Are you in control of your own thoughts, actions and decisions?

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Overtherainbow
Posts: 158
Joined: 26 Jun 2022

11 Jul 2022

bxbrkrz wrote:
08 Jul 2022
Observable Universe = Observable Consciousness
We are like a school of fish in an aquarium.
We don't know its size.
We don't know how we get fresh water everyday.
We are 'free' to swim in it forever.
That's quite some fish, conceptualizing about what's beyond the aquarium and how to get there, which would mean that fish is absolutely not free to swim in it forever because it is being pushed out by an innate drive for discovery and betterment - a basis for evolution. Is it free will that makes the fish jump out, topple or shatter the aquarium? Fish occasionally do this, too.

An example of this strange behaviour on a cellular level would be some cell with a basic function and form befitting it, suddenly deciding to become a cancer cell (or a protein becoming a prion on an even smaller scale). That cell then starts growing abnormally ignoring all the "rules" and failsafes of the system, triggers a cascade of events which results in the death of the host system. If that host is a human president, for instance, this could lead to a red button being pushed somewhere, which could result in.... and so on and so forth.

Where does the original cell's decision originate, the one of becoming a prion or a cancerous cell aka not following a function? We know the "how", but we don't know the "why".

On a chemical level this question seems like an equivalent of Hydroperoxyl formation where H2O + O2 = HO2 + OH. We can see in the formula how HO2 formed, but the reaction almost never follows that formula in reality. The question is WHY HO2 is sometimes produced, but not "normally"? Our current system's answer is that, in short, it's random, which means the system is self-contradictory. If it's random, then it's not pre-determined = there's free will involved there somewhere.

What's missing? Okay, suppose the randomness is not random, it just means there's at least another factor X beyond our comprehension affecting the equation, which means the "debate" on free will is far from scientific and having any "conclusions" on it is much too premature. Why does H2O + O2 SOMETIMES equate to HO2 + OH, but most of the time it doesn't? Coincidentally, knowing the answer would allow us to stop and reverse aging on a chemical level, "un-cancer" cells etc.

And how ironical would it be to disprove the existence of free will in this way - by becoming immortal with nothing left to live for, in which case "disproving free will" triggered a self-destruction sequence, a failsafe. The existence of this failsafe, however, would mean we were "not meant" to discover the boundaries of the "not-so-free" will, which, in turn, would be an application and proof of free will (disproving free will would be an act of free will in this case). Double irony. And then there's a very high chance of the failure of the failsafe, just like it fails in cancer and prion diseases... We would have to self-impose a greater irritant than death to pull that off, but it seems doable.

My conclusion: I call BS on anyone claiming "there's no free will" or the opposite in 2022. For the reasons I've mentioned above (but not limited to), our understanding is still too primitive to make any conclusions at this time and we didn't move an inch since 2017 when the thread was started. But it's nice to have some reference points.

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bxbrkrz
Posts: 3814
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

11 Jul 2022

Overtherainbow wrote:
11 Jul 2022
bxbrkrz wrote:
08 Jul 2022
Observable Universe = Observable Consciousness
We are like a school of fish in an aquarium.
We don't know its size.
We don't know how we get fresh water everyday.
We are 'free' to swim in it forever.
That's quite some fish, conceptualizing about what's beyond the aquarium and how to get there, which would mean that fish is absolutely not free to swim in it forever because it is being pushed out by an innate drive for discovery and betterment - a basis for evolution. Is it free will that makes the fish jump out, topple or shatter the aquarium? Fish occasionally do this, too.

An example of this strange behaviour on a cellular level would be some cell with a basic function and form befitting it, suddenly deciding to become a cancer cell (or a protein becoming a prion on an even smaller scale). That cell then starts growing abnormally ignoring all the "rules" and failsafes of the system, triggers a cascade of events which results in the death of the host system. If that host is a human president, for instance, this could lead to a red button being pushed somewhere, which could result in.... and so on and so forth.

Where does the original cell's decision originate, the one of becoming a prion or a cancerous cell aka not following a function? We know the "how", but we don't know the "why".

On a chemical level this question seems like an equivalent of Hydroperoxyl formation where H2O + O2 = HO2 + OH. We can see in the formula how HO2 formed, but the reaction almost never follows that formula in reality. The question is WHY HO2 is sometimes produced, but not "normally"? Our current system's answer is that, in short, it's random, which means the system is self-contradictory. If it's random, then it's not pre-determined = there's free will involved there somewhere.

What's missing? Okay, suppose the randomness is not random, it just means there's at least another factor X beyond our comprehension affecting the equation, which means the "debate" on free will is far from scientific and having any "conclusions" on it is much too premature. Why does H2O + O2 SOMETIMES equate to HO2 + OH, but most of the time it doesn't? Coincidentally, knowing the answer would allow us to stop and reverse aging on a chemical level, "un-cancer" cells etc.

And how ironical would it be to disprove the existence of free will in this way - by becoming immortal with nothing left to live for, in which case "disproving free will" triggered a self-destruction sequence, a failsafe. The existence of this failsafe, however, would mean we were "not meant" to discover the boundaries of the "not-so-free" will, which, in turn, would be an application and proof of free will (disproving free will would be an act of free will in this case). Double irony. And then there's a very high chance of the failure of the failsafe, just like it fails in cancer and prion diseases... We would have to self-impose a greater irritant than death to pull that off, but it seems doable.

My conclusion: I call BS on anyone claiming "there's no free will" or the opposite in 2022. For the reasons I've mentioned above (but not limited to), our understanding is still too primitive to make any conclusions at this time and we didn't move an inch since 2017 when the thread was started. But it's nice to have some reference points.
Observable Universe = Observable Consciousness.
Life. There must be a fundamental force, an energy for it to always be on the move, and to adapt. I guess the first domino of everything pushed itself forward. I believe there is a 'space', a reality between the state of free will, and its opposite.
Any 'big' conclusion of anything is a state of wrongness, waiting to be replaced by another state of wrongness. So it's ok if we've been travelling without moving :puf_smile:
757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

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plaamook
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12 Jul 2022

I don’t really think this thread is about conclusions so much as it’s about playing w an idea.
Both free will and determinism are incomplete ways of see our situation.
It can’t be both but it seems to.
I love the implications of agency (that was for you man...) on a strict material universe. Or what the personal implications of determinism and causality on an agent or free willer.
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MrFigg
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12 Jul 2022

Ask my girlfriend.
🗲 2ॐ ᛉ

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plaamook
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12 Jul 2022

MrFigg wrote:
12 Jul 2022
Ask my girlfriend.
You trying to use this argument to get yourself outta trouble figg?
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MrFigg
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12 Jul 2022

plaamook wrote:
12 Jul 2022
MrFigg wrote:
12 Jul 2022
Ask my girlfriend.
You trying to use this argument to get yourself outta trouble figg?
I didn’t say which girlfriend :)
🗲 2ॐ ᛉ

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motuscott
Posts: 3422
Joined: 16 Jan 2015
Location: Contest Weiner

03 Aug 2022

Ask my Moms
Be sure to catch her sober.

She's been dead for quite a while now, but who's to say there's not binge drinking in Heaven
Who’s using the royal plural now baby? 🧂

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Re8et
Competition Winner
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Joined: 14 Nov 2016

03 Aug 2022

avasopht wrote:
01 Aug 2017
This man knows Akkadian, Sanskrit, Sumerian, it's a Myth!
I followed many of its lessons on Yt.
If I had 1% of it's brain power I'd be perhaps in control of my own decisions...
Brain is a muscle, it has to be trained every day... this guy never stopped training all its life...
I had periods of my life where I had some sort of control over my actions and thoughts,
but the context we live in (perpetual chaos in my case, three years of Covid armageddon...) suggest I have to fight more
time to just keep on going, never mind training my brain...

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Re8et
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03 Aug 2022

MrFigg wrote:
12 Jul 2022
plaamook wrote:
12 Jul 2022


You trying to use this argument to get yourself outta trouble figg?
I didn’t say which girlfriend :)
Witch girlfriend? Best Girlfriends!

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MrFigg
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Posts: 9124
Joined: 20 Apr 2018

03 Aug 2022

Re8et wrote:
03 Aug 2022
MrFigg wrote:
12 Jul 2022


I didn’t say which girlfriend :)
Witch girlfriend? Best Girlfriends!
Depends. There’s good witches and bad witches. Ask Dorothy.
🗲 2ॐ ᛉ

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bxbrkrz
Posts: 3814
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

03 Aug 2022

Maybe 'free will' is a hive mind distributed across people willing to see just a bit beyond their 'self-love', and change hearts and souls without the use of violence.
:think: :wtf:
757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

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plaamook
Posts: 2593
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Location: Bajo del mar...

04 Aug 2022

Your brain isn’t a muscle
Even neuro-dwerbs dont think it’s a muscle.
It mysterious for chor but it’s not a muscle.
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plaamook
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04 Aug 2022

bxbrkrz wrote:
03 Aug 2022
Maybe 'free will' is a hive mind distributed across people willing to see just a bit beyond their 'self-love', and change hearts and souls without the use of violence.
:think: :wtf:
More like an aberration in the hive mind.
Like everything would be fine except I think I’m a ME.
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motuscott
Posts: 3422
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04 Aug 2022

Track folderz
Who’s using the royal plural now baby? 🧂

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selig
RE Developer
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Location: The NorthWoods, CT, USA

04 Aug 2022

plaamook wrote:
11 Jul 2022
I’m happy w free will. Is it offensive to anyone yet or just outdated?
Agency sounds a bit boring and sterile.
Besides that, who doesn’t love things that are free?!?
I AM, however, very skeptical of “subscription will”…
;)
Selig Audio, LLC

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motuscott
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04 Aug 2022

Robert Sapolski will not let go of my mindz
Who’s using the royal plural now baby? 🧂

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bxbrkrz
Posts: 3814
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04 Aug 2022

plaamook wrote:
04 Aug 2022
bxbrkrz wrote:
03 Aug 2022
Maybe 'free will' is a hive mind distributed across people willing to see just a bit beyond their 'self-love', and change hearts and souls without the use of violence.
:think: :wtf:
More like an aberration in the hive mind.
Like everything would be fine except I think I’m a ME.
Image

Or misfortune.
757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

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motuscott
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04 Aug 2022

Winner winner, chicken dinner!
Who’s using the royal plural now baby? 🧂

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plaamook
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Location: Bajo del mar...

04 Aug 2022

motuscott wrote:
04 Aug 2022
Winner winner, chicken dinner!
Chicken curry more like.
I’m thinking about a curry thread.
It’s the kitchen after all...
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motuscott
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04 Aug 2022

If I'm ever submerged beneath the arctic circle, you're the fella I want to do lunch with
Who’s using the royal plural now baby? 🧂

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plaamook
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Location: Bajo del mar...

04 Aug 2022

motuscott wrote:
04 Aug 2022
If I'm ever submerged beneath the arctic circle, you're the fella I want to do lunch with
Sure.
But on the boat right? Or a tent or some shut.
Perpetual Reason 12 Beta Tester :reason:

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motuscott
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04 Aug 2022

All of the above?
Let us now make the musics!
or rather post about it on the RT.
Who’s using the royal plural now baby? 🧂

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bxbrkrz
Posts: 3814
Joined: 17 Jan 2015

05 Aug 2022

This thread is proof free will exists.
The concept of cringe cannot be coded in AI, because you need it to exist inside multiple observers' minds.
757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

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plaamook
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05 Aug 2022

bxbrkrz wrote:
05 Aug 2022
This thread is proof free will exists.
The concept of cringe cannot be coded in AI, because you need it to exist inside multiple observers' minds.
You might need to explain that more.
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bxbrkrz
Posts: 3814
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05 Aug 2022

plaamook wrote:
05 Aug 2022
bxbrkrz wrote:
05 Aug 2022
This thread is proof free will exists.
The concept of cringe cannot be coded in AI, because you need it to exist inside multiple observers' minds.
You might need to explain that more.
I don't have to because I am in control, just like you ;)
757365206C6F67696320746F207365656B20616E73776572732075736520726561736F6E20746F2066696E6420776973646F6D20676574206F7574206F6620796F757220636F6D666F7274207A6F6E65206F7220796F757220696E737069726174696F6E2077696C6C206372797374616C6C697A6520666F7265766572

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