This is how you push DAW envelope - Bitwig 3

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antic604
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Post 16 Jan 2019

Bitwig 2 // Reason 10 // Cubase 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
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Loque
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Post 16 Jan 2019

Looks like they all gonna go more modular and more cables...
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antic604
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Post 16 Jan 2019

Loque wrote:
16 Jan 2019
Looks like they all gonna go more modular and more cables...
Yup. It's basically a Reaktor/VCV/SM/VM within a DAW, allowing you to create your own mono/poly synth and FX, that you can further use in your devices chain.

Fun times ahead! :mrgreen:
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ScuzzyEye
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Post 16 Jan 2019

I was wondering when a DAW would incorporate nodes. Just about all other creative tools now have some node-based design system. This looks basically like Max for Live, taken to the logical conclusion; removing all the coding.

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MannequinRaces
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Post 16 Jan 2019

I LOVE Reason and will ‘probably’ never use another DAW but the rack paradigm is getting long in the tooth. In the future I think it will box Propellerhead into a corner where innovation will be hard to come by. I hope I’m wrong.

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selig
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Post 16 Jan 2019

Interestingly, looking a lot like some iPad apps (specifically thinking Audulus here), which I was wondering when the DAW world would embrace.

What’s still not clear is how isolated/sandboxes these layout will be from each other. I read they can be nested for example, but as they are 4x oversampled, the interconnections between multiple “grids” will not be.

So it’s looking more like an evolution than a revolution IMO, with stereo, polyphony, and total modularity inside the “sandbox” being supported, again looking a lot like some of the cooler iPad apps of recent years.

Also what’s not clear is whether there is 3rd party support for additional modules (not likely to support different UIs or looks though), which would totally open up the format, though it would still be restricted to the Bigwig universe.

Still waiting for a “MIDI” like interchange format agreement among software developers supporting a total modular ecosystem so developers would have a simpler way of creating tools that would be universally available to any DAW user. Yea, I’m dreaming here…


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guitfnky
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Post 16 Jan 2019

looks interesting. the video doesn’t do a very good job of demonstrating the concept’s usefulness from a practical standpoint though, really. unless practically, you’re just interested in making weird/unexpected sounds. 🤔

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BRIGGS
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Post 16 Jan 2019

Someone, definitely, needs to make a Tron skin for this!

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Oquasec
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Post 16 Jan 2019

Copped Bitwig last year so this is great news
Producer/Sound Designer.
Anything works.

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antic604
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Post 16 Jan 2019

selig wrote:
16 Jan 2019
What’s still not clear is how isolated/sandboxes these layout will be from each other. I read they can be nested for example, but as they are 4x oversampled, the interconnections between multiple “grids” will not be
Think of it like an environment with which you'll create devices: synths, MIDI & audio effects. So - in Reason speak - a way to build Europa or Leveler. Bulit devices are separate from each other, but like anything in Bitwig they can be chained or - indeed - nested. The Grid doesn't distinguish between audio or CV, so the device can output signal (technically audio, but more in a LFO/CV range) that can be further captured by Audio Rate modulator to modulate other parameters down the devices chain. It's *just* a hugely flexible device builder, sort of like using NI Reaktor in Reason.

If you're looking for full-on modular DAW, try Usine. It's properly bonkers :)
selig wrote:
16 Jan 2019
Also what’s not clear is whether there is 3rd party support for additional modules (not likely to support different UIs or looks though), which would totally open up the format, though it would still be restricted to the Bigwig universe.
No. This is the environment Bitwig developers built all the native devices with and - as promised - they're opening it now for everyone to use. 3rd party stuff will be the devices - instruments, MIDI & audio effects - created by users using The Grid. And I guess only them will be allowed to add new modules to The Grid, to maintain compatibility.
selig wrote:
16 Jan 2019
Still waiting for a “MIDI” like interchange format agreement among software developers supporting a total modular ecosystem so developers would have a simpler way of creating tools that would be universally available to any DAW user. Yea, I’m dreaming here…
Yeah, that would be nice! Few months ago there were some talks about ABleton & others joining some consortium to work out the "future of MIDI" so maybe that's it?
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Timmy Crowne
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Post 16 Jan 2019

Wow. That’s what I’ve always wanted in Reason: a true device builder.

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selig
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Post 16 Jan 2019

Timmy Crowne wrote:Wow. That’s what I’ve always wanted in Reason: a true device builder.
For now there’s Reaktor, which works great in Reason and can build devices that can be shared cross platform (and is a mature device building environment with lots of users/support). You have lots of control over the UI by adding your own knobs/panels too!

I’ve been using Reaktor to develop my REs for years now - not sure Bitwig’s version would work well for that level of development (if that’s important to you).

Will be interesting to see this upon release - keeping an eye out for more videos. :)



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dioxide
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Post 16 Jan 2019

Looks good! The slogan should be "Bitwig 3: Say Hello to endless possibilities. And Goodbye to finishing any actual music."

I joke of course, but you get my point ;)

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QVprod
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Post 16 Jan 2019

It's Reaktor with a sequencer.

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guitfnky
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Post 16 Jan 2019

selig wrote:
16 Jan 2019
Timmy Crowne wrote:Wow. That’s what I’ve always wanted in Reason: a true device builder.
For now there’s Reaktor, which works great in Reason and can build devices that can be shared cross platform (and is a mature device building environment with lots of users/support). You have lots of control over the UI by adding your own knobs/panels too!

I’ve been using Reaktor to develop my REs for years now - not sure Bitwig’s version would work well for that level of development (if that’s important to you).

Will be interesting to see this upon release - keeping an eye out for more videos. :)



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that sounds amazing...I’d heard Reaktor mentioned hundreds of times, but had a drastically incorrect idea of what it actually was (I always assumed it was a sampler 😳).

curious how that works; do you use Reaktor as a sort of proof of concept for the Rack Extension, and then develop that using the RE SDK?

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RustyShakleforde
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Post 16 Jan 2019

I had bitwig since v1. Always wanted to upgrade it but with Reasons recent developments I went with that, as it is my main DAW.

I mess around with bitwig a lot though and feel that if Props made the Reason sequencer a little like Bitwigs it would raise Reasons game so much. Bitwigs sequencer is excellent, so fast and snappy.

Anyway, i cracked and updated BW a few weeks ago as found upgrade in a sale. It was well worth it, BW is amazing and the modulators etc are brilliantly executed. I did miss reason after a few days of sussing out my upgrade, and found myself back with it since. I just love Reason and have been using it since v1 or 2, so at home with it.

Was really cool tonight though when i went on the site at work and seen the announcement of BW3. I have Reaktor 5 and though i understand the concepts just couldnt get into it. I have held off upgrading it as i was happy making combinators in reason, but the Grid in BW looks amazing. Cant wait and happy ive jumped from v1.6 to 3 (soon) for only £100.

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jam-s
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Post 16 Jan 2019

ScuzzyEye wrote:
16 Jan 2019
I was wondering when a DAW would incorporate nodes. Just about all other creative tools now have some node-based design system. This looks basically like Max for Live, taken to the logical conclusion; removing all the coding.
Jeskola Buzz was node based 20 years ago and did not need coding from the user. Not sure if you would count it to be a DAW, but it was pretty advanced for its time.
If you're in Aachen, come and visit us at the Voidspace.

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selig
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Post 16 Jan 2019

guitfnky wrote:
16 Jan 2019
selig wrote:
16 Jan 2019


For now there’s Reaktor, which works great in Reason and can build devices that can be shared cross platform (and is a mature device building environment with lots of users/support). You have lots of control over the UI by adding your own knobs/panels too!

I’ve been using Reaktor to develop my REs for years now - not sure Bitwig’s version would work well for that level of development (if that’s important to you).

Will be interesting to see this upon release - keeping an eye out for more videos. :)



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that sounds amazing...I’d heard Reaktor mentioned hundreds of times, but had a drastically incorrect idea of what it actually was (I always assumed it was a sampler 😳).

curious how that works; do you use Reaktor as a sort of proof of concept for the Rack Extension, and then develop that using the RE SDK?
I build a complete working model of the RE in Reaktor, short of creating the exact front panel UI and custom displays, then my co-dev (Pitchblende) comes in and cleans up my messes (!) to create a more organized layout, and basically get's to know the signal flow. Then he translates my model into C++ code, and I get to work building the UI. But the prototype sounds exactly the same as the final version, and in fact I test the C++ builds against the model to make sure everything has translated correctly. Everything is done in "Core" to allow total control over the results.

I find node based (I used to call it "object oriented") programming totally easy to understand, and lines of code just look like random characters to me. That's probably why I enjoy other node based apps like Divinci Resolve and Fusion. ;)
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guitfnky
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Post 16 Jan 2019

selig wrote:
16 Jan 2019

I build a complete working model of the RE in Reaktor, short of creating the exact front panel UI and custom displays, then my co-dev (Pitchblende) comes in and cleans up my messes (!) to create a more organized layout, and basically get's to know the signal flow. Then he translates my model into C++ code, and I get to work building the UI. But the prototype sounds exactly the same as the final version, and in fact I test the C++ builds against the model to make sure everything has translated correctly. Everything is done in "Core" to allow total control over the results.

I find node based (I used to call it "object oriented") programming totally easy to understand, and lines of code just look like random characters to me. That's probably why I enjoy other node based apps like Divinci Resolve and Fusion. ;)
very cool. I might have to give Reaktor a shot. I’ve learned a (very) little bit of programming in a couple of languages, and it’s a blast, but hard to stay on top of for someone with my attention span. being a very visually-oriented tinkerer (part of why I love Reason so much), I wonder if a tool like this might be better suited for me.

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O1B
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Post 17 Jan 2019

Thank you for this.

hmmm....
Image
RustyShakleforde wrote:
16 Jan 2019
I had bitwig since v1. Always wanted to upgrade it but with Reasons recent developments I went with that, as it is my main DAW.

I mess around with bitwig a lot though and feel that if Props made the Reason sequencer a little like Bitwigs it would raise Reasons game so much. Bitwigs sequencer is excellent, so fast and snappy.

Anyway, i cracked and updated BW a few weeks ago as found upgrade in a sale. It was well worth it, BW is amazing and the modulators etc are brilliantly executed. I did miss reason after a few days of sussing out my upgrade, and found myself back with it since. I just love Reason and have been using it since v1 or 2, so at home with it.

Was really cool tonight though when i went on the site at work and seen the announcement of BW3. I have Reaktor 5 and though i understand the concepts just couldnt get into it. I have held off upgrading it as i was happy making combinators in reason, but the Grid in BW looks amazing. Cant wait and happy ive jumped from v1.6 to 3 (soon) for only £100.

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selig
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Post 17 Jan 2019

guitfnky wrote: very cool. I might have to give Reaktor a shot. I’ve learned a (very) little bit of programming in a couple of languages, and it’s a blast, but hard to stay on top of for someone with my attention span. being a very visually-oriented tinkerer (part of why I love Reason so much), I wonder if a tool like this might be better suited for me.
You can start easy, just changing the range of an LFO in a Reaktor synth, for example, or adding a second oscillator etc. Being able to make even simple mods to existing instruments or FX alone opens up powerful possibilities, and allows you to dip your toes into the world of Reaktor.

I would image the same would apply for BW3’s new features as well, though I haven’t seen if there is the equivalent of a “front panel” in BW3.


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antic604
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Post 17 Jan 2019

selig wrote:
17 Jan 2019
I would image the same would apply for BW3’s new features as well, though I haven’t seen if there is the equivalent of a “front panel” in BW3.
Doesn't seem to be available at least for v3.0

Although it's already one of the most requested features, 4-5 months ahead of it's release :D
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guitfnky
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Post 17 Jan 2019

selig wrote:
17 Jan 2019
guitfnky wrote: very cool. I might have to give Reaktor a shot. I’ve learned a (very) little bit of programming in a couple of languages, and it’s a blast, but hard to stay on top of for someone with my attention span. being a very visually-oriented tinkerer (part of why I love Reason so much), I wonder if a tool like this might be better suited for me.
You can start easy, just changing the range of an LFO in a Reaktor synth, for example, or adding a second oscillator etc. Being able to make even simple mods to existing instruments or FX alone opens up powerful possibilities, and allows you to dip your toes into the world of Reaktor.

I would image the same would apply for BW3’s new features as well, though I haven’t seen if there is the equivalent of a “front panel” in BW3.


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glad you mentioned this, and thanks for the responses...I downloaded the demo this morning and after watching a ten-minute 'basics' video I already made my first synth. it's fairly intuitive, but there's a ton to learn, obviously. most importantly, it's fun, and immediate (i.e. I don't have to learn in-depth coding for a year or two just to get off the ground). this is going to be fun... :D

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EnochLight
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Post 17 Jan 2019

Curious... Bitwig 2.5 literally just went into beta testing about a month ago with a teaser video. And now they're teasing 3.0??! If Propellerhead did this, there would be users with burning pitchforks standing outside their doors. :cool:
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m.arthur
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Post 17 Jan 2019

how is an alternate, proprietary version of Reaktor stuck inside a DAW "pushing the DAW envelope?"

it's a serious question, per the subject of the thread.

i'ts neat, yes. but it's not pushing the envelope in any way that I can see, even for a DAW, because these are still just individual, independent units. It's a fun modular playground inside each unit, sure; but we have that with VCV, Reaktor and Reaktor Blocks, Softube Modular, even Complex-1 has a bunch of the stuff this little video shows. What's disappointing is that each modular grid is still just one single unit treated like any other instrument or effect unit inside Bitwig. Sorry, but that's a far, far cry from the "fully modular DAW" that bitwig was originally claiming it would become....

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