The Last Jedi

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JiggeryPokery
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15 Dec 2017

No actual plot spoilers in this post... but I do refer to a couple of things in as non-specific a way as possible, but if wanting to go in really clean... avoid reading. And bigger spoilerage in subsequent responses might be far more specific. ;)
______

There's something about John William's main theme, the way that first blast punctuates the main title card, that gets me every time and puts a smile on my face. One of the finest pieces of classical Western music ever written, and one with a real emotional attachment to a lot of people. In fact, pretty much all of this original trilogy character themes get a work-out in TLJ (moreorless note for note) too, as if there is an now an almost an expectation this movie might be his [SW] swansong. I hope he does get to finish this trilogy out, though.

Already some fans really hate it; most critics seem to like it, although everyone seems to agree was too long. I came out the theatre having really, really enjoyed it, with a big fucking smile on my face, and ultimately, that's the goal of these types of movies.

Oh, it's occasionally a bit dumb, and it's not as nearly clever as writer-director Rian Johnson almost certainly thinks he's been. The Force powers seem to be randomly made up as a convenience, and characters' abilities to use those abilities seem to come and go as needed by the drama required to drive the scene. A couple of characters are rather wasted, like Snoke. And yes, it's too long, although personally I didn't mind the much-maligned Canto stuff, so unlike Blade Runner 2049, I don't know that I'd want it cut. But then being totally objective, it's undeniable that Finn/Rose's story could have been removed entirely and it would have had no impact on the rest of the actual movie, which makes Finn, despite another excellent showing from Boyega, a bit wasted, and that whole plot a circular diversion. And even while I didn't mind the Canto arc, it's true that Del Toro's character is rubbish, and, worse, badly performed. I also felt the cross-cutting between all the concurrent stories was a little off.

On the plus side, The Last Jedi is genuinely funny at times, while not afraid to go to some dark places and consider some serious, although slightly underwritten, issues. Other than Del Toro, the performances were excellent. The film looks gorgeous, the battle on the salt plains is a fucking, jaw-dropping brilliant piece of design. And crucially, it's nice to see big action set pieces where it was possible pretty much always follow the action and understand it. BB-8 is still the MVP (although I'd not disagree if anyone wants to say he's become a cartoon; yeah, he's stupidly overpowered, but fuck it, he's really funny... so, pfff). Ridley continues to do solid work developing Rey. And Carrie... yes, it's clear from the end of the movie, that her loss was a massive problem to where they were probably going to take her character in the third film. That's pretty heartbreaking. :(

At this point, though, it's clear ESB will probably always be the best Star Wars movie: ESB is a great movie, period. After a rewatch I suspect TLJ will slot under ESB and ANH or ROTJ as the third or fourth best Star Wars movie for most people. (ROTJ has major structural issues, especially in its second half, but the Luke-Vader-Palpatine scenes are perhaps the best character work any SW movie yet made, so overall ROTJ holds up pretty well. I loved the movie as a 10 year old, then hated it "because Ewoks" in my late tees and through my 20s, and now in my 40s on the last rewatch I found now I'm rather more forgiving and don't mind them so much, because the Hamill-McDiarmid confrontation is so, so good).

After a night musing on The Last Jedi, an immediate feel-good 8/10 reaction is probably a well-earned 7.8 on reflection. A couple of scenes are especially problematic, one of those is utterly terrible and very ill-conceived on every level, especially the visual; and having finished on a brilliant, very emotional shot of the Rebels, cue musi... oh, wait there's now an "extra" scene at the end which unfortunately undercuts the emotional resonance. Your response my vary, but personally, it just gave me flashblacks to Jake Lloyd. That's not the type of lasting image one wants ;)

So, a really good Star Wars movie, slightly undermined by a couple of moments of poor judgment in the edit suite.

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15 Dec 2017

If only Luke had a combinator.

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EnochLight
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15 Dec 2017

Didn't read any posts above, because I am seeing it tonight in about 11 hours. I'll be back later to share my completely spoiler-laden thoughts! ;) :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Gorgon
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15 Dec 2017

They die!!! They ALLL DIE!!! Aahhaahhhha!!!!!!
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JiggeryPokery
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15 Dec 2017

Gorgon wrote:
15 Dec 2017
They die!!! They ALLL DIE!!! Aahhaahhhha!!!!!!
:lol:

What you said was true, from a certain point of view!

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EnochLight
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15 Dec 2017

JiggeryPokery wrote:
15 Dec 2017
No actual plot spoilers in this post... but I do refer to a couple of things in as non-specific a way as possible, but if wanting to go in really clean... avoid reading. And bigger spoilerage in subsequent responses might be far more specific. ;)
______

There's something about John William's main theme, the way that first blast punctuates the main title card, that gets me every time and puts a smile on my face. One of the finest pieces of classical Western music ever written, and one with a real emotional attachment to a lot of people. In fact, pretty much all of this original trilogy character themes get a work-out in TLJ (moreorless note for note) too, as if there is an now an almost an expectation this movie might be his [SW] swansong. I hope he does get to finish this trilogy out, though.

Already some fans really hate it; most critics seem to like it, although everyone seems to agree was too long. I came out the theatre having really, really enjoyed it, with a big fucking smile on my face, and ultimately, that's the goal of these types of movies.

Oh, it's occasionally a bit dumb, and it's not as nearly clever as writer-director Rian Johnson almost certainly thinks he's been. The Force powers seem to be randomly made up as a convenience, and characters' abilities to use those abilities seem to come and go as needed by the drama required to drive the scene. A couple of characters are rather wasted, like Snoke. And yes, it's too long, although personally I didn't mind the much-maligned Canto stuff, so unlike Blade Runner 2049, I don't know that I'd want it cut. But then being totally objective, it's undeniable that Finn/Rose's story could have been removed entirely and it would have had no impact on the rest of the actual movie, which makes Finn, despite another excellent showing from Boyega, a bit wasted, and that whole plot a circular diversion. And even while I didn't mind the Canto arc, it's true that Del Toro's character is rubbish, and, worse, badly performed. I also felt the cross-cutting between all the concurrent stories was a little off.

On the plus side, The Last Jedi is genuinely funny at times, while not afraid to go to some dark places and consider some serious, although slightly underwritten, issues. Other than Del Toro, the performances were excellent. The film looks gorgeous, the battle on the salt plains is a fucking, jaw-dropping brilliant piece of design. And crucially, it's nice to see big action set pieces where it was possible pretty much always follow the action and understand it. BB-8 is still the MVP (although I'd not disagree if anyone wants to say he's become a cartoon; yeah, he's stupidly overpowered, but fuck it, he's really funny... so, pfff). Ridley continues to do solid work developing Rey. And Carrie... yes, it's clear from the end of the movie, that her loss was a massive problem to where they were probably going to take her character in the third film. That's pretty heartbreaking. :(

At this point, though, it's clear ESB will probably always be the best Star Wars movie: ESB is a great movie, period. After a rewatch I suspect TLJ will slot under ESB and ANH or ROTJ as the third or fourth best Star Wars movie for most people. (ROTJ has major structural issues, especially in its second half, but the Luke-Vader-Palpatine scenes are perhaps the best character work any SW movie yet made, so overall ROTJ holds up pretty well. I loved the movie as a 10 year old, then hated it "because Ewoks" in my late tees and through my 20s, and now in my 40s on the last rewatch I found now I'm rather more forgiving and don't mind them so much, because the Hamill-McDiarmid confrontation is so, so good).

After a night musing on The Last Jedi, an immediate feel-good 8/10 reaction is probably a well-earned 7.8 on reflection. A couple of scenes are especially problematic, one of those is utterly terrible and very ill-conceived on every level, especially the visual; and having finished on a brilliant, very emotional shot of the Rebels, cue musi... oh, wait there's now an "extra" scene at the end which unfortunately undercuts the emotional resonance. Your response my vary, but personally, it just gave me flashblacks to Jake Lloyd. That's not the type of lasting image one wants ;)

So, a really good Star Wars movie, slightly undermined by a couple of moments of poor judgment in the edit suite.
[[ SPOILERS AHEAD ]]

So I just got out.

I. FUCK'N. LOVED IT.

Yeah, there's definitely some pacing issues, and the Fin/Rose arc did seem like it was a little out of place... but I'm willing to forgive it all in the grande scheme of propelling the story. Every major battle scene was pure poetry - from the opening battle, to the middle battle, to the execution of Snoke, to the first end battle that saw Vice Admiral Amilyn Holdo pull a Kamakazi-light-speed missile (FUCK'N EPIC) to take down that Dreadnaut destroyer, to the last end battle on the salt planet... just brilliant. I vocally let out a deep laugh on more than several occasions - far more than I ever did in any film in the series before it (including Force Awakens). The Jedi-teleporting trick that Luke did to "battle" Kylo Ren was fuck'n awesome, right down to ripping off Han Solo's "see ya' later, kid" line at the end.

I had some issues at first. I was let down with Rey's lineage (or lack thereof) story, but all was redeemed at the end when that kid on the casino planet clearly Force-wielded his broom into his hand to clean up. The message is: there's all of these Force-sensitive kids all over, just average nobodies... and Rey is one of them. This is the "hope" that Lea and Luke meant... and this ties in to the carnage that occurred into the prequels - the murder of all Jedi and Force sensitive kids that Anakin carried out. The story/legend of what Luke did on the salt planet is the glimmer of hope that's going to influence these kids to fight.

It makes me wonder if the final chapter in this new trilogy will fast-forward more years than we'd be accustomed to, just to use that as part of the story. These kids grow up, join the fight, Lea dies of old age (thus removing the need to explain what happened to Carrie)...

I dunno' man... I have a lot of feels for this one. I think I'm going to enjoy re-watching this one much more than I did Force Awakens. There's just a TON of shit that happened... it's like Empire and ROTJ all rolled onto one, plus a few episodes of serialized TV all in one package.

I think Rian J pulled off a masterpiece. Sure, it's long. But I'm glad I'll get to spend more time in the universe he helped create. It was bad ass.

Assorted musings:

- an actual puppet Yoda!!!! And he was the kooky Yoda from Empire - not the stoic cynic from the prequels. HELL YES.
- Seriously - that first scene were Lea became a space pop sickle - I lost it. Fuck'n wept like a baby. AND SHE FORCE WIELDED HERSELF BACK TO THE SHIP!!!! HELL YES!!!!
- Lea/Luke reunion was awesome, and the gravity of it was driven home even more since he was never really there in the first place.
- Waterworld where Luke exiled himself had twin suns!
- Rey/Chewie can fly the Falcon LIKE A MOTHER FUCK'N BOSS.
- Poe is a god. Full stop.
- Nice touch seeing Gwendolyn Christie's eye under the helmet when Fin busted her up. They're all human underneath that armor!
- Force-teleported ghost-Luke, while battling Kylo Ben on the salt planet, was noticeably thin and had a beard with no grey. That should have been our first hint that things were not what they seemed!
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JiggeryPokery
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16 Dec 2017

EnochLight wrote:
15 Dec 2017

[[ SPOILERS AHEAD ]]

So I just got out.

I. FUCK'N. LOVED IT.

Yeah, there's definitely some pacing issues, and the Fin/Rose arc did seem like it was a little out of place... but I'm willing to forgive it all in the grande scheme of propelling the story. Every major battle scene was pure poetry - from the opening battle, to the middle battle, to the execution of Snoke, to the first end battle that saw Vice Admiral Amilyn Holdo pull a Kamakazi-light-speed missile (FUCK'N EPIC) to take down that Dreadnaut destroyer, to the last end battle on the salt planet... just brilliant. I vocally let out a deep laugh on more than several occasions - far more than I ever did in any film in the series before it (including Force Awakens). The Jedi-teleporting trick that Luke did to "battle" Kylo Ren was fuck'n awesome, right down to ripping off Han Solo's "see ya' later, kid" line at the end.

I had some issues at first. I was let down with Rey's lineage (or lack thereof) story, but all was redeemed at the end when that kid on the casino planet clearly Force-wielded his broom into his hand to clean up. The message is: there's all of these Force-sensitive kids all over, just average nobodies... and Rey is one of them. This is the "hope" that Lea and Luke meant... and this ties in to the carnage that occurred into the prequels - the murder of all Jedi and Force sensitive kids that Anakin carried out. The story/legend of what Luke did on the salt planet is the glimmer of hope that's going to influence these kids to fight.

It makes me wonder if the final chapter in this new trilogy will fast-forward more years than we'd be accustomed to, just to use that as part of the story. These kids grow up, join the fight, Lea dies of old age (thus removing the need to explain what happened to Carrie)...

I dunno' man... I have a lot of feels for this one. I think I'm going to enjoy re-watching this one much more than I did Force Awakens. There's just a TON of shit that happened... it's like Empire and ROTJ all rolled onto one, plus a few episodes of serialized TV all in one package.

I think Rian J pulled off a masterpiece. Sure, it's long. But I'm glad I'll get to spend more time in the universe he helped create. It was bad ass.

Assorted musings:

- an actual puppet Yoda!!!! And he was the kooky Yoda from Empire - not the stoic cynic from the prequels. HELL YES.
- Seriously - that first scene were Lea became a space pop sickle - I lost it. Fuck'n wept like a baby. AND SHE FORCE WIELDED HERSELF BACK TO THE SHIP!!!! HELL YES!!!!
- Lea/Luke reunion was awesome, and the gravity of it was driven home even more since he was never really there in the first place.
- Waterworld where Luke exiled himself had twin suns!
- Rey/Chewie can fly the Falcon LIKE A MOTHER FUCK'N BOSS.
- Poe is a god. Full stop.
- Nice touch seeing Gwendolyn Christie's eye under the helmet when Fin busted her up. They're all human underneath that armor!
- Force-teleported ghost-Luke, while battling Kylo Ben on the salt planet, was noticeably thin and had a beard with no grey. That should have been our first hint that things were not what they seemed!
I really want to do a rewatch. I've found TFA to be surprisingly rewatchable; I checked back in with it just the previous week and despite the too obvious attempts to riff on ANH, it's really fun. I think partly it's that a lot of effort was made to introduce the new characters thoroughly, and not soley through words either. Most of Rey's setup is purely visual, for example. And Finn's intro too, when he's still a faceless stormtrooper, is wordless. I remember watching it the first time in cinema, when the bloody hand rubs against his helmet cynically thinking (and remember, this is the first scene, where I suspect most people are still worried this entire project could burn us like The Phantom Menace did) "oh, right, so that's just so we can track that character". Well, yes, it was, but in fact it was a simple but clever device. JJ, for all his faults as a storyteller, is a brilliant character creator, and maybe early Kasdan's influence helped keep the story on track. It'll be interesting to see if Kasdan comes back for the conclusion.

Some other commentator (on DoG I think) wondered if they might opt for a time jump to deal with removing Leia. Maybe. I wonder if they might move a lot of her possible function to a Force Ghost Luke? Luke implies to Ren that he'd always haunt him if he was struck down in anger, so I wonder if they'll go down the "Crichten-Scorpius/Baltar-Six" route in the Luke/Ren relationship, and not just as a guide to Rey.

I also did an internal cheer to see Yoda done (moreorless) right. (Did you think the ghost effect didn't seem to match the more translucent apparitions of the OT, though?). There's a really good Yoda joke in there too, as he blows up the tree. The reveal at the end that Rey had already removed the books to Falcon, which Yoda knew. Very neat. With that kind of word parsing, he should work for PH marketing. Everything is true, from a certain point of view, and with only half the facts!

How the fuck did Rey get back onto the Falcon after her confrontation with Ren? When she showed up I was a bit "eh?" Of all the things they could have cut and didn't... they cut the one moment that actually creates some real confusion in the storytelling :roll: It's not like Han showing up at the end of ANH, we knew he was on the Falcon off-screen: when Rey shows up, she was last seen on the Star Destroyer. I can't recall what instuctions Chewie was given, but the impression I had was that he was sent to join the Fleet. So their sudden reappearance together to take out a load of Ties and save the day, Han-like, comes literally out of nowhere. I need to rewatch that bit where she departs the Falcon.

It was the Leia space scene that I really did not like; it was shoddy imo. Why, if they're going to make her Force skills so powerful (us having never seen her use The Force before) did she not just prevent herself being spaced in the first place? As an untrained Force user, the end result that she goes into a coma due to the stress for half the movie wouldn't have changed. Sure, it might not have been quite so dramatic, and might even be seen as a bit lazy, but it wouldn't have come off as so cheesy: given Carrie's death it felt to me somewhat cheap. I do note that Hamill and Co stated on Graham Norton last night that nothing changed from the script, but given the real world change, I can't help but feel not changing and sticking to the original design has resulted in a rather an intentional fake-out based on sadness for her real-world loss. But maybe if it had just looked better I'd have given it a pass. It just didn't look good imo.

I was actually more upset by the (temporary) death of Rose. Those bastards do this to us deliberately! :twisted:

"Poe is a god"... I think the whole point of the movie as far as Poe is concerned, is that he ISN'T the great tactician he thinks he is: in fact, the film explicitly makes clear that he's viewed as young hot head, and one who's gambled every fighting resource the Resistence has left, and lost. And that's presumably an imporant part of his arc. He should have learned a big lession now, and the last movie I expect will offer him redemption, and he'll grow into the leadership role required of him with the loss of Holdo and, presumably, Leia.

The closing epilogue - maybe I was a bit harsh above. My original reaction was predicated on totally expecting the end titles right after it cuts to the Falcon in the lightspeed tunnel, which would have been spot-on.

I get the idea of the epilogue thematically, and I genuinely loved the very understated way the kid "grabbed" the broom, that did make me laugh) so it was cool, but it was still a bit odd. Was the idea that he's seeing the Falcon in flight? IIRC it was a jump cut (there were no old school screen-wipes in the movie, apparently), so that should indicate the sequence is directly after the last shot of the Falcon. In which case, how do the kids in the stables of Canto Bight already know of the battle, and Luke's involvement? How convenient is it that the Falcon happens to pass right by Canto Bight, wherever it's headed? (It took Finn and Rose ages to get from the Fleet to Canto Bight... but I'll give the issue of time and distance a pass... they're all in the Falcon now ... less than 12 parsecs and all that* ;) )

But notion that Rey was just an average joe I did think was brilliant, and it's so obvious. And yet afaik, no-one thought of it! Fantastic decision, and I really, really hope it doesn't get reconned. I thought Rey's vision sequence was stunning, and revealing her parentage as herself. And you're right about linking it back to the Younglings of the prequels. But the prequels don't exist :lol: There are no prequels. Search your feelings, Enoch. You know it to be to true!

I also thought the de-aging of Hamill was really bloody well done; obviously it's "obvious", but it wasn't... "off putting". If that makes sense, I can't quite find the word to describe the feeling. But so much better than the weird, uncanny valley CGI renditions of Leia and Tarkin in Rogue One.

I've read some criticisms of the opening scene and the complete reduction of Hux as a important character into one merely of comic relief. On the one hand, I agree making Hux in a complete imbecile is poor in terms of long-term storytelling options. On the other, I was laughing like a 12 year old. So... :lol: But DoG UK, who strangely were one of the few negative reviewers, did make one good point I do totally agree with: with Snoke's death, Hux now just a moron and Ren just naive and/or mad, there is no canon personnel in the First Order who could ever seriously control it. Even a nearly broken resistance could probably easily recover if the off-screen "allies" we heard spoken of also see the First Order's weakness . Now, maybe that might well end up being a plot point in Ep IX, or an interim canon storyline outside the movies, that the First Order will just self-implode, and the last movie becomes more personal. But then it risks just becoming Rey vs Ren, and not giving enough for Finn and Poe to do.

Johnson killed Greg Grunberg in the opening scene! I lol'd. That's gonna hurt JJ! ;) Shame about Admiral Ackbar, though. It was, indeed, a trap. It's always a trap.

(I just read the BBC web review: Gompertz loved Del Toro... geez. Ronnie Barker could do a fake stutter and make it both funny and endearing. Del Toro just looks like he's doing it for a cheap laugh and a lazy shortcut to character building. Very poor.)


Hehe, reading all this probably makes me look like I didn't like it, but truth is, none of those issues change the fact I sat there for two and half hours with a big fucking grin on my face. Unlike TFA though I probably won't do a second cinema visit, but I can't wait to Blu this in the comfort of home on my 2.5m projection screen, with the added benefit of getting to pause it for a toilet break before the Canto stuff. So, it can only get better! :D


___


* That doesn't really work either: if the Falcon is a particularly fast ship... how do all the ships jump in lightspeed at the same time: we know this because they all leave and arrive at the same time. This might suggest that the Falcon is only especially fast at sub-light speeds, and all ships jump at the same velocity, or whatever, at lightspeed. But all those old Ties seem to have little trouble keeping up with it in sub-light, let alone the more advanced models! I really should stop overthinking this... :lol:

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16 Dec 2017

It was absolutely awesome. Saw it last night at the IMAX.

One of the best Star Wars movies ever and I'm a huge Star Wars fan.
Just to be clear. I'm of an age where I saw Episode 4 in the cinema as a child and it blew my mind and was a life changer.

One last thing. EP 1,2 and 3 are shite and don't exist for me.

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EnochLight
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16 Dec 2017

JiggeryPokery wrote:
16 Dec 2017
* That doesn't really work either: if the Falcon is a particularly fast ship... how do all the ships jump in lightspeed at the same time: we know this because they all leave and arrive at the same time. This might suggest that the Falcon is only especially fast at sub-light speeds, and all ships jump at the same velocity, or whatever, at lightspeed. But all those old Ties seem to have little trouble keeping up with it in sub-light, let alone the more advanced models! I really should stop overthinking this... :lol:
Well, we all know that Rey bypassed the compressor, and that always helps! :lol:

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17 Dec 2017

There w as a oment where P Leia says 'that's it, the light's gone out' and I though...Yeah it fuckin has, on the whole franchise!

Actually I liked it well enough. It was shit but who cares anymore.
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plaamook
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18 Dec 2017

Mostly I think they just crammed too much in and changed direction too much.
I don't know why they just killed Luke off. I don't know why they were lazy with character developement. I don't see how even the force could have got Leia back from hard vacuum. Or how it is that Rey (and this goes back to the last one) is such a badaasss without any training at all. Or anyone else. It's too much of a push. I don't see how they just killed everyone else off or why. Or what the point to the stupid casino scene was.

But the production was great. The fights were good. And we all finally got to see something make the jump to hyperspace THROUGH something!!! Turns out, it really isn't like dusting crops after all eh? ;)
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tt_lab
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18 Dec 2017

I like Star wars a lot...Me too went to watch ep4 as a child.
I must say, that I enjoyed the movie because I enjoy everything that has a SW logo on it. Cartoons, books, comics etc...
But, sometimes I thought I was watching a Jerry Lewis film(and I'm not saying this in a good way). The movie has a lot of errors, I mean, for example, suddenly Rey doesn´t know nothing about the force and in the next battle she can control objects etc.
Another thing that I didn´t like, was that the whole movie was full of "Final Epic Battles" I mean, like trying to create tension with no other excuse every 10 minutes, and thus, not leaving the story to grow in any directions...And DelToro,WTF was that?

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EnochLight
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18 Dec 2017

tt_lab wrote:
18 Dec 2017
But, sometimes I thought I was watching a Jerry Lewis film(and I'm not saying this in a good way).
There is absolutely no way this could be said in a good way. I mean, unless you're French (in which case, we'll forgive you since we exported Jerry Lewis in an attempt to get rid of him). ;) :lol: :lol:
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plaamook
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18 Dec 2017

tt_lab wrote:
18 Dec 2017
And DelToro,WTF was that?
That was bad film making is what that was.
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EnochLight
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18 Dec 2017

I love the fact the hardcore Star Wars fans are split. Seems like the people who didn't like it have a fundamental issue with their tropes being subverted. They didn’t want their tropes to be subverted, they wanted Poe to succeed, they wanted Finn to succeed, they wanted Rey to come from somewhere, they wanted Snoke to be the big bad and more than anything they wanted Luke to fly his X-wing down during that final scene and wreck the shit out of the First Order then beat the piss out of Kylo Ren with the force.

When none of that happened, well, this is what you get.

Is Rey the daughter of someone who was important in canon? Nah, fuck that. She’s just the child of nobody who sold her for drinking money. Also, she is a self made hero. <= THIS ALONE IS EPIC.

Is Poe the reckless hotshot here to save the day? Nope, he’s going to get a lot of folks killed and end up getting demoted.

Is Rey going to save the big baddie and turn him to the light side? Nope. He’s a fucking asshole, and you shouldn’t have even bothered trying to save him. Oh and also, Snope is no one we'll ever find out anything about because he's dead before the 3rd act. Haha!

I read this somewhere and it really makes sense:
Rey’s time poking around the Dark Side and the supposedly disappointing reveal put me over the moon. She was given a truth in that moment, and it’s as you said — Rey is self-made. Rey built herself up into the person she needed to be. Her parents are comparatively inconsequential, imo.
This film was far from perfect, but it was an incredible Star Wars film and easily up there with Empire. So many layers to dig through.
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Aosta
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18 Dec 2017

Star Wars, Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi original (without the crappy CGI)..everything else is just a reboot cash grab.
Tend the flame

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motuscott
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18 Dec 2017

They die!!! They ALLL DIE!!! Aahhaahhhha!!!!!
That's how it works, right?
Who’s using the royal plural now baby? 🧂

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EnochLight
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18 Dec 2017

motuscott wrote:
18 Dec 2017
They die!!! They ALLL DIE!!! Aahhaahhhha!!!!!
That's how it works, right?
Well Luke dies (eventually). Also Snoke. Which seems to be much to the disdain of many a SW-nerd. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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JiggeryPokery
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18 Dec 2017

EnochLight wrote:
18 Dec 2017
I love the fact the hardcore Star Wars fans are split. Seems like the people who didn't like it have a fundamental issue with their tropes being subverted. They didn’t want their tropes to be subverted, they wanted Poe to succeed, they wanted Finn to succeed, they wanted Rey to come from somewhere, they wanted Snoke to be the big bad and more than anything they wanted Luke to fly his X-wing down during that final scene and wreck the shit out of the First Order then beat the piss out of Kylo Ren with the force.

When none of that happened, well, this is what you get.

Is Rey the daughter of someone who was important in canon? Nah, fuck that. She’s just the child of nobody who sold her for drinking money. Also, she is a self made hero. <= THIS ALONE IS EPIC.

Is Poe the reckless hotshot here to save the day? Nope, he’s going to get a lot of folks killed and end up getting demoted.

Is Rey going to save the big baddie and turn him to the light side? Nope. He’s a fucking asshole, and you shouldn’t have even bothered trying to save him. Oh and also, Snope is no one we'll ever find out anything about because he's dead before the 3rd act. Haha!
Yup. those three things were definite highlights for me too, although I agree with others that Poe not being informed of the plan to save all the personnel is a pretty massive forced plotpoint, right up there with conveniently not shooting the escape pod at the start of A New Hope! ;)

I think perhaps it a bit of a shame though that, without necessarily killing the Finn/Rose relationship, which I really liked even if their overall plot was pointless, we didn't get more of Rey and Luke. tt_lab is perhaps right to an extent: maybe there was perhaps one action scene too many. Apparently there are a lot of deleted scenes, so it will interesting to see gets revealed in the bonus features.

Oh and the fact that Rey is a just a "nobody" has really gotten the bloody bleedin' "Mary Sue" brigade out again, and in ... Force. :roll: :lol:

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EnochLight
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18 Dec 2017

JiggeryPokery wrote:
18 Dec 2017
Oh and the fact that Rey is a just a "nobody" has really gotten the bloody bleedin' "Mary Sue" brigade out again, and in ... Force. :roll: :lol:
Hahah! Well, I say this reluctantly as my wife reads the Mary Sue a lot, but they have a tendency to...

missed_point.png
missed_point.png (3.72 KiB) Viewed 2741 times
:lol: :lol: :lol:

Making Rey a self-made hero with no apparent/relevant heritage to the canon was probably one of the smartest things done in the entire series (except for Vader being Luke and Leia's father). The Skywalker story is being brought to a close (for the most part, Leia notwithstanding) - it's time to see the stories of everyone else not related to them, and this gives the films that opportunity. Clearly the kids at the end re-telling stories of the rebellion and the kid Force-wielding a broomstick is alluding to this, and I'm totally fine with that.

I have to say, I was completely fine with the multitude of battle/action scenes, though. Every one of them was beautifully choreographed and added to the story, IMHO (well, save the for the Canto casino thing).
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Lizard
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18 Dec 2017

Since the spoilers are out.....

I have been a fan since day one so it's hard to not watch them or anything in namesake anymore but this one as part of the original story line left me largely disappointed. The film is artistically done very well and in many part very majestic. That said I found several flaws that are hard to overlook. Such as :

1. The one character you do expect to die based on circumstances (Liea) doesn't. You THINK she does... but no. Now when the opportunity to clean that up comes they have gone past it and next time it is going to feel even weirder.
2. Princess Leia flying through space.... using the force!!?!?!?..... Has she ever?! What?
3. Everything Finn and Rose did was useless. All it was supposed to move to a point where the rebels could all get away but fell flat. A waste of time at the casinos really. It also introduced a character (Del Toro) that had no relevance to plot line. And... as if there are already too many character stories we already know zero about. Thank god we get to kill some of them off before they get to develop. Like...
4. Snoke - What is his story? Origins? How he came to power? Is it even important?!!! If we learn more in episode IX will it have any impact now that he is dead? Was kind of hoping that we would see some tie to Vader or Palpatine in some way. If not then where was he when the empire was at it's peak?
5. Phasma - Between the two movies she has about 6 minutes of air time. What is her story? Does it even matter? We do not know that she is truly dead but chances are good I think. I was hoping she would have more of a story in this one. Wrong.
6. I kind of expected Luke's time to end but I really hoped that it was in a little more glorious of a fashion. His character deserved better. Fading away into the force is lame. Understand why it happened to Yoda. Kinda understand why for Ben Kenobi... but for Luke? No suggestion he was in any bad health either. I never would have thought projecting yourself was a death defying Jedi Trick. Learn something every day I guess.
7. Totally out of character for Luke to feel he needed to end a family member's life because it was swaying to the dark side. What did he fight for with his own father is episode IV?! Wouldn't that experience have only given him greater strength to deal with this kind of thing? That concept is all wack-a-doodle IMO.
8. Rey coming from.... nobody. I don't care for it but I can accept it. I can accept it with some suggestion to why though. The whole concept of the force being in balance might have been better discussed here. With the execution of order 66 to kill all the Jedi this could have been the Force's way to balance things. Create more force sensitive people like Rey... the kids at the end of the movie to replenish what has been lost. I'd like to believe that's why they are emerging. But because Kylo said she came from nobody doesn't mean she still does. Will have to see with that.

I'll probably have more gripes but these are my larger ones. It isn't one or two things as there are several. This many and the rapid departure from the galaxy as we know it make it not as palatable for me.

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JiggeryPokery
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18 Dec 2017

EnochLight wrote:
18 Dec 2017

I have to say, I was completely fine with the multitude of battle/action scenes, though. Every one of them was beautifully choreographed and added to the story, IMHO (well, save the for the Canto casino thing).
Yeah, the chase at the end of the Canto sequence could have been shortened somewhat.

But the other actions scenes were not only stunning and well choreographed, but very well filmed and edited. How many action sequences do we see these days in movies where it's near impossible to follow the action because of tight framing and fast cutting? Even viewed in 3D (and I'm not a big fan of converted 3D when the original 2D is perfectly adequate, but friends keep bloody booking the 3D showings), TLJ managed to achieve great visual scope while allowing me as a viewer to maintain a sense of knowing what the hell was going on, and to whom.

(You know, I can imagine that after the Blu or 4K release, some wag will do an edit of The Last Jedi that has Finn in the coma up until they reach Crait, removing every trace of Finn/Rose's arc until that point. "The De-Monte Carloed Edition" :lol: .)

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18 Dec 2017

The more I think about it. The more I'm starting to wonder if this is going to be my favourite movie of all time. I can't remember enjoying a movie as much as this in a long time. It was awesome.

It certainly is up there in my top 5.

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EnochLight
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18 Dec 2017

JiggeryPokery wrote:
18 Dec 2017
EnochLight wrote:
18 Dec 2017

I have to say, I was completely fine with the multitude of battle/action scenes, though. Every one of them was beautifully choreographed and added to the story, IMHO (well, save the for the Canto casino thing).
Yeah, the chase at the end of the Canto sequence could have been shortened somewhat.

But the other actions scenes were not only stunning and well choreographed, but very well filmed and edited. How many action sequences do we see these days in movies where it's near impossible to follow the action because of tight framing and fast cutting? Even viewed in 3D (and I'm not a big fan of converted 3D when the original 2D is perfectly adequate, but friends keep bloody booking the 3D showings), TLJ managed to achieve great visual scope while allowing me as a viewer to maintain a sense of knowing what the hell was going on, and to whom.

(You know, I can imagine that after the Blu or 4K release, some wag will do an edit of The Last Jedi that has Finn in the coma up until they reach Crait, removing every trace of Finn/Rose's arc until that point. "The De-Monte Carloed Edition" :lol: .)
Totally agree. Dunkirk comes to mind - as I just watched it. When I compare it to Saving Ryan's Privates, where the battles were not only visceral but easy to follow and beautifully choreographed, I found Dunkirk a jumbled mess to follow by comparison (as far as battles are concerned). It was a brilliant movie, though. Probably one of the best WW2 films to come out since Saving Ryan's Privates.

Every major battle in TLJ was just brilliantly filmed and choreographed.
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madmacman
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21 Dec 2017

While I consider myself a big fan of SW, I didn't like TLJ at all. And it was not a bad movie. But I'm getting tired of the storyline "empire rises and falls and rises again" and the brave rebels must fight the dark side of the force. We have seen this in its entirety in episodes 4-6, and a back story tediously extended to episodes 1-3. I must confess I never really got the "twist" why after the rebel's victory and the end of the empire, they could rise and re-power within less of a generation (30 years) as told us in TFA. But maybe I'm too much into that "classic" story, because I found Rogue One very entertaining and felt more comfortable with its storyline.

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