Jazz Rant (Pissing on jazz)

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TritoneAddiction
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22 Feb 2018

So I'm gonna piss on jazz and be an annoying whiner for a while, so if you don't want to read about that then you should probably stop right now. :D Obviously what I'm about to say is an overgeneralization but here it is anyway.

I've heard plenty of people say that "You just don't understand it, that's why you don't like it". That might be true for some but I studied this shit for years, learning the scales and jazz chords, practising soloing, trying to listen to it and enjoy it. I really tried to like it and gave it many chances to grow on me, but no. For the most part it just didn't do anything for me emotionally.

Obviously I never became a good jazz player because it's a really hard genre to master and I really think you have to like it in order to become good at it.

The worst part for me is all the endless soloing. It might be fun to play, but as a composition itself it's just too much noodling around. Just learn to write a proper tune damnit. Maybe if they extracted 5% of what they all played and built a song around that it would work out better.
I know there's themes in jazz, but many times they are overlooked. Let's not kid ourselves, the "song" is just there as an excuse to play solos.
It probably doesn't help that the typical 2-5-1 chord progression doesn't appeal to me either.

There's so much potential in all the scales and note choices available in the genre. It's just too bad it has to end up sounding like jazz. It's supposed to be so free compared to other music, yet it's still so limited in its sound.
I'm almost of the opinion that people say they like jazz because they think it will make them sound like a sophisticated person or something, like you don't want to look dumb just because you prefer simpler compositions or genres. God forbid you actually enjoy something that's catchy.

Having said all this. I don't regret studying it because it gave me a lot of knowledge about a bunch of new scales, chords, knowing my fretboard on the guitar and so on. Jazz for me is more like an exercise in music and theory rather than something to enjoy.
I do use this knowledge in my music even though it usually doesn't sound jazzy at all. Weirder scales and note choices pops in every now and then, but I try to make sure it still sounds natural and melodic to my ears.
Of course there's always exceptions in every genre. There are a few bits here and there that I genuinly enjoy, mostly the more melodic type of jazz where they are actually trying to make proper music rather than jerk around as much as possible with their instruments.

Aaah it feels so good to vent sometimes :D

What's your opinion on the genre? Love it? Hate it? Indifferent?

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normen
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22 Feb 2018

Yeah, I‘m not a special fan either. I think its the better approach to music though, more open and playful than classical composition/theory.

But yeah, what you say about people listening to it just because OTHER people might consider it as „good music“ is probably true, coming from the theater and opera world I saw a LOT of such people. No own taste in music so they listen to what is generally considered as „good“ - opera...

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JiggeryPokery
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Joined: 15 Jan 2015

22 Feb 2018

Jazz, wouldn't consider myself a fan either, but the CB soundtracks are on near constant rotation here.




(ps, the irony of someone handled as "tritone" disliking strange chords is not lost on me :puf_wink: :lol: )

But I think you're right; jazz is often a bit too wanky, and too "superior" in its attitude. The old Fast Show "nice" gag was spot on with its air of smoky club-room, late night BBC2 smugness. Done right, it think it can still be magnificent, as Yoko Kanno above, I feel, proves. I pretty much never listen to old jazz though, I think Ella Fitzgerald is the only other jazz artist actively in my collection (I'm more a blues fan, Bessie Smith, John Lee Hooker etc).

michael.jaye
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22 Feb 2018

There’s so many different styles of jazz though, not all of it is totally over-complicated. They have recurring motifs and hooks sometimes that are harder to spot.


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michael.jaye
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22 Feb 2018

John Coltrane’s “My Favourite Things” I think is the best example of “catchy” meeting “virtuosity”. The whole song is the familiar hook as you know it, but the playing gets more ‘complicated ‘ as the song progresses as he plays around and through the hook. He seems to play every variation possible of the melody, but to me it still sounds right .




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TritoneAddiction
Posts: 1436
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22 Feb 2018

JiggeryPokery wrote:
22 Feb 2018
(ps, the irony of someone handled as "tritone" disliking strange chords is not lost on me :puf_wink: :lol: )
:D Yeah it might seem ironic but the whole "tritone" thing actually came from listening to lots of metal and old Prodigy tunes that incorporated that interval.
I don't really mind dissonant music or jazzier chords either for that matter, it's mostly how things are put together in jazz that ruins it for me :D

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normen
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22 Feb 2018

TritoneAddiction wrote:
22 Feb 2018
JiggeryPokery wrote:
22 Feb 2018
(ps, the irony of someone handled as "tritone" disliking strange chords is not lost on me :puf_wink: :lol: )
:D Yeah it might seem ironic but the whole "tritone" thing actually came from listening to lots of metal and old Prodigy tunes that incorporated that interval.
I don't really mind dissonant music or jazzier chords either for that matter, it's mostly how things are put together in jazz that ruins it for me :D
Well to be perfectly technical a tritone isn‘t a chord ;) I know some musicians that said something to the effect of „I will never again play any triad in my music or life“ after coming out of music school xD

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motuscott
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22 Feb 2018

michael.jaye wrote:
22 Feb 2018
John Coltrane’s “My Favourite Things”
The version w/ Roy Haynes on drums

I likes the jass musiks

Harmen
Posts: 48
Joined: 12 Jan 2018

22 Feb 2018

I like Jazz allot!! love it !!, improvisation and stuff.


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O1B
Posts: 1029
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22 Feb 2018

ah... Jazz... Jazz

the random noodle ride ... - how uninteresting... how 'deja vu'....
It's like the random bloop bleeps coming out of euroracks - to me.

No building , crashing, rolling, aftershocks, stillness.... damage assessment
..
IMO, the last great Jazzist, imo, was Satchmo. He had an ear for TONE.

Hello Dolly is Spectacular... a great production piece.
(1m37s to the end.... beautiful.)


on another note, Cool Runings, Man!
Image
TritoneAddiction wrote:
22 Feb 2018
the "song" is just there as an excuse to play solos.
It probably doesn't help that the typical 2-5-1 chord progression doesn't appeal to me either.

There's so much potential in all the scales and note choices available in the genre. It's just too bad it has to end up sounding like jazz. It's supposed to be so free compared to other music, yet it's still so limited in its sound.

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normen
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22 Feb 2018

I actually like to listen to some smooth jazz, there its not so much about trying to impress with harmonic constructs but only with sound. No instrument or musician push themselves to the foreground, that would go exactly against the whole feel. Everything is done to make the music sound pleasant, right down to the touch of the guitar player and the timing of the drummer.

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motuscott
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22 Feb 2018

Jazz players are the best on their instrument. Can we agree on this? Improvisation is a skill I hold in high esteem, sightreading, not so much.
Of course I can do one and not the other
judge me, bitches
at least we have Reason in common...
Right?

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motuscott
Posts: 1027
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22 Feb 2018

A thought:
24 hrs in a room w/ Archie Shepp
you, naked
Archie, on somethin
deal w/ it

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normen
Posts: 3342
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22 Feb 2018

motuscott wrote:
22 Feb 2018
Jazz players are the best on their instrument. Can we agree on this? Improvisation is a skill I hold in high esteem, sightreading, not so much.
Of course I can do one and not the other
judge me, bitches
at least we have Reason in common...
Right?
Totally agree. I‘ve seen people play in orchestras where I didn‘t really know if I would call them musicians at all, they can only play from sheet and then even just a certain kind of music (vienna classic). If you‘d slip in wrong notes they‘d play right over it. Or if you give them gershwin and say „it‘s a swing“ they will play it straight until they get notation where its written in dotted notes. Actually saw that one play out during a rehearsal.

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Marco Raaphorst
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22 Feb 2018

Miles Davis!
Marco Raaphorst

Music & soundware https://melodiefabriek.com.
Check out my new ReFill Rockmen: https://melodiefabriek.com/blog/rockmen ... available/

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motuscott
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22 Feb 2018

Marco Raaphorst wrote:
22 Feb 2018
Miles Davis!
Can I get a witness?

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Reasonable man
Posts: 175
Joined: 14 Jul 2016

22 Feb 2018

Agree . Its Kinda hard to incorporate into popular music nowadays. I love the setting of classic old dudes in sharp suits and low voices playing trumpets and saxophone solos in the clubs though. What they're really saying is ' im mad ....take it or leave it'

I dont know if this technically can be called Jazz but boy does it still stand the test of time ... its one for dancing on a bar counter somewhere in Barcelona


TritoneAddiction
Posts: 1436
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22 Feb 2018

motuscott wrote:
22 Feb 2018
Jazz players are the best on their instrument. Can we agree on this? Improvisation is a skill I hold in high esteem, sightreading, not so much.
They are very skilled for sure. But that doesn't matter much to me if I don't like the end result.

It's hard to measure who's best when it comes to music. It's so much about playing a genre convincingly.
I remember listening to jazz group at a club years ago. They all did a good job until they decided to throw in a simple pop tune for fun. One would think that such skilled musicians would be able to get through the simple tune they played, but it sounded absolutely horrible. Even the simple drum beat they played sounded completely off. All the solo skills in the world couldn't save them at that point.
One could argue that it takes as much talent to make something simple sound good and interesting as it does playing something advanced.

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QVprod
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22 Feb 2018

Depends on the kind of jazz you're referring to. I believe its mainly styles like Bebop that heavily solo based. In that sense, it's purpose is to highlight the musicians. Most music isn't musician focused including other types of Jazz. However the theory and skills developed from playing Jazz , soloing... etc... transfer to other genres that were influenced by it. I don't know of many people who listen to it as alternative to other music, but it's pretty exciting to see live. In fact quite a lot of American music is derived from Jazz, we've just let go of a lot of the fancy complex chords in most genres besides Gospel,R&B, and Neo Soul.

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motuscott
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22 Feb 2018

They are very skilled for sure. But that doesn't matter much to me if I don't like the end result.
Well there's that.

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modecca
Posts: 591
Joined: 07 Jul 2016

22 Feb 2018

normen wrote:
22 Feb 2018
I actually like to listen to some smooth jazz, there its not so much about trying to impress with harmonic constructs but only with sound. No instrument or musician push themselves to the foreground, that would go exactly against the whole feel. Everything is done to make the music sound pleasant, right down to the touch of the guitar player and the timing of the drummer.
Smooth Jazz:
That reminded me to finally figure out who does this song.
There are a handful of other smooth jazz songs(more heavy on synths), I would love to find, that I heard on 94.7 'the wave' before it turned into a pop station calling itself smooth jazz.
As I find with any genre, there is a lot of what I feel is generic and a small percentage that I find memorable.
This one perfectly represents what I like about smooth jazz:


Then on the Jazz funk fusion side I find some hyponotic grooves on this one.
😺 😸 😹 😻 😼 😽 🙀

michael.jaye
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22 Feb 2018

The track “Actual Proof” from this album is an all-time favourite of mine. Complexity of jazz meeting funk music.


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modecca
Posts: 591
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22 Feb 2018

Actual proof is brilliant.
One cool thing about Herbie back then, making jazz with the ARP Odyssey, ARP Soloist, ARP 2600, ARP String Ensemble.

In more of an electronic style I remember hearing this one on Giles Peterson worlwide program; Love the Jazz solo at the beginning


This is another example of some standout smooth jazz:
😺 😸 😹 😻 😼 😽 🙀

michael.jaye
Posts: 114
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22 Feb 2018

modecca wrote:
22 Feb 2018
Actual proof is brilliant.
One cool thing about Herbie back then, making jazz with the ARP Odyssey, ARP Soloist, ARP 2600, ARP String Ensemble.

In more of an electronic style I remember hearing this one on Giles Peterson worlwide program; Love the Jazz solo at the beginning


This is another example of some standout smooth jazz:
Zero DB is great!

Personally I can't really stomach Smooth Jazz as a genre, although older stuff like Kind Of Blue is classic.

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bxbrkrz
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22 Feb 2018

Is this jazz?


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