2 tier europe after brexit

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demt
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08 Sep 2017



deserves more on two tier europe but brexit 1
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Gaja
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09 Sep 2017

From my perspective Britain is engaged in a massive act of self harm right now. Brexit - if it's going to be of any benifit for anyone- will take a decade or to before it could help anyone. But first a lot more British children will starve, sick people will go uncared for because the NHS won't have enough staff to actually work the way it was designed to, for one because EU citizens in Britain appear to be treated like pests, so the about 30% of EU nurses and doctors in the NHS are going to leave, and also because the NHS is being sold away, as recommended by the nalor report. A lot of pain for those who can't afford. At the moment you have some of the most incompetent people ever in government, trying to negotiate the most difficult agreement of all time, namely being a part of the EU while not contributing to it. Which won't work. All the world is laughing at the way Brexit is being handled. And frankly it hurts to look at it. And all this is basically happening because rich people don't want to pay taxes.
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Fredhoven

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demt
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09 Sep 2017

so everywon finally knows the problem helps , like its a new light on the scene that carnt be ignored and has rattled new meaning into the debate on what europe is and where it can go!
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Gaja
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09 Sep 2017

Nobody said that Europe is perfect. But it's nowhere near as bad as murdoch's media had the British believe for the last decades. Especially not for Britain, which was given rebates and bonuses by the EU. Britain leaving might help Europe redefine its direction or agenda or identity, but millions of brits ans EU expats in the UK are going to suffer, families are going to be ripped apart and possibly the UK as well. Brits should be on the streets demonstrating the cruelty of their "government" right now.
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Fredhoven

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miscend
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09 Sep 2017

Brexiters have said they are happy to face any of the consequences of brexit. Even if it means a smaller economy and less influence in the world.

avasopht
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18 Sep 2017

Brexit is basically a case of whether England becomes China's Hong Kong or China's Tibet :shock:

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Gaja
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22 Sep 2017

Brexit will damage Europe, in the same way your suit is ruined, if the person right next to you is shooting themselves in the foot. (From some guardian article)
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Fredhoven

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25 Sep 2017

Gaja wrote:
22 Sep 2017
Brexit will damage Europe, in the same way your suit is ruined, if the person right next to you is shooting themselves in the foot. (From some guardian article)
On the other hand It could also improve Europe.

At the end of the day whatever any pundits say now is just speculation.

It was a stupid decision to offer a referendum to the British people at the time and one that was cynically called in order to help keep the then government in power. A silly (and failed) move IMO as Britian would have had more bargaining power and influence over any future Brexit by being in the club during any negotiations. The consequences of it though will not be apparent until we see whether Britain trades better or worse outside of the 'Euro cartel'.

Certainly it will help toward a less autocratic EU if Britian shows it can thrive outside of it.

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Gaja
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25 Sep 2017

Yes that is indeed a possibility. I'm mainly angry about the way the referendum had been conducted, people have been seriously lied to. It looks like it's just a move to save corporations from paying "too much" taxes... and one could argue that May is planning an unbelievable power grab with those Henry VIII powers, basically paving the way for a dictatorship.
And I'm not even British, nor do I have any affiliation with Britain. It's just a matter of principle...
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Fredhoven

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Gorgon
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25 Sep 2017

Brexit isn't going to happen. The powers that be will not let it happen. It's a very scary world we live in.
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Gorgon
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25 Sep 2017

avasopht wrote:
18 Sep 2017
Brexit is basically a case of whether England becomes China's Hong Kong or China's Tibet :shock:
That's a pretty dumb thing to say, before the EU Britain was doing just fine.
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avasopht
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25 Sep 2017

Gorgon wrote:
25 Sep 2017
That's a pretty dumb thing to say, before the EU Britain was doing just fine.
Britain doing fine before the EU does not mean the situation today is the same. A lack of understanding about macro economics can easily trip people up.

The entire dynamics of trade changes, which in turn changes the economic decisions of how we source produce, which changes the entire landscape of the job economy, which changes the economic dynamics of education and business. How much by? Could be 4%, could be 10%. Who knows?

It affects tech startups too. Which can put us at a massive disadvantage relative to mainland Europe. To the laymen Europe is just this place over the pond, but to small business Europe is trading partners and access to skilled workers.

As to why it's a case of whether we turn into Hong Kong or Tibet has to do with the relative growth of GDP. Many investors have pulled out of projects in the UK because of this and the associated costs. Some companies have outright said they're moving base into Europe. If England is no longer a financial hub because of Brexit then that's a fat chunk of GDP lost.

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dioxide
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25 Sep 2017

Gorgon wrote:
25 Sep 2017
avasopht wrote:
18 Sep 2017
Brexit is basically a case of whether England becomes China's Hong Kong or China's Tibet :shock:
That's a pretty dumb thing to say, before the EU Britain was doing just fine.
I don't recall 1970s Britain as being participating prosperous. There wasn't homeless people on every street corner like in 2017 (thanks Tories!) but generally the standard of living was basic and nowhere near what people take for granted today. Manufacturing was a big contributor but there is no turning the clock back on that. I wouldn't want to see people in the UK having to compete with labour costs in China and other countries where the pay is low.

Oh yeah and did I mention fuck Brexit. Everyone in the UK was lied to. I'm in Spain which took a battering with the Eurocrisis but there are more homeless people in the UK thanks to the austerity policies. Things have more or less recovered here but the North of England is still struggling, which is standard for any period of Tory rule. I'm unsure what the gameplay was with Brexit but I saw it as a power grab by the traditional British ruling classes, who were a bit miffed to have seen their power dwindle under the EU. Fuck those guys, they've been fucking over the British working classes since the beginning.

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Gaja
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26 Sep 2017

I totally agree with you dioxide! Tories need to seriously get dissolved! The main reason they exist is their Members want more money. In the last couple of years they had an 11% (yes that's eleven) pay rise, which everyone in Britain paid for, and now apparently there is no magic money tree to pay for police or firefighters or nurses, who just want basic pay rise according to inflation. It's so disgusting.
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Fredhoven

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demt
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27 Sep 2017

Gaja wrote:
26 Sep 2017
I totally agree with you dioxide! Tories need to seriously get dissolved! The main reason they exist is their Members want more money. In the last couple of years they had an 11% (yes that's eleven) pay rise, which everyone in Britain paid for, and now apparently there is no magic money tree to pay for police or firefighters or nurses, who just want basic pay rise according to inflation. It's so disgusting.
unfortunatly i believe that that pay check should be increased in order to share any form of bonding with foreign customers without being bought by the foreigners wealth,in order to promote business between foreign countries that are seriously laughing at us on that front remember we are the lifestyle that lives longest and it is our duty to raise and keep those standerds whilst spreading them to the rest of the world via business
thats what will lead to a new world order in the end
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Gaja
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27 Sep 2017

demt wrote:
Gaja wrote:
26 Sep 2017
I totally agree with you dioxide! Tories need to seriously get dissolved! The main reason they exist is their Members want more money. In the last couple of years they had an 11% (yes that's eleven) pay rise, which everyone in Britain paid for, and now apparently there is no magic money tree to pay for police or firefighters or nurses, who just want basic pay rise according to inflation. It's so disgusting.
unfortunatly i believe that that pay check should be increased in order to share any form of bonding with foreign customers without being bought by the foreigners wealth,in order to promote business between foreign countries that are seriously laughing at us on that front remember we are the lifestyle that lives longest and it is our duty to raise and keep those standerds whilst spreading them to the rest of the world via business
thats what will lead to a new world order in the end
Somehow I don’t understand what you mean. Could you please elaborate (English is not my first language), so that I might understand your message better?
Thank you.
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Fredhoven

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demt
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28 Sep 2017

Tis 9 o'clock in the morning yet England's national health service is still the best health care in the world and England's population lives longest This is a great boon to spread to the rest of the world including through the medium of business and corporate entertainment sum country s that we do business with are fonder of individual, corporate,and governmental wealth for wealth s sake and don't have a health service yet through every medium the gestalt of England's health service is affecting the treatment of people round the world just by dealing with us.sometimes on their monetary footing

Infiltrate and destroy as my anarchist would say
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Gaja
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28 Sep 2017

Thanks for clarifying. How is the NHS quality quantified? Cause like I said from what I read there are about 40.000 vacant jobs in the NHS (most of them nurses), with sick people sleeping in hospital corridors, with the number of people having to wait longer than 12 hours for their treatment having risen 10546% (yes you read that right) since the tories got into power. Also there’s the naylor report which basically suggests selling a NHS to private companies, among others.
So you understand my scepticism about the NHS being the best health care system in the world. Germany has a pretty decent health care system and we don’t see people on corridors or dead people being left in their beds for eight hours.
According to Wikipedia the United Kingdom ranks 20th place in life expectancy...
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Fredhoven

avasopht
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28 Sep 2017

Gaja wrote:
28 Sep 2017
Thanks for clarifying. How is the NHS quality quantified? Cause like I said from what I read there are about 40.000 vacant jobs in the NHS (most of them nurses), with sick people sleeping in hospital corridors, with the number of people having to wait longer than 12 hours for their treatment having risen 10546% (yes you read that right) since the tories got into power. Also there’s the naylor report which basically suggests selling a NHS to private companies, among others.
So you understand my scepticism about the NHS being the best health care system in the world. Germany has a pretty decent health care system and we don’t see people on corridors or dead people being left in their beds for eight hours.
According to Wikipedia the United Kingdom ranks 20th place in life expectancy...
For sure the Tories are running it into the ground (and on purpose to boot).

But prior to that they were pretty awesome.

Of course when we have generalized phrases such as, "sick people sleeping in hospital corridors." we depict a picture that may not be statistically accurate. I know I've not seen that in any of the hospitals I've been to. Statistics are paramount.

Or, "the number of people having to wait longer than 12 hours for their treatment having risen 10546%." What treatments? Are those largely people who are intoxicated with alcohol? Was the wait times extroardinarily low before?

Not to say the NHS is the best, or to defend them. It's just the nature of statements that may be hugely misleading.

But yes, the Tories are deliberately driving the NHS into the ground because of their almost religious faith in free markets being the solution to everything.

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demt
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28 Sep 2017

eh i sayed 9oclock in the morning you can stick -ne critiism at sutch an hour n keep to the +ve n youl live longer vaguely being the general key

loadsa +ve stuff to say as well as a morall duty to err on that side of the equation may mean you have to stand up 4 what you really believe in /live on,like
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Gaja
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29 Sep 2017

I agree on the difficulties of statistics avasopht. I‘m just worried about people in the UK, that’s all. There appears to be a dangerous sense of nationalism in the UK, where British politics seem to be driven by English nationalism, which is rethorically interchanged with unionism, when it comes to scottish nationalism, which seems far less populist and dangerous than what the tories do (and of course those orange order people). As a german I know the dangers of nationalism and I‘m worried about it here too. Only I look to the UK because they’re in a more advanced state of turning into a fascist dictatorship than we are in germany.
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Fredhoven

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plaamook
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29 Sep 2017

I'm worried about the UK too. Been here for a long time (American by birth) and I've basically been watching many of the more positive aspects just disintegrate. NHS being one of them. The last few times I've had dealings with the NHS... It might be better to just go else where at this point. It's fucking chaos in there. At least in London anyway. Misdiagnosed, my daughter misdiagnoised, man the list goes on and on. Not dead people in the halls as such, that's for the head lines, but real proper incompetance and deterioration of quality on all levels.

I don't know about any fascist disctatorships but it's dark days here for sure.

I used to be European...
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avasopht
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29 Sep 2017

One huge problem in healthcare is the stupid 20 minute and one problem consultation limit. That's just not how the body works, and the new doctors are being trained to think in this way.

More experienced doctors know that it's sometimes better to sit down with a person and chart every single problem because there may be a single cause for many symptoms, or they may be on medication to treat symptoms of another pill they're on that doesn't even deal with the root cause, but you can only identify this with a thorough examination.

I'm with you both 100%.

They feed us so much propaganda pie in school too.

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plaamook
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29 Sep 2017

Gorgon wrote:
25 Sep 2017
Brexit isn't going to happen. The powers that be will not let it happen. It's a very scary world we live in.
I wish you were right. For a while I thought it would be like that. That they'd come up with a reason to not do it in the end. But I can't see it now. What will hapen, what has happened, is basically an accident. Cameron and his folk fucked up, came up with a refferendom, loads of wackos sold the wrong ideas to Britain, and now they're going to 'uphold democracy' by following through with it. Like anyone has given a shit about real democracy ever!

The only person making any sense at this point may be feckin Tony Blair!!!

Anyway, I can't handle these conversations about this kind of stuff. Just gets me down with nothing to be done about it. I'm going to bed. Gotta dive in the morning.
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avasopht
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29 Sep 2017

plaamook wrote:
29 Sep 2017
Anyway, I can't handle these conversations about this kind of stuff. Just gets me down with nothing to be done about it. I'm going to bed. Gotta dive in the morning.
Well we are living in the best time in human history, so for all the things wrong about the world this is probably as good as it gets for homosapiens.

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