side myself. just curious.

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antic604
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Post 19 Jan 2019

m.arthur wrote:
17 Jan 2019
how is an alternate, proprietary version of Reaktor stuck inside a DAW "pushing the DAW envelope?"

it's a serious question, per the subject of the thread.

i'ts neat, yes. but it's not pushing the envelope in any way that I can see, even for a DAW, because these are still just individual, independent units. It's a fun modular playground inside each unit, sure; but we have that with VCV, Reaktor and Reaktor Blocks, Softube Modular, even Complex-1 has a bunch of the stuff this little video shows. What's disappointing is that each modular grid is still just one single unit treated like any other instrument or effect unit inside Bitwig. Sorry, but that's a far, far cry from the "fully modular DAW" that bitwig was originally claiming it would become....
Ok, maybe I went a bit too far with the title, but one thing Bitwig always gets right is workflow. There are DAWs - Reason included - that have pretty advanced modulation capabilities, but after trying Bitwig's take on the subject every other suddenly pales in comparison: it's super fast, intuitive and encourages experimenting. Reason, in contrast, requires meticulous planning ahead, because re-cabling complex patch can be a nightmare, especially if numerous splitters/mergers are involved.

So, what I'm getting at is that The Grid looks really intuitive and breeze to work with. A bit like going from Softube Modular to Voltage Modular.

Regarding the "fully modular DAW" - I believe they never promised exactly that. Actually even in early demos they were describing it as ability to edit devices:



And I don't really know why would you want a "fully modular DAW"? What would you do with it? What would it let you do that Bitwig - or Reason, or Live for that matter - don't allow you to do?
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antic604
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Post 19 Jan 2019

Wook wrote:
17 Jan 2019
If only my Push 2 would have factory integration with Bitwig.
It's a 3rd party solution, but endorsed by Bitwig as Moss (the developer behind this) was showcasing this on Bitwig's behalf on some event. It does some things that even Live doesn't:

https://github.com/git-moss/DrivenByMos ... ush-I-&-II

:)
Last edited by antic604 on 19 Jan 2019, edited 1 time in total.
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antic604
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Post 19 Jan 2019

cgijoe wrote:
18 Jan 2019
I thought about this a lot over the past few years. Unfortunately Bitwig doesn't support and doesn't plan on supporting ReWire - so it's a no go for me. I love my Reason and RE synths too much to scrap it all and recollect/rebuild my patches from scratch.
Wook wrote:
18 Jan 2019
There has been quite a demand for Rewire in Bitwig. They said it's not a priority but it's not excluded. One of the reasons it doesn't have Rewire is because it also works on Linux. There is a Rewire VST but I've never tried it and don't know how elegant it is.
I hear this works well to help with that particular issue :)
http://energy-xt.com/rewire-vst.html
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RustyShakleforde
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Post 19 Jan 2019

I hear this works well to help with that particular issue :)
http://energy-xt.com/rewire-vst.html
[/quote]

Rewire VST works really well. The only thing I was disapointed with was that you cant use VSTs when using it. Is rewire the same?.. Just meant a bunch of my combinator patches cant be used, but then it made me use stock and re's, which is fine. I have just been using the demo (of rewire vst) but it works well in bitwig and maschine, so will prob buy it at some point soon. Been waiting on it to go on sale but it never seems too.

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antic604
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Post 19 Jan 2019

RustyShakleforde wrote:
19 Jan 2019
The only thing I was disapointed with was that you cant use VSTs when using it. Is rewire the same?...
Yes, you can't use VSTs in Reason when rewired (if that's what you're asking for).
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xylyx
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Post 20 Jan 2019

Although it isn't actually a shortcoming of the rewire protocol because [the sadly abandoned] Project5 would still host VSTs when it was rewired into another host. Most other apps, including Reason, don't work this way for some reason.

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Reasonable man
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Post 24 Jan 2019

Not familiar with Bitwig just wondering if there is a way way to 'send notes to track' for midi editing with any of this moduular stuff in the video or is it just bounce to audio type stuff

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antic604
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Post 24 Jan 2019

Reasonable man wrote:
24 Jan 2019
Not familiar with Bitwig just wondering if there is a way way to 'send notes to track' for midi editing with any of this moduular stuff in the video or is it just bounce to audio type stuff
It's too early to tell - they're talking about Mono/Poly Grid (instruments) and FX Grid (effects, I'm assuming audio effects) but looking at the screens it's justified to also expect Note/MIDI FX. We already have them in Bitwig, you can send and receive notes wherever so even if not in 3.0, it will appear sometime later in 3.x
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BRIGGS
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Post 25 Jan 2019


kitekrazy
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Post 27 Jan 2019

I stopped doing oohs and ahs for every new DAW feature because this is how you end up with 12 DAWs. I don't have to put another dime in FL or Bandlab. I will keep up with Reason, Reaper, Live (no more suite for me, FL Studio.

I've heard you have to pay a yearly fee to keep Bitwig up to date. Not a fan.

I think most experienced DAW users who make money off their work are not as entertained with features than familiar workflow.

EdGrip
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Post 29 Jan 2019

Bitwig's upgrade system is fine - just a tad unusual.
You pay a fee which will get you all upgrades for 12 months from that point.
If you don't pay, you stay where you are, no upgrades. Your perpetual license for your current version continues to work.

Because you can choose to pay this upgrade fee whenever you like, (or not, if you don't need the new features and want to skip a version or three), I don't see how this is any different to the "Buy an upgrade license for DAW version 10" model that we're all used to.

Another way to look at it is "Exactly the same as DAW upgrades have always worked, but with a 12 month grace period rather than the typical 1 month-ish."

Another way to look at it is "you have to pay a roughly yearly fee to keep most DAWs up to date, apart from FL Studio."

This upgrade price - £138 - is more expensive than a Reason upgrade, but about the same as many other DAWs.

I too was skeptical at first because it has the whiff of subscription about it - and we all know subscription models can get in the sea. But it's not, in any way.

Hope this helps!

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