Goodbye Hydlide?

[Oquasec]

Now isn't that something unexpected? I'll be sticking to Propellerhead for as long as propellerhead is propellerhead :O

[Jagwah]

Haha Hydlide loves Reason too much to leave it over that

[antic604]

https://trends.google.com/trends/explor ... t3h,Bitwig

Bitwig is not doing much better according to this graph...

You're making decisions on which software to use and its quality based on Google searches? Right...

[BRIGGS]

Haha Hydlide loves Reason too much to leave it over that

Yeah, he be playin us all!!

[Undistraction]

https://trends.google.com/trends/explor ... t3h,Bitwig

Bitwig is not doing much better according to this graph...

You're making decisions on which software to use and its quality based on Google searches? Right...

He's linking to the graph as a contrast to the graph I linked to, which shows that 'Propellerhead Reason' is searched for 1/4 as often as it was four years ago.

Here is a chart extending back to 2004 (as far as the data goes).

c1 copy.jpg (98.9 KiB) Viewed 1666 times

Here is another graph (which doesn't go back as far) showing the results for YouTube searches for the same terms.

c2 copy.jpg (135.86 KiB) Viewed 1658 times

Surely you can make the connection between a lack of interest in a product and a lack of a future for that product? Hydlide is one of the only people making YouTube content related to Reason with any regularity. It is telling that even he is leaving.

Reason as a product is flatlining. Does that make it a bad product? Not necessarily. Does it mean you should stop using it? I would say you should use whatever you prefer to use. Does it mean you should think carefully before investing any money in the platform? I would say yes. Is it indicative of a company making poor marketing decisions and failing to keep a product competitive? I would say yes. I would also say Google searches are quite a good indicator of popularity. Unlike baseless subjective claims.

[Loque]

You're making decisions on which software to use and its quality based on Google searches? Right...

He's linking to the graph as a contrast to the graph I linked to, which shows that 'Propellerhead Reason' is searched for 1/4 as often as it was four years ago.

Here is a chart extending back to 2004 (as far as the data goes).

c1 copy.jpg

Here is another graph (which doesn't go back as far) showing the results for YouTube searches for the same terms.

c2 copy.jpg

Surely you can make the connection between a lack of interest in a product and a lack of a future for that product? Hydlide is one of the only people making YouTube content related to Reason with any regularity. It is telling that even he is leaving.

Reason as a product is flatlining. Does that make it a bad product? Not necessarily. Does it mean you should stop using it? I would say you should use whatever you prefer to use. Does it mean you should think carefully before investing any money in the platform? I would say yes. Is it indicative of a company making poor marketing decisions and failing to keep a product competitive? I would say yes. I would also say Google searches are quite a good indicator of popularity. Unlike baseless subjective claims.

And the search term was "reason crack serialz torrent download"?

And now Reasontalks search hits will increase massively.

[Undistraction]

Google keywords aren't a good way to display Propellerhead's success.

Why aren't they exactly? Because it doesn't fit in with how you wish things were?

Simply changing the search term to "Reason 10" gave me the opposite result.

You are searching for a specific release which only exists from a given point in time. Of course there will be a spike, because hardly anyone would have searched for it before nine was released. 'Propellerhead Reason' is a constant term.

That aside, I don't think anyone is "stuck" using Reason because of Rack Extensions. If you're that upset with the product you'd simply switch to a different platform as Hylide is considering doing. Or... as many do, simply buy another DAW that excels at what Reason doesn't and use them interchangeably. Good VSTs aren't necessarily all that expensive, especially with stores like PluginBoutique.

If someone has made a large investment in Rack extensions in terms of time and money, then they will obviously find it far harder to move to another platform then if they had invested their time money in VSTs which do not lock you in to a particular platform.

[Oquasec]

Reason is locked in the same way Reaktor is locked in.
You keep usin it, slap it in another daw or don't use it and give it away

[Undistraction]

He's linking to the graph as a contrast to the graph I linked to, which shows that 'Propellerhead Reason' is searched for 1/4 as often as it was four years ago.

Here is a chart extending back to 2004 (as far as the data goes).

c1 copy.jpg

Here is another graph (which doesn't go back as far) showing the results for YouTube searches for the same terms.

c2 copy.jpg

Surely you can make the connection between a lack of interest in a product and a lack of a future for that product? Hydlide is one of the only people making YouTube content related to Reason with any regularity. It is telling that even he is leaving.

Reason as a product is flatlining. Does that make it a bad product? Not necessarily. Does it mean you should stop using it? I would say you should use whatever you prefer to use. Does it mean you should think carefully before investing any money in the platform? I would say yes. Is it indicative of a company making poor marketing decisions and failing to keep a product competitive? I would say yes. I would also say Google searches are quite a good indicator of popularity. Unlike baseless subjective claims.

And the search term was "reason crack serialz torrent download"?

And now Reasontalks search hits will increase massively.

Even 'Reason Torrent' is flatlining.

[antic604]

I run out of CPU/DSP on every DAW. For me, rendering synths to audio is the way to go.

True and true. However, most DAWs make it much easier to render to audio without 100% committing to it, by either giving you options to freeze your MIDI tracks or render them, disable & hide the original for future editing.

[botnotbot]

So much doom and gloom...

I've only been using Reason for a year but it has been an absolute blast. As a relatively new user, Props haven't burned up any good faith on my part. On the contrary, each of their releases so far (demoed in 9.5, bought at 10 ) has demonstrated that they are more or less on the path I expect/want them to be on.

I can understand for some of you who have been around for years waiting for updates that are blocking on them being in the right place business-wise and especially code-wise, it's been a frustrating experience to say the least.

Just know that not everyone here is stuck on sunk costs and some kind of fannatical devotion to the Pope^W Props. Some of us actually consider this to be a superior option to other VST hosts and sequencers. Considering the generally high quality of the RE marketplace, it offers a lot.

Yes there are upgrades to the Record side that need to happen. Guess what 10.2 contained? Some helpful hints that whatever has been keeping them from investing in hacking on the sequencer has finally been (at least partially) tackled.

The rest that we want (from GUI upgrades to RE/VST performance and MIDI in the rack) are all contingent on an insanely complicated audio engine upgrade.

Audio engines are staggeringly complex and Hydlide demonstrates a great ignorance acting like switching from single-threaded DSP to taking advantage of all cores at all times is a simple process like a compiler flag or a couple minor patches. It takes developer teams years to get this right.

How do I know? Well, let me tell you about some of the DAWs I was using previously.

People act like Studio One has had excellent performance forever, yet in reality their new audio engine didn't arrive fully arrive until 3.5. Logic has had it for a long time, but guess what? Logic can have 16 channels of MIDI assigned and running into it at any given time (you can get more by patching the environment but then if you can't record that MIDI). So there's a sacrifice that was chosen.

Oh and the new engine had bugs and kinks that weren't worked out for half a year or more.

Bitwig has consistently fallen short of their "lots of upgrades with new features" because they have had to rewrite their audio engine at least once, if not more than that. Most recently was the year-long wait for 2.4, which only added the inexcusably-absent idea of actual MIDI channels and not their harebrained excuse of "getting over the past". But prior to that there was a major audio engine replacement in the 1.x era that stalled forward progress for something like 12-18 months.

tl;dr -- Audio engine stuff is complex. Props has new users who are not bitter and disappointed but rather feeling pretty reinforced by Props decisions.

PS. I used to watch Hydlide but after a while I just couldn't handle his voice and his attitude. I realized it would bring my mood down, even if I enjoyed what I learned from him. Plus he has some weird "IDGAF if no one watches" flipping to "no one pays attention to me" patterns that you start to notice over time. I still think he's a good dude and part of the inspiration I had for giving Reason a try, in spite of the dated graphical engine.

[antic604]

Bitwig has consistently fallen short of their "lots of upgrades with new features"

What?! Show me a DAW that delivered more than Bitwig in point updates between x.0 and x.4 in just 18 months

Let me help:
- new devices: Phase-4 synth, new Sampler (granular+wavetable), Amp, Time Shift, Instrument & Effect Selector, Note FX Layer,
- new modulators: Audio Rate, Polynom, Quantize, Sample & Hold, Voice Stack, ParSeq-8, Note Counter
- comprehensive MIDI channel support throughout the engine,
- z-plane elastique time stretching,
- time-signature changes,
- extended device views,
- on-screen keyboard,
- voice stacking,
- Ableton Link support,
- MIDI clock slave,
- new sound packs.

[aeox]

I couldn't agree more with everything you said (not about the bitwig stuff, haven't used that)

[BananaSkins]

No one is jumping ship that has investing in RE's.
This was Propellerhead's best money making loyalty idea!
Once you've invested they have you by the balls


Oh yeah p.s Goodbye!

[VariableX]

So much doom and gloom...

I've only been using Reason for a year but it has been an absolute blast. As a relatively new user, Props haven't burned up any good faith on my part. On the contrary, each of their releases so far (demoed in 9.5, bought at 10 ) has demonstrated that they are more or less on the path I expect/want them to be on.

I can understand for some of you who have been around for years waiting for updates that are blocking on them being in the right place business-wise and especially code-wise, it's been a frustrating experience to say the least.

Just know that not everyone here is stuck on sunk costs and some kind of fannatical devotion to the Pope^W Props. Some of us actually consider this to be a superior option to other VST hosts and sequencers. Considering the generally high quality of the RE marketplace, it offers a lot.

Yes there are upgrades to the Record side that need to happen. Guess what 10.2 contained? Some helpful hints that whatever has been keeping them from investing in hacking on the sequencer has finally been (at least partially) tackled.

The rest that we want (from GUI upgrades to RE/VST performance and MIDI in the rack) are all contingent on an insanely complicated audio engine upgrade.

Audio engines are staggeringly complex and Hydlide demonstrates a great ignorance acting like switching from single-threaded DSP to taking advantage of all cores at all times is a simple process like a compiler flag or a couple minor patches. It takes developer teams years to get this right.

How do I know? Well, let me tell you about some of the DAWs I was using previously.

People act like Studio One has had excellent performance forever, yet in reality their new audio engine didn't arrive fully arrive until 3.5. Logic has had it for a long time, but guess what? Logic can have 16 channels of MIDI assigned and running into it at any given time (you can get more by patching the environment but then if you can't record that MIDI). So there's a sacrifice that was chosen.

Oh and the new engine had bugs and kinks that weren't worked out for half a year or more.

Bitwig has consistently fallen short of their "lots of upgrades with new features" because they have had to rewrite their audio engine at least once, if not more than that. Most recently was the year-long wait for 2.4, which only added the inexcusably-absent idea of actual MIDI channels and not their harebrained excuse of "getting over the past". But prior to that there was a major audio engine replacement in the 1.x era that stalled forward progress for something like 12-18 months.

tl;dr -- Audio engine stuff is complex. Props has new users who are not bitter and disappointed but rather feeling pretty reinforced by Props decisions.

PS. I used to watch Hydlide but after a while I just couldn't handle his voice and his attitude. I realized it would bring my mood down, even if I enjoyed what I learned from him. Plus he has some weird "IDGAF if no one watches" flipping to "no one pays attention to me" patterns that you start to notice over time. I still think he's a good dude and part of the inspiration I had for giving Reason a try, in spite of the dated graphical engine.

well said! absolutly spot on!
I chose Reason because I think its just great fun. I came from Tracktion and have Ableton live lite, i installed the NI free stuff, I could have gone with any DAW i wanted and was close to buying an Apple and Logic pro, I also had a good look at FLoops but after a Reason demo .... man in my opinion it blows everything out the water its just so much fun! Money wasnt an issue for me as far as i had budgeted for new software and hardware, but Reason is also great value for money straight out the box, its all self contained if you stick to REs, it sounds great and everytime i open it I smile

[Ostermilk]

Even 'Reason Torrent' is flatlining.

Hardly surprising that, given that pirated versions of Reason stopped at v5.



Some old news. The biggest decline has been in Desktop based DAW software across the board and a trend toward mobile 'collaboration' type setups, i.e. Allihoopa, Bandlab et. al.

Paint me as fanboy but I still get more done in Reason than in anything else, and rather than sit and make sure everyone else is engaged in my own misery when that situation changes I'll likely just toddle off and use something else. But then I've never been one to see Reason as the be all and end all and 'shock horror' I've always used other stuff to augment my capabilities.

I've got two choices, I can either use what is out there to do what I want to do, or just follow the latest trends and use what every one else tells me is good.

Hydlide has a passionate nature and he's prone to exclamation, and I like the legacy he's already left, if he decides to use something else then there's plenty of good software out there to do the job and I wish him well.

So why does anyone need anyone else to remind them what else is out there or how crap they might think Reason is? I assume if anyone is making use of their software then why do I need to insist that what they are using is somehow sub-par?

[Heigen5]

But where does this kind of attitude come from: i.e. People were fine using Reason back in the days but not anymore, even when it does a lot more and betterly NOW?????

[Loque]

On the contrary, each of their releases so far (demoed in 9.5, bought at 10 ) has demonstrated that they are more or less on the path I expect/want them to be on.

I guess we just see the fear of the ppl that their lil baby doesnt make it into the future.

[kraftf]

I have returned to Reason in version 9 for mac osx since using it in version 4 in windows XP and 7. I always remember it as something something sexy in looks and soundwise but always cpu taxing. The same thing applies today. For operations that you can get by with little cpu usage in ableton e.g., reason makes the cpu go oomph!!!!
This is a fact and I hope that things get better with their upcoming update. I am using ableton, maschine and reason. Each for a different reason. Anybody is free to use what suits them better and the same goes for Hydlide and anybody else. Hydlide has a point nut no one is obliged to follow his path of decision making.
Personally I think of Reason as an exciting DAW that has many limitations with regard to other modern platforms but I really love it and invest my some of my free time and and some of my hard earned money too.

[Reasonable man]

Its about being creative (for me anyways) and getting a sound/idea/ sequence down fast. without having to stop and go ... crap i have to bounce this section to audio (which dosn't solve the issue) and this means not being able to change/manipulate/morph this idea as i progress ....cause i cant really progress it they way i could perhaps in anpther daw.
Its about being able to set up a modest template (that dosn't take up 4 dsp bars before a note is struck) and yes you can bounce synths to audio but some of us want to be able to play those synths in a live performance scenario along with other stuff thats capable of being improvised and manipilated live so were not standing there pressing space bar and twiddling the filter cut-off.
I remember Hydlode did a video about cpu not that long ago and how to get around it which slightly contradicts his attitude now .....so spending money on a new system will apparently change anyone's attitude!
If theyre are core issues that are going to be ignored then thats not helping the company or any of the useres... the thing is most of us dont know what the real problem is or wheather it can and will be addressed (maybye the very core problem is being slowly addressed as we speak) but people burying their heads in the sand and pretending there is no performane issiue isn't gonna get anything done is it?
My experience with electronic musicians is that for a few years now is that Reason is renownwd for not being able to handle the same kind of load as your abletons and logics .. that reputation wasn't simply 'invented' by people who know nothing yet there is thta whiff of 'well reason is more creative ....so..) here that is strange ... is like ' thats the way it is .. get over it' which is ......great .

[scratchnsnifff]

True. I just hope he keeps his videos up online. I love his old videos on malström Thor and the earlier rack extensions. His videos started getting shady around the release of the rig package conflict. If I remember correctly that was one of his first negative chain of videos.
But either way, I think he’ll end up just taking a break. Other daws are fun and powerful. But reason is it’s own thing. Plus I only have a lite version of ableton and Reason easily rewires with ableton just a matter of telling ableton to get the sound of Reason into its audio track

And of course there’s nothing wrong with using other daws, either to take a holiday from your habits or just to use them for what they’re best at. The video just seems overly salty I guess. Like if it’s bringing him that little joy...why wait? Get going on some new software, turn that frown upside down and make music!

And yeah I know; REs. We all knew they were locked in to the platform and non exchangeable when we bought them. It is what it is. Europa is an interesting proof of concept, though, in as much as porting REs to other formats. So who knows what’ll be possible in the future? Maybe he’ll be able to use his 3k+ of racks afterall!

In my opinion that has to be the next logical step for a big move for Re development
If developers could release a rack extension and run it inside of a propellerhead made re to vst wrapper (with a few on board LFOs and envelopes for CV on a tab page)
This would make it less daunting for developers. Some who I have chatted with have said the time spent on a device and if it doesn’t work on the one specific shop, ends up being a turn off. Thus they continue with vst

But if their Re could also be a vst and easily ported. I think it would be a way different story. I think that a move like this would put users like hydlide at some sense of ease, being able to use their hard earned and spent money where ever they so choose
Also one last note. Think of Europa. Europa is an amazing rack extension/native rack unit (obviously built with the re sdk) they even managed to make an internet player of Europa full featured.

If they can get it to work on google and vst (within the same year)
I think they aren’t that far off from making some developer tool kit for porting full featured rack devices
All speculation:)

[Heigen5]

I have a feeling that Reason will be getting a very nice Freeze in the Reason 11. It will be released in 2019.
That's the most acute thing to add at the moment I think.

[Ostermilk]

But where does this kind of attitude come from: i.e. People were fine using Reason back in the days but not anymore, even when it does a lot more and betterly NOW?????

Exactly.

Sadly that's part of it as well. There was no comparison until VST's were bolted on only one version ago, so partly it's perception.

[guitfnky]

I’m with botnotbot. especially on that last bit about Hydlide’s decent content being overshadowed by his dismissive/negative attitude. don’t like Reason anymore, or find it too frustrating—that’s fine. just don’t let the door...

[botnotbot]

Bitwig has consistently fallen short of their "lots of upgrades with new features"

What?! Show me a DAW that delivered more than Bitwig in point updates between x.0 and x.4 in just 18 months

Let me help:
- new devices: Phase-4 synth, new Sampler (granular+wavetable), Amp, Time Shift, Instrument & Effect Selector, Note FX Layer,
- new modulators: Audio Rate, Polynom, Quantize, Sample & Hold, Voice Stack, ParSeq-8, Note Counter
- comprehensive MIDI channel support throughout the engine,
- z-plane elastique time stretching,
- time-signature changes,
- extended device views,
- on-screen keyboard,
- voice stacking,
- Ableton Link support,
- MIDI clock slave,
- new sound packs.

Sorry I should have phrased it differently. I should have said the only thing offered by the newest upgrade that appealed to me at all. Those upgrades are generally covered for me in Reason, with notable exceptions.

I honestly was a huge Bitwig fan but since 2.0 I started using other stuff and they have yet to wow me enough to bring me back. I spent a year waiting for the new audio engine only to have to wait another year for it to incorporate something that any 21st century "brand new codebase" DAW with an eye towards hardware should have had from the get go.

Some people have experienced a lack of faith in Props direction. Well, Bitwig's dev's gave me reason for the same. I'm interested to see what happens next, of course, and will definitely buy whatever upgrade introduces modular patching.

I don't hate them or wish ill of their project, I'm just not getting missing anything serious from Reason particularly now that we have multi-clip editing!