Goodbye Hydlide?

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MattiasHG
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Post 31 Oct 2018

Undistraction wrote:
31 Oct 2018
MattiasHG wrote:
31 Oct 2018


No one, including us at PH, is denying there's work to be done on VST performance in Reason. We've said numerous times that we're currently working on this and will release a free update to Reason 10 that will address VST performance. I don't know what more we can say at this point to make that clearer. :geek:
So to be clear, the forthcoming update will have no impact on general performance. Just on the performance of VSTs?
I can't answer that as I don't know all the technical details of the fixes. The primary aim is to improve VST performance.

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Arrant
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Post 31 Oct 2018

MattiasHG wrote:
31 Oct 2018
No one, including us at PH, is denying there's work to be done on VST performance in Reason. We've said numerous times that we're currently working on this and will release a free update to Reason 10 that will address VST performance. I don't know what more we can say at this point to make that clearer. :geek:
Thanks for the reply Mattias. I know the performance update is coming and it's something I'm really looking forward to, I just wanted to put forward some numbers to add some actual facts to a sometimes very subjective discussion. It will be super interesting to perform the same test after the update arrives. I don't expect Reason to match Reaper performance-wise, but to get close enough to compete (40% is not) would be fantastic. There was a thread not too long ago with a poll where people voted on what degree of performance they would accept compared to other DAWs, I think many people expected around 90%, which may be unrealistic.

Also, like many others, this has me wondering about rack extensions and even Reason native devices as well. Unfortunately they can't be tested in another host like VSTs can, but at least we can do before and after tests :geek:

Undistraction
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Post 31 Oct 2018

I can't answer that as I don't know all the technical details of the fixes. The primary aim is to improve VST performance.
So you're not trying to improve performance outside of VSTs, and any improvement will be a happy bi-product of that? Guess that means we won't be getting Freeze. So can we expect another patch after this one that improves general Reason performance?

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chimp_spanner
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Post 31 Oct 2018

Undistraction wrote:
31 Oct 2018
I can't answer that as I don't know all the technical details of the fixes. The primary aim is to improve VST performance.
So you're not trying to improve performance outside of VSTs, and any improvement will be a happy bi-product of that? Guess that means we won't be getting Freeze. So can we expect another patch after this one that improves general Reason performance?
Freeze was never on the cards as far as I know. It was always just about improving Vst performance. Anything else will come in .5 or 11 or whatever!
Enjoy!

http://www.paulortizmusic.com

HP Envy J130ea | i7 4700MQ | 12 GB DDR | 2GB GeForce 740m | Komplete Audio 6

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EnochLight
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Post 31 Oct 2018

Arrant wrote:
31 Oct 2018
That means (judging by this limited test) that Reason is 40% as efficient at running VST instuments as Reaper. Or, putting it differently, Reaper is almost 2.5 times more efficient than Reason. Incredible!

Try it yourself if you don't believe me.
Now I don't want to switch from Reason to Reaper, but it's obvious that this situation makes it very hard for Reason to compete in the DAW market.
Not really. Reaper has traditionally trounced most other DAW in performance as well, yet it has plenty of competition if not simply for the fact that many people find it an uninspiring environment to work in (slowly raises hand). :lol: :puf_bigsmile:
Arrant wrote:
31 Oct 2018
I know the performance update is coming and it's something I'm really looking forward to, I just wanted to put forward some numbers to add some actual facts to a sometimes very subjective discussion. It will be super interesting to perform the same test after the update arrives. I don't expect Reason to match Reaper performance-wise, but to get close enough to compete (40% is not) would be fantastic.
I truly don't expect Reason to even get close to matching Reaper's ability as far as plugin-count is concerned. I think only Logic comes close, and that's Mac-only. But it'll be interesting to see just how close they can get! :puf_smile:
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WongoTheSane
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Post 31 Oct 2018

antic604 wrote:
31 Oct 2018
But help me here - "jumping to conclusions" was in reference to him expecting his license being revoked or to his findings about problems with Reason's code?
I don't understand why everybody jumped to the conclusion that he had found some code smell, or disassembled Reason, or that the EULA bit was referring to internal knowledge of the program. He said he had bought a Surface laptop in his previous video, he showed his brand new Maschine, and said he had tried to program it, and that when he tested it, it "revoked his licence". It is pretty clear to me that the EULA part he was going against is "no two instances of Reason at the same time", he wanted to prove that if he used Maschine on the Surface at the same time as Reason on his PC, he would be locked out of his authorization, which was bound to happen, and did happen. He then mistakenly translated that as "revoked my licence" (just locked out of his account by the automated process, if he had waited a couple of hours for support to lock him out he would have gotten it back) and tried to stir up some shit and tarnish PH's reputation in the process.

That's why he was never clear on any detail: he just locked himself out by being utterly dumb, and thought he could milk precious karma out of it by pretending he was the target of some personal revenge on PH's part. There is no conspiracy, he didn't discover anything about Reason's internals, didn't disassemble shit (like, I mean, do you think you just click on a "Disassemble" button and lo and behold, you can analyze a multi-threading process in a matter of hours??? Even with the actual source code, it would take a year for a professional coder to understand the finer details...), his licence wasn't revoked and even when forced to apologize, he can't really tell the truth because it would make him look utterly dumb.

My two cents, but I'm pretty sure I'm not far from the truth.

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EnochLight
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Post 31 Oct 2018

WongoTheSane wrote:
31 Oct 2018
That's why he was never clear on any detail: he just locked himself out by being utterly dumb, and thought he could milk precious karma out of it by pretending he was the target of some personal revenge on PH's part. There is no conspiracy, he didn't discover anything about Reason's internals, didn't disassemble shit (like, I mean, do you think you just click on a "Disassemble" button and lo and behold, you can analyze a multi-threading process in a matter of hours??? Even with the actual source code, it would take a year for a professional coder to understand the finer details...), his licence wasn't revoked and even when forced to apologize, he can't really tell the truth because it would make him look utterly dumb.

My two cents, but I'm pretty sure I'm not far from the truth.

^^ THIS ^^
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rcbuse
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Post 31 Oct 2018

WongoTheSane wrote:
31 Oct 2018
It is pretty clear to me that the EULA part he was going against is "no two instances of Reason at the same time" ... he would be locked out of his authorization, which was bound to happen, and did happen.
I've done this myself an embarrassing number of times.

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chimp_spanner
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Post 31 Oct 2018

I think there's a really interesting discussion to be had off the back of this, about how we approach modern music making and what our expectations are. I mean, I'm setting aside people who really do have legit technical/performance complaints. That's another thing entirely. And I'd never suggest that we settle for a sub par product just because things are better now than they used to be but...Reason is still wizardry to me. I started making music in the 90s, with General MIDI on an Atari. Sound design was playing it lower/higher. And I grew up watching my parents using pots and pans for percussion, carving notches into a metronome for a guiro, literally splicing tape with a razor blade. Dad's first sampler was an S900; 63 seconds of total recording time at 7.5khz! I don't even know what they would've done with ONE Serum. And here we are trying to load multiples of ten! ;)

I get it, it's 2018. Things are different. And trust me, I have a wish list at least as long as my forearm. But I think the appeal of Reason, for me, has been that nod to the old way of doing it. And I try to let that guide me in my sound and effect choices. Firstly because it's just easier on my eyes/brain, secondly because it's easier on my laptop, and thirdly because - to use a VERY worn out cliche - less is more. It took me ages to realise that most of the songs I loved were actually really simple. I mean try it; listen to your top 10 favourite songs and really focus on how much is going on at any one time, and what it is about that song that makes it special to you. I can't imagine it's anything that can't be done in Reason, even without the optimisation update.

Performance is important. But it's kind of sad to see so much of the conversation right now dominated by "Reason Performance", like the thing that's holding anyone back is being able to load in another 10 Europas. More synths, more problems ;)

Just realised what an old man I sound like. I'm only 34! I *am* wearing slippers and a gown though...Anyway, again, I'm not invalidating any legitimate complaints and I wanna see Reason grow and improve just as much as anyone else. But I do think it's worth getting some perspective. It's a wonderfully unique, fun and creative DAW. And I'm a filthy fanboy. #noshame
Enjoy!

http://www.paulortizmusic.com

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antic604
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Post 31 Oct 2018

Undistraction wrote:
31 Oct 2018
So you're not trying to improve performance outside of VSTs, and any improvement will be a happy bi-product of that?
But is that really an issue?

I don't recall ever seeing a concrete proof / data that Reason's native (+RE) performance has gotten worse since 9.5. I mean a lot of you have been using Reason for years. Can't you play a song or layer some heavy Combinator patch from 5-6 years back in say Reason 7, 8, 9.5 and 10.2 and compare the results (DSP bars, CPU utilisation, number of layers, etc.)? I've a feeling that a lot of this sentiment is simply a result of us having more sophisticated (and thus CPU hungry) devices now and also of higher expectations how we should generate and process the sound because we're all seeing the same tutorials and product reviews on YT and are somehow convinced that adding yet another plugin will finally make us sound "pro" :)

Can anyone provide a definitive, scientific proof of this either way?

EDIT: @chimp_spanner - I typed my reply not seeing yours, but I guess we're hinting at similar issue :)
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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QVprod
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Post 31 Oct 2018

chimp_spanner wrote:
31 Oct 2018
Performance is important. But it's kind of sad to see so much of the conversation right now dominated by "Reason Performance", like the thing that's holding anyone back is being able to load in another 10 Europas. More synths, more problems ;)

Just realised what an old man I sound like. I'm only 34! I *am* wearing slippers and a gown though...Anyway, again, I'm not invalidating any legitimate complaints and I wanna see Reason grow and improve just as much as anyone else. But I do think it's worth getting some perspective. It's a wonderfully unique, fun and creative DAW. And I'm a filthy fanboy. #noshame
Not old at all. I haven't reached 30 just yet and agree. I use Reason on a 2006 quad core Mac Pro (hacked up to Yosemite) and get acceptable performance out of it. Grated it's a pretty capable machine but it's still from 2006. It's hard for me to fathom people with modern machines having terrible performance. I get that there's the odd computer issue here and there and that some REs are very taxing (like ReSpire), but Reason itself? For me it works as great as it always did.

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Noplan
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Post 31 Oct 2018

rcbuse wrote:
31 Oct 2018
WongoTheSane wrote:
31 Oct 2018
It is pretty clear to me that the EULA part he was going against is "no two instances of Reason at the same time" ... he would be locked out of his authorization, which was bound to happen, and did happen.
I've done this myself an embarrassing number of times.
That has happened to me often. In the past, you got an email and the third time the account was temporarily blocked, which happened to me already. Then you had to contact PH and the account was unlocked immediately. It still happens to me today, but meanwhile I do not get any notification anymore. And I can not imagine that they come up with the idea to lock an account forever, under the fact that this account contains a lot of non-transferable products. That would only deter people from buying REs.

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rcbuse
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Post 31 Oct 2018

antic604 wrote:
31 Oct 2018
Undistraction wrote:
31 Oct 2018
So you're not trying to improve performance outside of VSTs, and any improvement will be a happy bi-product of that?
But is that really an issue?
Can anyone provide a definitive, scientific proof of this either way?
There is some wacky stuff going on with the CPUs with more cores. I've personally seen it.

Here is a video of a single instance of Mono/Poly while cycling though various settings:


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antic604
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Post 31 Oct 2018

rcbuse wrote:
31 Oct 2018
There is some wacky stuff going on with the CPUs with more cores. I've personally seen it.

Here is a video of a single instance of Mono/Poly while cycling though various settings:

Thanks, that's really weird but my question is was it different with Reason 9, 8 or 7?

And if it was better in earlier Reason versions, is it something that Props broke or maybe it's a change in CPU architectures that Props have not programmed for?
Reason 10 // Bitwig 2 // Live 10 @ Surface Pro 4 i7 8/256GB
My music: https://soundcloud.com/antic604

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bxbrkrz
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Post 31 Oct 2018


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EnochLight
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Post 31 Oct 2018

chimp_spanner wrote:
31 Oct 2018
Just realised what an old man I sound like. I'm only 34! I *am* wearing slippers and a gown though...
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Not judging one bit. It's all about comfort! :D
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hurricane
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Post 31 Oct 2018

I used to be a fan of Hydlide.

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Micha1973
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Post 31 Oct 2018

I hope Hydlide come back again!
Music Is My Life
&
Reason 10 sounds better :essentials:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsW3Wr ... gA05XklBng

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MattiasHG
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Post 31 Oct 2018

rcbuse wrote:
31 Oct 2018
There is some wacky stuff going on with the CPUs with more cores. I've personally seen it.

Here is a video of a single instance of Mono/Poly while cycling though various settings:

Might've mentioned this before, but this is actually not that wacky. We "spin wait" threads so that they're ready for instructions and don't need to be woken up. This is done to make sure everything's super tight, real-time audio is complex and demanding. We do this in all cases, mostly because we expect people to make songs with multiple devices and tracks.

In your example, you only use one device/device group. One device group is rendered as one unit and isn't parallelized, in other words it's only actually using one thread on one core and the rest are "spinning", waiting for instructions. In that situation, having hyper threading or even multi-core on will not make any difference. Both of these only come in to play when there are things we can process in parallel, and in that case you'll hardly notice the spin because things are rendering pretty much all the time.

Makes sense? I've said this before but the CPU meter, despite it's name, is not a great way to measure performance. The absolute best way to understand when performance is "bad" is when it impacts the sound of your song (i.e. dropouts, crackles and pops) or the rendering of graphics.

Not saying our implementation is perfect here of course, just want to shed some light on why it looks like that one instance of Mono/Poly uses all your resources where in reality it doesn't. :)

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guitfnky
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Post 31 Oct 2018

I know it’s sort of irrelevant to where we stand *now*, but honestly, in another 5-10 years or so, I suspect most moderately-powered systems will be able to handle about anything you throw at them. there will come a day when this isn’t even a discussion that people will need to have. you’ll have projects upwards of a hundred tracks, with multiple plugins (or Rack Extensions) each, and your CPU won’t bat an eye.

what Props *really* needs to develop is a time machine. :lol:

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adfielding
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Post 31 Oct 2018

QVprod wrote:
31 Oct 2018
Not old at all. I haven't reached 30 just yet and agree. I use Reason on a 2006 quad core Mac Pro (hacked up to Yosemite) and get acceptable performance out of it.
:shock:

Damn! Well, if it ain't broke...

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jappe
Posts: 2015
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Post 31 Oct 2018

antic604 wrote:
31 Oct 2018
rcbuse wrote:
31 Oct 2018
There is some wacky stuff going on with the CPUs with more cores. I've personally seen it.

Here is a video of a single instance of Mono/Poly while cycling though various settings:

Thanks, that's really weird but my question is was it different with Reason 9, 8 or 7?

And if it was better in earlier Reason versions, is it something that Props broke or maybe it's a change in CPU architectures that Props have not programmed for?
That's the problem which makes it so difficult to prove. I don't know if a windows patch, Intel meltdown/spectre patch, drivers or something else causes the non-vst performance problems I experience.
But I experience it on two different windows 10 machines, configured for performance using daw tuning videos.
Computer too slow is very often stopping my work flow these days, and that wasn't a problem for me couple years ago or so.
Scrolling the rack - or even just moving a few-pixel slider makes the DSP meter go up significantly and cause crackles+computer too slow.

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aeox
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Post 31 Oct 2018

guitfnky wrote:
31 Oct 2018
I know it’s sort of irrelevant to where we stand *now*, but honestly, in another 5-10 years or so, I suspect most moderately-powered systems will be able to handle about anything you throw at them. there will come a day when this isn’t even a discussion that people will need to have. you’ll have projects upwards of a hundred tracks, with multiple plugins (or Rack Extensions) each, and your CPU won’t bat an eye.

what Props *really* needs to develop is a time machine. :lol:
Something to think about :D
whoahh

Last edited by aeox on 24 May 2018, edited too many times in total.

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QVprod
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Post 31 Oct 2018

adfielding wrote:
31 Oct 2018
QVprod wrote:
31 Oct 2018
Not old at all. I haven't reached 30 just yet and agree. I use Reason on a 2006 quad core Mac Pro (hacked up to Yosemite) and get acceptable performance out of it.
:shock:

Damn! Well, if it ain't broke...
Haha, Apple made these machines pretty well. There's a whole community of people who buy old macs and upgrade them. Got it for cheap a couple years back as a step up from a 2010 dual core Macbook Pro. Does well at being exactly that, though I am eyeing the new mac mini at the moment...

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hurricane
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Post 31 Oct 2018

QVprod wrote:
31 Oct 2018
...I am eyeing the new mac mini at the moment...
Ooh, yes - might finally retire my 2012 mac mini.

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