Are you in control of your own thoughts, actions and decisions?

[orthodox]

Why? Materialism stands. Some substance is organized, some is not.

I’m talking about it on a deeper level. Trying to.
If the entire universe was blue (for example) the concept if blue wouldn’t exist.
It’s similar here.
If there’s free will as we’ve been discussing it then material exists in opposition to some ephemeral mind thing that makes decisions outside the matrix of causality to whatever degree that it does this. If mind stuff doesn’t make such decisions as in a strictly material universe based on causality than thats because the mind stuff isn’t different or separate from the material on some deep level. But at that level you arrive at a kind of unified field where there’s no real differentiation of things because it’s all the same blue (for example) stuff. And at that point the concept of material breaks down.

Strict casuality is dead since quantum mechanics, materialism still stands. There is now a level in material world where wonderful things can happen.

[plaamook]

I’m talking about it on a deeper level. Trying to.
If the entire universe was blue (for example) the concept if blue wouldn’t exist.
It’s similar here.
If there’s free will as we’ve been discussing it then material exists in opposition to some ephemeral mind thing that makes decisions outside the matrix of causality to whatever degree that it does this. If mind stuff doesn’t make such decisions as in a strictly material universe based on causality than thats because the mind stuff isn’t different or separate from the material on some deep level. But at that level you arrive at a kind of unified field where there’s no real differentiation of things because it’s all the same blue (for example) stuff. And at that point the concept of material breaks down.

Strict casuality is dead since quantum mechanics, materialism still stands. There is now a level in material world where wonderful things can happen.

I think we’re arguing semantics here.
In my model the material...whatever it is...doesn’t go anywhere. Only it’s place in some conceptual hierarchy changes or shifts.
Not clear what happens philosophically at that point.

[motuscott]

Schopenhauer is my favorite philosopher.
While there may be others more Reasonable and Logical (DAW joke there), I can see old man S getting all up in your face to argue a point, eyeballs bulging, spittle flying…

[orthodox]

Strict casuality is dead since quantum mechanics, materialism still stands. There is now a level in material world where wonderful things can happen.

I think we’re arguing semantics here.
In my model the material...whatever it is...doesn’t go anywhere. Only it’s place in some conceptual hierarchy changes or shifts.
Not clear what happens philosophically at that point.

There already exist different forms of matter. So, philosophically within materialism, is is possible to allow the existence of a special form, "psycho"-matter. It can be a medium for a will (Hello, Schopenhauer).

[plaamook]

I think we’re arguing semantics here.
In my model the material...whatever it is...doesn’t go anywhere. Only it’s place in some conceptual hierarchy changes or shifts.
Not clear what happens philosophically at that point.

There already exist different forms of matter. So, philosophically within materialism, is is possible to allow the existence of a special form, "psycho"-matter. It can be a medium for a will (Hello, Schopenhauer).

But what’s the matter made of? Energy. Four forces etc. So if the mind is made of that etc etc then it’s all the same stuff. That’s my point. Space and light. Same stuff.

[plaamook]

Schopenhauer is my favorite philosopher.
While there may be others more Reasonable and Logical (DAW joke there), I can see old man S getting all up in your face to argue a point, eyeballs bulging, spittle flying…

Bottle of Venezuelan rum between us, trod the cap, and I’ll mop the floor w that cultural appropriator!

[motuscott]

"Bring it!"
Artie S

[orthodox]

There already exist different forms of matter. So, philosophically within materialism, is is possible to allow the existence of a special form, "psycho"-matter. It can be a medium for a will (Hello, Schopenhauer).

But what’s the matter made of? Energy. Four forces etc. So if the mind is made of that etc etc then it’s all the same stuff. That’s my point. Space and light. Same stuff.

Energy is a form. But, whatever. What is the difference between a broken car and a car that can run? Both are made from the same matter.

[plaamook]

But what’s the matter made of? Energy. Four forces etc. So if the mind is made of that etc etc then it’s all the same stuff. That’s my point. Space and light. Same stuff.

Energy is a form. But, whatever. What is the difference between a broken car and a car that can run? Both are made from the same matter.

Well it depends.
The car analogy...I’d use something more like glass is half full glass is half empty. Or there may be a better one. But as far as we’re concerned...mankind...how we see things can have powerful effects on what we do or how we do it. Many examples of this so I won’t list any.

[bxbrkrz]

Observable Universe = Observable Consciousness
We are like a school of fish in an aquarium.
We don't know its size.
We don't know how we get fresh water everyday.
We are 'free' to swim in it forever.

[motuscott]

Wish you were here

[plaamook]

You know the joke...
Two fish swimming along the reef
Older fish swims past and says...
Mornin boys! Waters lovely today, eh?
One fish looks at the other and says...what’s Water?...

I think the consciousness puzzle is a bit like that.
Thus far we experience it subjectively (not going into the complexities of that statement for the moment) but as an object we infer it. Like wind. We don’t see wind. We see trees moving. Etc.

[bxbrkrz]

I have the free will not to eat bugs.

[avasopht]

You know the joke...
Two fish swimming along the reef
Older fish swims past and says...
Mornin boys! Waters lovely today, eh?
One fish looks at the other and says...what’s Water?...

I think the consciousness puzzle is a bit like that.
Thus far we experience it subjectively (not going into the complexities of that statement for the moment) but as an object we infer it. Like wind. We don’t see wind. We see trees moving. Etc.

I'm not just a robot, says the robot.

[motuscott]

I'm gonna commit here
and say that eating bugs is no longer among my primary goals,
not sure if that makes me a better ReasonTalker or what
Still that Delta thing beckons what's left of my mind...

[bxbrkrz]

Maybe 'free will' is a preprogrammed suggestion pretending to be 'the truth' coming from your mind.
You'll eat the bugs and be happy about it, because it was always your idea

[plaamook]

You know the joke...
Two fish swimming along the reef
Older fish swims past and says...
Mornin boys! Waters lovely today, eh?
One fish looks at the other and says...what’s Water?...

I think the consciousness puzzle is a bit like that.
Thus far we experience it subjectively (not going into the complexities of that statement for the moment) but as an object we infer it. Like wind. We don’t see wind. We see trees moving. Etc.

I'm not just a robot, says the robot.

Says the google chat bot anyway...

[avasopht]

Free will is a dated concept. We know about atoms and quantum fields.

The subject should be reframed to asking about agency or something.

[motuscott]

FreeWill™ RE now available at Propshop.
No trial, no nothing, it's already on yer cart

[bxbrkrz]

[motuscott]

Just press buy

[motuscott]

Always press buy, no matter what
We've got to keep this jinky economy afloat fellow workers

[Thony]

I think that I can control my actions, but it is really hard to control thoughts, espesially in the bed before sleeping.

[plaamook]

I think that I can control my actions, but it is really hard to control thoughts, espesially in the bed before sleeping.

You should try thinking that you can’t control your actions. See if you can do it!

[plaamook]

I’m happy w free will. Is it offensive to anyone yet or just outdated?
Agency sounds a bit boring and sterile.