Goodbye Hydlide?

[botnotbot]

If theyre are core issues that are going to be ignored then thats not helping the company or any of the useres... the thing is most of us dont know what the real problem is or wheather it can and will be addressed (maybye the very core problem is being slowly addressed as we speak) but people burying their heads in the sand and pretending there is no performane issiue isn't gonna get anything done is it?

The point is that they are working on it and have announced that it will be a free upgrade during the 10.x cycle.

[stephensmattlee]

A few days ago I found myself going back to the very earliest videos on Props YouTube page dating right back to Reason 3, more out of curiosity than anything else as a reminder to see how much has changed.

Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely love Reason and have always found its approach to making music the most inspiring to me personally, but I do feel that the program definitely stagnated a fair bit in recent years development-wise.

Maybe when Reason first came along it was far more unique as the whole concept of having all your hardware studio gear in one single program on a computer was a new concept to a lot of producers at the time, where as today the competition is a lot more stronger and making music in the box tends to be the norm.

In my head I do see a future version of Reason where the whole thing has had a massive makeover, the look of the program is more “photo realistic” and visually similar to the look of Softubes/Slate plugins, the features of the old native devices have been given a huge upgrade in terms of sound and features, and of course not to mention (and the one biggest problem Props have at the moment) is having the VST performance on par with the competition. All of this I know is far more easy to say than actually implement so I do respect that it’s by no means an easy thing for the Props to do.

For me when Reason came along it was very unique and a lot of big names were using the program and helping the hype grow. Fast forward 10 years where Propellerheads ‘artist’ videos have almost faded away entirely. It seems like Ableton now has that crown where so many ‘electronic’ producers use the software as their main DAW as it has the more unique workflow for today’s audience.
Don’t get me wrong, for me I still feel Reason is the most inspiring daw out there. Props just have a hugely monumental task ahead to try and take Reason into the future rather than being stuck as if it’s still 2008.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[QVprod]

Google keywords aren't a good way to display Propellerhead's success.

Why aren't they exactly? Because it doesn't fit in with how you wish things were?

Simply changing the search term to "Reason 10" gave me the opposite result.

You are searching for a specific release which only exists from a given point in time. Of course there will be a spike, because hardly anyone would have searched for it before nine was released. 'Propellerhead Reason' is a constant term.

Keywords are very specific. My point was changing one word brought a different result. Great for figuring out what keywords to use for marketing, not so accurate a view of a company's success. Searches don't equal purchases especially in the day and age where people are clicking links on Facebook and Instagram ads. For fun, I put in Pro Tools and Cubase and their searches are on the decline as well. Are you suggesting Steinberg and AVID are failing as well?

That aside, I don't think anyone is "stuck" using Reason because of Rack Extensions. If you're that upset with the product you'd simply switch to a different platform as Hylide is considering doing. Or... as many do, simply buy another DAW that excels at what Reason doesn't and use them interchangeably. Good VSTs aren't necessarily all that expensive, especially with stores like PluginBoutique.

If someone has made a large investment in Rack extensions in terms of time and money, then they will obviously find it far harder to move to another platform then if they had invested their time money in VSTs which do not lock you in to a particular platform.

But regardless, if you're truly unsatisfied you move on. The whole purpose of this video Hylide made was about that. Again, plenty of quality free and cheap plugins out there to build your tools back up.

[jlgrimes]

I can definitely see the frustration with spending $$$$ on a high end multi core CPU thinking it would reduce your DSP usage and it doesn't especially if it is working great in other DAWS.

He wasn't really specific so I am not 100% sure on what issues he was having.

IMO, Reason seemed to make some improvements. My performance seems much better on Mac now. It used to be horrid.

In some cases Reason actually works better than Live (with certain VSTs) but that said, Reason generally goes to popping and clicking much earlier than Live and Live does have Track Freeze which normally resolves any DSP issues.

[OverneathTheSkyBridg]

I am not quite sure what he's on about with the EULA. Not that I've actually read it or anything, but he's talking like he's under some kind of gag order, which sounds more like an NDA or something you agree to when beta testing, not something that would prevent you from speaking about bugs you've found with the shipping version.

The gag order part is Mattias showing up at his house and choking him with his big beard lol. But seriously he just sounds bitter.

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

[Wobbleburger]

Haha Hydlide loves Reason too much to leave it over that

That's what I think too

[Wobbleburger]

So much doom and gloom...

I've only been using Reason for a year but it has been an absolute blast. As a relatively new user, Props haven't burned up any good faith on my part. On the contrary, each of their releases so far (demoed in 9.5, bought at 10 ) has demonstrated that they are more or less on the path I expect/want them to be on.

I can understand for some of you who have been around for years waiting for updates that are blocking on them being in the right place business-wise and especially code-wise, it's been a frustrating experience to say the least.

Just know that not everyone here is stuck on sunk costs and some kind of fannatical devotion to the Pope^W Props. Some of us actually consider this to be a superior option to other VST hosts and sequencers. Considering the generally high quality of the RE marketplace, it offers a lot.

Yes there are upgrades to the Record side that need to happen. Guess what 10.2 contained? Some helpful hints that whatever has been keeping them from investing in hacking on the sequencer has finally been (at least partially) tackled.

The rest that we want (from GUI upgrades to RE/VST performance and MIDI in the rack) are all contingent on an insanely complicated audio engine upgrade.

Audio engines are staggeringly complex and Hydlide demonstrates a great ignorance acting like switching from single-threaded DSP to taking advantage of all cores at all times is a simple process like a compiler flag or a couple minor patches. It takes developer teams years to get this right.

How do I know? Well, let me tell you about some of the DAWs I was using previously.

People act like Studio One has had excellent performance forever, yet in reality their new audio engine didn't arrive fully arrive until 3.5. Logic has had it for a long time, but guess what? Logic can have 16 channels of MIDI assigned and running into it at any given time (you can get more by patching the environment but then if you can't record that MIDI). So there's a sacrifice that was chosen.

Oh and the new engine had bugs and kinks that weren't worked out for half a year or more.

Bitwig has consistently fallen short of their "lots of upgrades with new features" because they have had to rewrite their audio engine at least once, if not more than that. Most recently was the year-long wait for 2.4, which only added the inexcusably-absent idea of actual MIDI channels and not their harebrained excuse of "getting over the past". But prior to that there was a major audio engine replacement in the 1.x era that stalled forward progress for something like 12-18 months.

tl;dr -- Audio engine stuff is complex. Props has new users who are not bitter and disappointed but rather feeling pretty reinforced by Props decisions.

PS. I used to watch Hydlide but after a while I just couldn't handle his voice and his attitude. I realized it would bring my mood down, even if I enjoyed what I learned from him. Plus he has some weird "IDGAF if no one watches" flipping to "no one pays attention to me" patterns that you start to notice over time. I still think he's a good dude and part of the inspiration I had for giving Reason a try, in spite of the dated graphical engine.

Really well said, all around!

[landofbits]

dude i just came from renoise only to find this !!!

its hillarious renoise its a software that doesnt see an update from 3 years..reason its lightyears in resources and support in comparison
and people still uses renoise

maybe your projects are way to complicated ..i upgraded my license 2 days ago to 10.2 full from intro
and im running a song with 30 tracks including a lot of vsts like amp sims and cabinets redux vst

and my rig its and i5 7500 8gb ram and a cheap maudio card

so good luck with ableton 800$ software

[MarkTarlton]

my 2 cents.... Hydlide could start using a new daw with the NI stuff now, without burning any bridges because at some point... hopefully before we are dead...reason will be able to run more efficiently, along with the workflow we are so familiar using. that being said, I personally felt the exact same way a while ago, I migrated slowly, it was extremely rewarding, I gained a lot of new ideas and ways of working that opened up a new world of music. I still use reason, but it's not even near the main workhorse it used to be for me starting with reason 2.0... it's a challenge at first because you will have to spend time learning how to use the new tools, but everyday makes the process that much easier and fun!

once the patch and optimization is released we can all praise or batch about it

[NekujaK]

When the Props chose to support VSTs in Reason, they moved into a whole new league where Reason was automatically held to a higher set of standards. Prior to VST support, Reason had the luxury of being a self-contained proprietary system accountable only to its own self-made benchmarks. But VST support instantly exposed Reason to direct comparisons with all other DAWs, and unfortunately, VST-related performance turned out to be a major weakness for Reason (I wonder if the Props saw that coming - probably not).

Those who are happy to stay within the confines of Reason's proprietary world and only use REs, are pretty much unaffected. But those of us who embrace VSTs, encounter Reason's performance limitations all too often, and are increasingly forced to ask how much longer must we endure trying to make music under these restrictive circumstances.

But it's not only VST support. Other DAWs also offer a wealth of workflow features that are conspicuously missing from Reason, and as the comparisons to these DAWs go deeper, Reason begins to look weaker and weaker.

When I started using Reason back on 2.5, Reason frequently came under attack for having "that Reason sound" and many professional music makers dismissed Reason as a "toy". A lot of us defended Reason through the years, and by the time Reason 7 arrived, our loyalty paid off as Reason came into its own as a robust music-making tool.

But now once again, it feels like Reason is on the defensive. I'm sure there've been moments when the Props wished they'd never supported VSTs, but that Pandora's box is open and the Props must deal with it, or risk Reason retreating back to being a niche product used only by a few diehard fans.

Reason is an amazing app and it's come a long way over the years, but as great as it is, there's actually a lot at stake here for the Props, IMHO. If they can't get Reason to compare favorably against other DAWs, they will have lost their chance to significantly expand their user base and run the risk of losing existing users.

[EdGrip]

The sunk costs thing never really makes sense. I've been on the lookout for a second DAW as an alternative thing to explore / think differently, almost since I got Reason! At some point I'll pick up Live, or Bitwig, or Studio One. Many people already have two (or more) DAWs. Buying another DAW doesn't stop Reason being there on the computer for when we're in a Reason mood. It's not a one-or-the-other situation. "I'm thinking of moving to Studio One". Nah, you're thinking of GETTING Studio One as well. You'll end up using whichever one you like best and works best for you.

[VariableX]

I still think Hydlide may be trying to strong arm Propellerheads by pretending to leave to try and get his real issue resolved, which is the page where all his regular web traffic lands, the broken page that lists reason rack extensions that can be ordered to see whats new and on sale. He has been having issues with this page for ages, maybe Props are not maintaining there Web Services that support this page and it is hitting him hard with web traffic?

[moneykube]

there are problems... I have mentioned a few... curious what core info he has.... I remember back to reason 4 with core issues... they were working with apple at the time on the issue that was stated on their site... I complained and they removed the statement that they were working on core issues... hmmmm... sounds familiar

[RobC]

Gadda git'm yewtewb wiewz zamhaw! : )

[mcatalao]

I've seen hidlyde go away before for other reasons though.

I also cannot stand his (drunk hissing) delivery so... Yeah I respect his effort but I feel it will not be the last of it.

As for reason, I stated this before. Despite there is a very big margin to improve, there isn't any performance degradation for recent versions. I can test and prove this comparing reason 8 and reason 10. You have to test the same project with similar condition.

The problem at hand is the use of VSTs that are new technology on reason and very cpu hungry res. But you can even compare the re's if they are R8 compatible.

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[selig]

there are problems... I have mentioned a few... curious what core info he has.... I remember back to reason 4 with core issues... they were working with apple at the time on the issue that was stated on their site... I complained and they removed the statement that they were working on core issues... hmmmm... sounds familiar

Not sure what "core issues" means exactly, but if they were working with Apple it would be "Apple/Reason" issues. Core issues (as I understand it) would affect both platforms…

Also, I don't remember having any issues with Reason 4 (I even wrote a review of Reason 4 and didn't come across any issues), and I use Apple hardware so I would have experienced it I would think (if it was a "core" issue it would likely affect all users, right?).

They more likely removed the statement because they were no longer working on "core issues", not as likely because one user complained…

[Kalm]

A few days ago I found myself going back to the very earliest videos on Props YouTube page dating right back to Reason 3, more out of curiosity than anything else as a reminder to see how much has changed.

Don’t get me wrong, I absolutely love Reason and have always found its approach to making music the most inspiring to me personally, but I do feel that the program definitely stagnated a fair bit in recent years development-wise.

Maybe when Reason first came along it was far more unique as the whole concept of having all your hardware studio gear in one single program on a computer was a new concept to a lot of producers at the time, where as today the competition is a lot more stronger and making music in the box tends to be the norm.

In my head I do see a future version of Reason where the whole thing has had a massive makeover, the look of the program is more “photo realistic” and visually similar to the look of Softubes/Slate plugins, the features of the old native devices have been given a huge upgrade in terms of sound and features, and of course not to mention (and the one biggest problem Props have at the moment) is having the VST performance on par with the competition. All of this I know is far more easy to say than actually implement so I do respect that it’s by no means an easy thing for the Props to do.

For me when Reason came along it was very unique and a lot of big names were using the program and helping the hype grow. Fast forward 10 years where Propellerheads ‘artist’ videos have almost faded away entirely. It seems like Ableton now has that crown where so many ‘electronic’ producers use the software as their main DAW as it has the more unique workflow for today’s audience.
Don’t get me wrong, for me I still feel Reason is the most inspiring daw out there. Props just have a hugely monumental task ahead to try and take Reason into the future rather than being stuck as if it’s still 2008.



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Mutual Sentiments

Currently I take Reason for what it is. I never really looked at what it lacked since the workflow is so much more creative than anything I've used. I've tried Ableton but ITS BACKWARDS. So even if I had a feeling to use it, my workflow will take a complete 180 and I would end up learning an entirely new way to work. For what Reason already has, it does everything. Maybe I'm different cause I never went VST shopping when VSTs were all the rave. I always produced in the box with Reason and Reason only. Every new feature honestly is simply gratitude.

My issue with Props is them seeing the final picture and not the big picture. Sometimes I'm not sure if Props understand the kind of DAW they're working with. This DAW should be neck and neck with Ableton in terms of features and performance. . . so why aren't we there yet?

[Jmax]

The problem I have with this Rant is, he complains about what? Reason not being optimized for his i9????? So is he saying he can't make music the way he wants?

It's a bullshit rant, he just wants attention. I have an i7 with 32gig ram and have not noticed any hiccups with any style of music I'm making.

What's ridiculous is that the performance issues (minus the core optimization) seems to be really with Mac. He is running a new i9.

He'd never leave Reason, we all know that.

[moneykube]

there are problems... I have mentioned a few... curious what core info he has.... I remember back to reason 4 with core issues... they were working with apple at the time on the issue that was stated on their site... I complained and they removed the statement that they were working on core issues... hmmmm... sounds familiar

Not sure what "core issues" means exactly, but if they were working with Apple it would be "Apple/Reason" issues. Core issues (as I understand it) would affect both platforms…

Also, I don't remember having any issues with Reason 4 (I even wrote a review of Reason 4 and didn't come across any issues), and I use Apple hardware so I would have experienced it I would think (if it was a "core" issue it would likely affect all users, right?).

They more likely removed the statement because they were no longer working on "core issues", not as likely because one user complained…

it was awhile ago... only one core of 4 were working on ppc mac and they were working with apple on the issue... motorolla dropped support and apple was blamed... that is how I remember it anyway... it was never solved to my knowledge... but I guess I Could be mistaken,,, I remember the posted statement because it was why I upgraded from 3 to 4... statement was up on site for at least a year... I complained in the old reasonstation forums and was attacked by many people over stating the fact it had not been fixed... shortly after statement was removed from site. timing I guess

[fullforce]

I get why it runs slow... The graphics, the cables, the CV - it's not a normal DAW.

Ehrrr no. This is very very wrong. The graphics haven't changed in any major way since version one. The cables and CV have been there since version 1. All this has absolutely nothing to do with performance. Bad programming and design is what makes performance problematic.

[QVprod]

The problem I have with this Rant is, he complains about what? Reason not being optimized for his i9????? So is he saying he can't make music the way he wants?

It's a bullshit rant, he just wants attention. I have an i7 with 32gig ram and have not noticed any hiccups with any style of music I'm making.

What's ridiculous is that the performance issues (minus the core optimization) seems to be really with Mac. He is running a new i9.

He'd never leave Reason, we all know that.

That's the thing, Yes it's clear that VSTs run heavier in Reason than anywhere else performance issues are really relative to what a person expects I guess, which makes it hard to actually "fix" since it seems to be subjective for the most part. I'm running a 2006 machine as my home rig and get plenty of milage out of Reason 10. Perhaps my needs are simpler, but I definitely have not seen any performance drops.

[BRIGGS]

[antic604]

The problem I have with this Rant is, he complains about what? Reason not being optimized for his i9?????

It is being speculated that Reason has its own way of handing multi-core/thread processing and since i9-s introduced some significant changes to the CPU architecture relating to inter-core communication (a mesh instead of traditional ring bus) then maybe Reason indeed needs to adapt to it? In a video some time ago Hydelide was showing how his new i9 performed worse than his previous i7 CPU, so maybe there is something to it and not only for VSTs, but in general for DSP processing?

[antic604]

I get why it runs slow... The graphics, the cables, the CV - it's not a normal DAW.

Ehrrr no. This is very very wrong. The graphics haven't changed in any major way since version one. The cables and CV have been there since version 1. All this has absolutely nothing to do with performance. Bad programming and design is what makes performance problematic.

Well, he's partly right - Reason renders its GUI using the CPU, so in my case (of relatively low-performance CPU and high-res screen) a DSP meter will usually jump one bar while scrolling the screen with lots of motion in it (rack, mixer) which will causes audible glitches & pops if I'm already at 5 bars.

So yeah, that's one of the topics that needs addressing as well, hopefully while they'll upgrade the GUI to high-DPI screens.

[friday]

Basically I have no problem with the performance of reason, but I am looking forward to an improvement. But what actually makes me angry is the fact that since 10.2 there are not only VST performance problems, but also functional problems (search the forum about valhalla) . They are already confirmed by prop, but on the whole they kept silent.

I can't understand why they do not communicating openly and inform Us weekly about the progress of the next update.

I already teach my 5 year old son that it is no problem to make mistakes if you apologize afterwards and make it good again. It is all about the communication.

Maybe I don't see something, but in my small limited world I just don't understand this behavior.

For the moment i have no other choice, as to set all my projects on hold, and wait until i can be sure that my VST reverb tails will not be silent out in the next update...