TIDAL accused of deliberately faking Kanye West and Beyoncé streaming numbers

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bxbrkrz
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09 May 2018

https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/ ... e-numbers/

What a story this is.

You might recall that, in the deep dark recesses of music streaming history – ie. two years ago – Jay Z-owned TIDAL left many in the music business scratching their heads.

In March 2016, the firm claimed that Kanye West’s The Life Of Pablo, a six-week exclusive on its platform, had been streamed 250m times in just 10 days.

At the same time, TIDAL claimed that its platform had surpassed 3m subscribers.

These numbers meant that, on average, every single TIDAL subscriber would have had to be playing the Kanye album over eight times a day.

Similar suspicions were triggered by the success of Beyonce’s record-breaking Lemonade a couple of months later.

TIDAL claimed that Lemonade was streamed 306m times on its platform in its first 15 days post-release.

Stats like this led Norwegian newspaper Dagens Næringsliv to investigate in January 2017 – and uncover documents which, it said, suggested that TIDAL had been deliberately inflating its subscriber figures.

This report was lend credence by data from trusted music industry research firm Midia in the same month, which estimated that TIDAL’s subscriber base actually only included 1m people worldwide.

Now, DN has run an update – following more than a year of journalistic digging. And it’s an absolute jaw-dropper.

Its central accusation: ‘Beyoncé’s and Kanye West’s listener numbers on TIDAL have been manipulated to the tune of several hundred million false plays… which has generated massive royalty payouts at the expense of other artists.’

https://www.musicbusinessworldwide.com/ ... e-numbers/
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normen
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09 May 2018

The whole music business been a numbers game for a while now. Chart positions have been generated by other means as well. I don't see the whole concept of generating a lifetime worth of income from a few songs (or any kind of performance) anyway. Just put away money like everybody else including many of your artist friends like actors, painters etc.

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Timmy Crowne
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09 May 2018

Wow. That’s a shame if it’s true. Can’t say I’m surprised, though. Everything’s so occluded and disconnected now. Media reports project images of so much popularity but hardly any of the people I interact with are raving about these “hits.” Hundreds of people of different ages and cultures. Very little street buzz anymore. Maybe people stopped talking about music because media firms talk for us now. :/

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bxbrkrz
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09 May 2018

The future looks bleak for the art world, unless some kind of blockchain is created for the artisans. No more middlemen.
757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

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normen
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09 May 2018

Timmy Crowne wrote:
09 May 2018
Maybe people stopped talking about music because media firms talk for us now. :/
Maybe people stopped talking about music because it's normal to hear music now? ;)

On a less cheeky note it's undeniable that the value of music per se has seen a sharp decline. I mean two hundred years ago it was super special if someone around you had an instrument and played it. A whole band or even an orchestra playing - the event of a lifetime for many. These days even some news shows have music playing in the background o_O

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Timmy Crowne
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09 May 2018

bxbrkrz wrote:
09 May 2018
The future looks bleak for the art world, unless some kind of blockchain is created for the artisans. No more middlemen.
normen wrote:
09 May 2018
Maybe people stopped talking about music because it's normal to hear music now? ;)
Haha! Agreed. Music has become so commonplace it's no longer remarkable to most people. The democratization of music into the hands of the individual is helping to revivify the culture though. Kids have the tools to compose and distribute now. There's a lot of potential in the air!

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EnochLight
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09 May 2018

Hahah! That's insane. This ties into the thread I started here a bit ago:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7506526

According to that thread, Tidal paid $.0110/per play in 2017. Using numbers from that article, 250m plays would net Kanye West $2.75 million (well, his record label anyway). Ms. Queen B would have netted over $3.3 million from $306m plays.

When Lady Gaga went on record and stated she only got $167 USD from Spotify for a million plays of "Poker Face" back in 2010, it's easy to see that Tidal/West/Beyonce was total bullshit. The thing I can't wrap my head around is: why would Tidal fudge the numbers and fatten up play counts??! It's just making them lose money! :roll:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 44051.html
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miscend
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09 May 2018

I have long suspected that the music industry is much like Hollywood with its bullshit accounting and completely made up numbers to create more hype.

Anyway that’s the thing with private businesses, they can completely make up their numbers and there is no way of verifying the truth. The good news is that Spotify recently went public and are now subject to much stricter accounting rules which will allow people to go through their figures with a fine tooth comb.

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miscend
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09 May 2018

EnochLight wrote:
09 May 2018
Hahah! That's insane. This ties into the thread I started here a bit ago:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7506526

According to that thread, Tidal paid $.0110/per play in 2017. Using numbers from that article, 250m plays would net Kanye West $2.75 million (well, his record label anyway). Ms. Queen B would have netted over $3.3 million from $306m plays.

When Lady Gaga went on record and stated she only got $167 USD from Spotify for a million plays of "Poker Face" back in 2010, it's easy to see that Tidal/West/Beyonce was total bullshit. The thing I can't wrap my head around is: why would Tidal fudge the numbers and fatten up play counts??! It's just making them lose money! :roll:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 44051.html
It’s a tactic. The inflated numbers allow them to generate more hype and get more financing from private investors. Look at Soundcloud they have never ever made a single penny since they started, yet they continue to recieve money from investors who are keeping the lights on. They put in money in the hope the business will grow and eventually go public.

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bxbrkrz
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10 May 2018

EnochLight wrote:
09 May 2018
Hahah! That's insane. This ties into the thread I started here a bit ago:

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=7506526

According to that thread, Tidal paid $.0110/per play in 2017. Using numbers from that article, 250m plays would net Kanye West $2.75 million (well, his record label anyway). Ms. Queen B would have netted over $3.3 million from $306m plays.

When Lady Gaga went on record and stated she only got $167 USD from Spotify for a million plays of "Poker Face" back in 2010, it's easy to see that Tidal/West/Beyonce was total bullshit. The thing I can't wrap my head around is: why would Tidal fudge the numbers and fatten up play counts??! It's just making them lose money! :roll:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-ente ... 44051.html
This is an illustration, but the comment above, the tactic, was perfect.
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bxbrkrz
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14 May 2018

Norway artists file complaint against Tidal over false streaming

Oslo (AFP) - Norwegian songwriters, composers and music publishers on Monday said they had lodged a complaint against Jay Z's music platform Tidal after a media report said its streaming statistics had been manipulated.

The financial daily Dagens Naeringsliv (DN) claimed last week that the streaming numbers for Kanye West's "The Life of Pablo" and Beyonce's "Lemonade" were inflated through manipulated user play counts on Tidal, allowing the stars excessive royalty payouts.

Rap mogul Jay Z bought Tidal, which has its roots and significant activities in Oslo, through his holding Project Panther for $56 million in March 2015.

His wife Beyonce and his former protege West both launched their albums exclusively on the streaming platform in 2016.

In an email to AFP, the online music service rejected the allegations, calling them a "smear campaign" fed by "lies".

Tidal's lawyer Jordan Siev told DN that it denied any manipulation and said its data had been stolen.

But the Norwegian organisation Tono, which represents around 30,000 rights holders, said the streaming manipulation claims were "strong" and "apparently credible" as they filed a complaint with the Norwegian police.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/norway-artis ... 48345.html
757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

RobC
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14 May 2018

Mainstream is golden.

Some call it pee music.

But who cares? It's not like the independent scene wouldn't be ruled by people who do 1% music and 99% management!

I stopped giving a poo about music business 4-5 years ago.

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normen
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14 May 2018

RobC wrote:
14 May 2018
Mainstream is golden.

Some call it pee music.

But who cares? It's not like the independent scene wouldn't be ruled by people who do 1% music and 99% management!

I stopped giving a poo about music business 4-5 years ago.
Well if you can buy it then theres commerce involved :) But that doesn't mean that there isn't spaces where musicians make music for the sake of making music. And thats also where the material for the mainstream comes from in the end I guess.

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Exowildebeest
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14 May 2018

Meanwhile, poor Les still doesn't get any airplay :cry:


RobC
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14 May 2018

normen wrote:
14 May 2018
RobC wrote:
14 May 2018
Mainstream is golden.

Some call it pee music.

But who cares? It's not like the independent scene wouldn't be ruled by people who do 1% music and 99% management!

I stopped giving a poo about music business 4-5 years ago.
Well if you can buy it then theres commerce involved :) But that doesn't mean that there isn't spaces where musicians make music for the sake of making music. And thats also where the material for the mainstream comes from in the end I guess.
What does it matter where they get their workers from, if even the independent labels rather choose by number of subscribers than music quality?
I dare to go as far as stating: talented, true musicians never-ever make it not even on independent labels, anymore.

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EnochLight
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14 May 2018

RobC wrote:
14 May 2018
What does it matter where they get their workers from, if even the independent labels rather choose by number of subscribers than music quality?
I dare to go as far as stating: talented, true musicians never-ever make it not even on independent labels, anymore.
Do labels actually choose by number of subscribers, though? If this thread had shown anything, pay-per-click has proven to not be a profitable venture for labels (well, not for artists on the labels, anyway).

As far as "talented, true musicians" never making it, I can cite dozens of examples of that being categorically incorrect. There's a metric shit ton of good music out there in the indie scene, and much of it is finding its way into the market.
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normen
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14 May 2018

RobC wrote:
14 May 2018
normen wrote:
14 May 2018


Well if you can buy it then theres commerce involved :) But that doesn't mean that there isn't spaces where musicians make music for the sake of making music. And thats also where the material for the mainstream comes from in the end I guess.
What does it matter where they get their workers from, if even the independent labels rather choose by number of subscribers than music quality?
I dare to go as far as stating: talented, true musicians never-ever make it not even on independent labels, anymore.
Hehehe. Well I wouldn‘t go that far. No matter if they play cheesy pop songs - most of these people play your ass off ;)

And again you can‘t go to a shop and expect that they have what nobody buys - but it‘s so easy to just go out there and find great music. Plus what Enoch said, even in the mainstream theres so much great stuff. The Eagles are awesome :)

RobC
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15 May 2018

EnochLight wrote:
14 May 2018
RobC wrote:
14 May 2018
What does it matter where they get their workers from, if even the independent labels rather choose by number of subscribers than music quality?
I dare to go as far as stating: talented, true musicians never-ever make it not even on independent labels, anymore.
Do labels actually choose by number of subscribers, though? If this thread had shown anything, pay-per-click has proven to not be a profitable venture for labels (well, not for artists on the labels, anyway).

As far as "talented, true musicians" never making it, I can cite dozens of examples of that being categorically incorrect. There's a metric shit ton of good music out there in the indie scene, and much of it is finding its way into the market.
Of course they do! Some even directly state not to submit anything to them if you aren't already full of subscribers.
...and those fooling tactics are part of the management work, that I mentioned earlier.

Sure, even a farmer can bring freshly grown tomatoes to the market place and earn a few bucks.
Seriously though, there indeed are tons of excellent musicians that try for a few years, then disappear because they just get pushed in the background and never take off.

Who's that blind not to see, that no matter what scene, the scum is what gets pushed forward. And yes, the very much talented, true musicians - even if 1% of them gets on the market, they never can make a living off it alone.

The whole music business and industry is pathetic.

RobC
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15 May 2018

normen wrote:
14 May 2018
RobC wrote:
14 May 2018


What does it matter where they get their workers from, if even the independent labels rather choose by number of subscribers than music quality?
I dare to go as far as stating: talented, true musicians never-ever make it not even on independent labels, anymore.
Hehehe. Well I wouldn‘t go that far. No matter if they play cheesy pop songs - most of these people play your ass off ;)

And again you can‘t go to a shop and expect that they have what nobody buys - but it‘s so easy to just go out there and find great music. Plus what Enoch said, even in the mainstream theres so much great stuff. The Eagles are awesome :)
Oh, no, that's not what I meant by talented, true musician. I couldn't care less about how professionally they perform shit music.

There's a twist there: they mostly sell what barely anyone wants (even those few pirate it most of the time). And it's great that music is out there, somewhere buried deeply ~ it's another question if the majority of people is willing to search - and how much luck a new artist needs to even get a few dozens of views/plays/whatever. It needs ignorance, not to notice what's going on.

Standards dropped badly, but if you guys are satisfied with cultic pop icons, by all means, enjoy them.

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normen
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15 May 2018

RobC wrote:
15 May 2018
Oh, no, that's not what I meant by talented, true musician. I couldn't care less about how professionally they perform shit music.

There's a twist there: they mostly sell what barely anyone wants (even those few pirate it most of the time). And it's great that music is out there, somewhere buried deeply ~ it's another question if the majority of people is willing to search - and how much luck a new artist needs to even get a few dozens of views/plays/whatever. It needs ignorance, not to notice what's going on.

Standards dropped badly, but if you guys are satisfied with cultic pop icons, by all means, enjoy them.
Okay so riddle me this: How is somebody who devotes his whole life to finding the right tunes supposed to eat if he doesn't make money from what he learns on the way?

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EnochLight
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15 May 2018

RobC wrote:
15 May 2018
The whole music business and industry is pathetic.
...said everyone, forever, since it began. :D :lol:
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RobC
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15 May 2018

normen wrote:
15 May 2018
RobC wrote:
15 May 2018
Oh, no, that's not what I meant by talented, true musician. I couldn't care less about how professionally they perform shit music.

There's a twist there: they mostly sell what barely anyone wants (even those few pirate it most of the time). And it's great that music is out there, somewhere buried deeply ~ it's another question if the majority of people is willing to search - and how much luck a new artist needs to even get a few dozens of views/plays/whatever. It needs ignorance, not to notice what's going on.

Standards dropped badly, but if you guys are satisfied with cultic pop icons, by all means, enjoy them.
Okay so riddle me this: How is somebody who devotes his whole life to finding the right tunes supposed to eat if he doesn't make money from what he learns on the way?
That's an instrument player - unless you mean a piano tuner. - With that effort, we can call wall painters artists, too.
Shit music is the fault of talentless composers, producers - or just call them "creators". That there are cultic monkeys, pushed on the stage, whom are willing to perform like it's their work, is their own responsibility (I know, they just do their jobs - so do prostitutes ~ though they don't hold a microphone in their hands, but something else.)

RobC
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15 May 2018

EnochLight wrote:
15 May 2018
RobC wrote:
15 May 2018
The whole music business and industry is pathetic.
...said everyone, forever, since it began. :D :lol:
Be pleasured by it, then!

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bxbrkrz
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15 May 2018

Strange how we focus our mind away from the subject of a fraud, and instead trying define what is or is not "good music"
Like cats and a laser pointer.
ADD?
There must be a formula that can predict this behavior in a thread evolution.

No wonder Tidal exists as is.
Fascinating.
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Adabler
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15 May 2018

This is a forum thread.

Don't catch you slippin' up!
:reason: 12, Win10

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