Hardware peeps: what keeps you using it?

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EnochLight
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15 Jul 2017

I just stumbled across some pictures of the band SURVIVE (Kyle Dixon and Michael Stein - basically 1/2 of the band - did the soundtrack to Netflix's Stranger Things) practicing in their garage rehearsal spot, and it struck me... calling up presets, dealing with MIDI and CV cables, etc - this has not changed in 30+ years, and I can attest personally that it's a PAIN. IN. THE. ASS. to deal with - especially for live gigging.

So my question to you hardware peeps out there - what keeps you using it?

http://www.imposemagazine.com/photos/at ... v-i-v-e#25

The reason I ask is, back when I gigged regularly - the most pieces we had in any hardware setup was just 4-5 devices, connected via MIDI, and just managing those 4-5 devices (setup, take down, patch changes during shows and rehearsal), was a goddamn nightmare compared to what I have to do today (Reason + 1 or 2 MIDI controllers). Yet - and I say this with reservation because I know there's a lot of strong feelings about this - one can obtain any sound they want in software that achieves virtually everything that hardware can do - and do it much easier and faster IMHO.

So why hassle with all that hardware? Is it just the tactile feel of an instrument? I really want to understand this.
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Oquasec
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15 Jul 2017

Do midi controllers count as hardware? If not I end my reply at this spot :P
Last edited by Oquasec on 15 Jul 2017, edited 1 time in total.
Producer/Programmer.
Reason, FLS and Cubase NFR user.

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EnochLight
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15 Jul 2017

Oquasec wrote:
15 Jul 2017
Do midi controllers count as hardware? If not I end my reply a this spot :P
NO. Not one bit. ;)
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Ostermilk
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15 Jul 2017

Here's one practical perspective.


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AttenuationHz
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15 Jul 2017

Could it be the end result?
It is not too much of an ask for people or things to be the best version of itself!

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EnochLight
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15 Jul 2017

Ostermilk wrote:
15 Jul 2017
Here's one practical perspective.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcJVrnL8Qac
Seems like a practical reason to NOT use hardware! ;)
AttenuationHz wrote:
15 Jul 2017
Could it be the end result?
When the end result is often indistinguishable between the two platforms? Again, I realize I'm navigating a slippery slope by suggesting that one can achieve the vast majority of the "hardware sound" using software, but - that's pretty much what has been happening the past 15+ or so years, hasn't it?
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

chk071
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15 Jul 2017

I had one hardware synth in my live, actually 2 times. The Waldorf Blofeld. Let's just say that it was a sobering experience, especially with so few knobs, and so much menu diving. Happy to use Largo instead of that. 256 voices, opposed to 25 on the Blofeld, as many instances as i like, almost all the controls on one page of GUI, no effing cables running over my desktop, no chance of getting a hardware defect (a real threat on the Blofeld, as the knobs are known to be pretty whacky...). The advantage of having the Blofeld: A nice box on my desktop. Bit of a unfair match really. Happy to go on using software, unless someone comes around, and sells me a Virus TI for a few hundred €, but, that will never happen. ;)
:reason: :rebirth:

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EnochLight
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15 Jul 2017

chk071 wrote:
15 Jul 2017
I had one hardware synth in my live, actually 2 times. The Waldorf Blofeld. Let's just say that it was a sobering experience, especially with so few knobs, and so much menu diving. Happy to use Largo instead of that. 256 voices, opposed to 25 on the Blofeld, as many instances as i like, almost all the controls on one page of GUI, no effing cables running over my desktop, no chance of getting a hardware defect (a real threat on the Blofeld, as the knobs are known to be pretty whacky...). The advantage of having the Blofeld: A nice box on my desktop. Bit of a unfair match really. Happy to go on using software, unless someone comes around, and sells me a Virus TI for a few hundred €, but, that will never happen. ;)
I think that's why I'm perplexed... you had this experience with just 1 machine - which is less than 10 year old tech.

Now multiply that by 4 or 5 machines, add in 25 year old to 30 year old tech (my last piece of hardware was an Ensoniq ASR10), add in menu diving on a 1" x 4" LCD screen that displayed just 2 lines, and the necessary MIDI cables to wire everything up and... UGH - I get queezy just thinking about gigging with it LOL!

So I look at that studio photo of SURVIVE in my OP, and ask myself - why would they want to deal with all of that??! I mean, I love my Juno 106 and will take it to the grave with me, but I'd never gig with it these days and rarely use it in productions, even in my studio. I think the last time I seriously used it was when Reason 7 appeared and I wanted to test the External MIDI Instrument, etc (which, admittedly was pretty damn cool in Reason).

Anyway, I digress. I guess certain setups work for certain people, and SURVIVE clearly enjoys managing the spider's nest of cables, MIDI, CV, and hardware to get their signature sound. I guess I can respect that. I may think they're bonkers for choosing to go the hard route, but... eh.. whatever works for them.
Win 10 | Ableton Live 11 Suite |  Reason 12 | i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz | 16 GB RAM | RME Babyface Pro | Akai MPC Live 2 & Akai Force | Roland System 8, MX1, TB3 | Dreadbox Typhon | Korg Minilogue XD

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raymondh
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15 Jul 2017

It's a great question Mr. EnochLight and one I mull over a lot too!

A long answer (rambling) on my thought process rather than any compelling argument:

Context - I don't do any gigs, all 'bedroom producer' stuff.
I currently have a Roland JX8P (vintage analog), DSI Mopho X4 (modern analog), Roland JP-08 x 2 + JU-06 (digital virtual emulations of classic synths).

Many years ago I had hardware synths, and when I moved house, sold them all, and then pined for them :) When I got into Reason (from v1), everything I produced sounded really weedy, could not get a nice big warm sound no matter what I did.
Bought the JX8P partly for the big warm analog sound, partly for nostalgia reason - A friend way back in my school days had one and I coveted it big time but could never afford it. Nothing in Reason (at the time version 5) came close to the warmth, and nothing could recreate the signature Roland Chorus.
The DSI Mopho purchase was to get a modern real synth but still true analog. You could say it was a mix of GAS, wanting an "instrument" and a bit of eye candy for the home studio :)
When the Roland Boutiques were announced, I was stopped in my tracks. Roland, producing their own recreation of the Jupiter 8???? Wow!!! And Juno 106!! They had a 106 back at school too and I remember no matter what you programmed on it, it always sounded amazing. And look at all those knobs, sliders and lights!! I got two JPs due to the ridiculous 4 voice limitation of the Boutiques.

With this gear, and thanks to Reason's EMI, it is a pretty well integrated setup. The workflow is nowhere near as easy as REs only, so what I tend to do is build up a track with REs and then replace track by track with the hardware synth sound. And then I need to manually drag the recorded audio forward to compensate for the latency in the recordings.
But for all of this hassle, there's some upside too - the hardware synths take no DSP/CPU, I can play around with sound design on multiple hardware synths playing independent tracks, simultaneously, everything is so much more 'instant' and tactile.
I also have three keyboards with different sounds. While my PC is booting up, or if I have any PC problems at all, I can be noodling away on the 8P or Mopho.

But fast forward and we now have some truly amazing RE synths, and VSTs!!!

Synapse Audio's The Legend has taken over bass duties where I would have used the Mopho. Incredible organic sounding synth.

Arturia's Vintage Collection I'm still scratching the surface, but between this and the excellent Sonic Projects OP-X, truly spoiled for choice for vintage synth sounds that sound amazing. Though I hate the amount of FX processing Arturia has drenched all over some of the Jupiter 8V presets. The Arturia synth does not sound anywhere near as good as the Boutique JP-08 by itself, but I suspect it will be plenty good enough in a mix, and it has much better polyphony.

There's a free VST called the PG-8X that is a very, very close emulation to the 8P. It sounds a tad more "creamy" to the 8P's "silky" but the dev nailed the chorus and almost every aspect of the 8P. Every day I think, will I sell my 8P, or will I miss it? (Maybe I should create a poll for advice!!!)

I reckon if it wasn't for GAS, I could be as productive if I sold all my hardware synths except for the JU-06. I haven't yet come across anything that is good enough an emulation of the Juno 106. (I have the free TAL synth but have not tried the $ version emulation).

But how do I protect against obsolescence? My 30+ year old JX is still going strong. The free 8P emulation might not work with the next version of Windows, or Reason. Arturia might get bored with their software line and focus more on their hardware business. Who knows. The software world changes so much faster than the hardware world. You only have to look at a car for a perfect example - the hardware of a car will remain current for years, but the digital technology in it - not so much!!

Then there is the real time control. I don't have a panorama controller, and I really never get around to properly programming my control surfaces (multiple) to control my virtual synths. But the dedicated controls on the JP's PG-800, the Mopho x4 and the Boutiques are very intuitive. Everything is in it's place without me having to figure out "which slider will control the filter envelope decay" etc.

So there are arguments on both sides - I'm unsure. I suspect the answer is find a middle ground rather than go for one extreme or the other. Maybe one or two hardware synths (that do something not easily achievable with s/ware, and have a great tactile experience) and go virtual/in the rack for everything else...

cheers
Raymond
Last edited by raymondh on 16 Jul 2017, edited 1 time in total.

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EnochLight
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16 Jul 2017

Great feedback; thanks!
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Hauser+Quaid
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16 Jul 2017

For me it's mostly down to sound. Yes, REs & VSTs sound great but I don't know, for some things my hardware just works, and it works fast. I can get the sound I need out of it quick. And part of that is familiarity of course, but part of it is an inexplicable sonic difference that pleases me. I often need very specific sounds that I can get out of software with fiddling and processing, but I can get it precisely and quickly with some of the hardware that I have.

I don't gig with it, so once it's set up it's set up, there's no tear-down or anything unless I'm moving. So no issue there.

Also as was mentioned before, no DSP requirements. I'm only limited to one instance of any synth at a time, if I want more I have to bounce. But a lot of the stuff I have it's just not worth it to sell.

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EnochLight
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16 Jul 2017

Not having to move hardware/setup/takedown for gigging certainly makes using it a lot easier, despite the fact that there's no instant "total recall" when loading songs in your DAW. I think that's one of the things that keeps me 99% software based these days: instant/total recall of all of my song projects for the past 17 years.
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Ahornberg
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16 Jul 2017

No mouse and no MIDI controller come close to turning knobs and plugging cables on a real piece of hardware. That are my 2 cents.

chk071
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16 Jul 2017

I'm sure about that. It's just that machines which give me enough knobs and tactile feeling, mostly range in the 2.000 - 3.000 € region. And USB MIDI would be a must have for me, which is not possible with many attractive vintage VA, or analog synths. And, actually, VA hardware synths seem to be a dying breed really. Not even Access seem keen on releasing a new Virus synth.
:reason: :rebirth:

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Marco Raaphorst
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16 Jul 2017

I think for live playing hardware rocks.

And hardware is great to kill desicion stress. Use a few tools and get creative. Lo-fi is what a lot people love. Non perfect sound. Human imperfect music. Having fun while doing it quicky. Playing a real instrument.

Hauser+Quaid
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16 Jul 2017

EnochLight wrote:
16 Jul 2017
Not having to move hardware/setup/takedown for gigging certainly makes using it a lot easier, despite the fact that there's no instant "total recall" when loading songs in your DAW. I think that's one of the things that keeps me 99% software based these days: instant/total recall of all of my song projects for the past 17 years.
I have total recall for most of my hardware. Most of it gets programmed on the computer where I can save the patches. If not I can transmit the patch via SysEx and save. It only takes a few more seconds than saving a patch on a RE. Without this ability I'd definitely lean a bit more to the non-hardware side.

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Ras Keita
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25 Jul 2017

Because nothing and I mean absolutely nothing sounds like my Rhodes 73 Mark II Stage Piano (customized dual output Lo&Hi) plugged into vintage Fender Bassman 70, or my Wurlitzer 112.

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