Brexit

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chimp_spanner
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Post 26 Jun 2016

Ostermilk wrote: Absolute undemocratic arrogant thinking. So the majority don't share your view therefore it's because they are thick?
I don't think it's arrogant to expect people to do at least 10 minutes of research before they cast a vote on something so incredibly important, and we *both* know that a lot of people didn't; enough to have made a difference. But in any case it wasn't my intention to come across that way. Look, I live in Clacton on Sea. It's UKIP central. Our town, and our wider area Tendring, voted roughly 70% in favour of leaving, constituting around 10% of the margin by which Leave won the vote (my town; around 4%). I'm not gonna say that of that 70% everyone was uninformed, or racist. But you don't have to go very far around here to find it.

The Nigerian doctor at my GP still gets funny looks (I overheard the couple in front of me joking that he ought to have a bone through his nose just a couple of months ago). People around here openly say "we've gotta get the P*kis out, we're half full of them" apparently not realising that Pakistan is neither in the EU nor is it interchangeable with the multitude of other nationalities that makes up our whopping <5% migrant population. It was perfectly acceptable in the social club on my road for a table of old craggy Londoners to say openly, to me and my slightly dark skinned father, that our village is called Little London because "we all moved out when the n*ggers moved in". If I said a quarter of the people around here were somewhere on the spectrum of casual racism - enough so to influence their vote - I think that'd be a fair, if conservative estimate. Now extrapolate that across all of the depressed towns and counties across the UK and you've got a big chunk of people.

Add to that anyone who took Vote Leave at face value - yes, those people exist - and you've got another few thousand people. I'm not saying a vote for Leave was, in and of itself, a vote for ignorance or racism. But ignorance and racism helped win it. Or am I wrong to say that? Maybe I've been jaded by 20+ years of living in the company of some very unpleasant people. I just don't know any more.

And ya know, I was on the fence myself. I saw good reasons to stay, and good reasons to leave, swayed slightly towards remain/reform because I'm a big dumb rosy optimist...sometimes. But I fully acknowledge that there were risks associated with staying in a failing economic union. Maybe a Brexit was always inevitable, as will be a Grexit and a...Spexit..Frexit? I just hate that this victory has served to embolden some truly regressive, nasty elements in our society. And I openly admit it's colouring my feelings on the matter.

But I didn't mean to come across as arrogant, or undemocratic. I believe in democracy. But it only works when the people are informed. This time, I don't think they were (sufficiently).
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submonsterz
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Post 26 Jun 2016

for our American friends I see here that some seem to not understand the size of the united kingdom
here are some old figures that may help on the argument about immigration woes etc.

United Kingdom
Population 60,609,153
Land area (sq mi) 93,278
Density per sq mi 650

United States
Population 298,444,215
Land area (sq mi) 3,539,225
Density per sq mi 84

that may put your argument it is not an issue here for us in a big way all ready look at land mass and then the density of it here compared to there.
but it has not been all about that for nearly all the people I know on the vote out side of things it was so many different things.
oystermilk obviously has stated many other concerns that were valid worries and concerns of staying in that were part of the reasons most voted out.
and chimp spanner I live up the road in Colchester maybe Clacton on sea (or crackton as its known outside of it) its not all that bad as you make out
and you would find more of them types of people there Jaywick , Walton etc when they are places that are full of unemployed homeless overspill from everywhere else in the surrounding areas ;).

Ostermilk
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Post 26 Jun 2016

avasopht wrote:
Maybe the seed of equivalent benefit is that people will finally realise the importance of political literacy, involvement and responsibility :)
Totally, that's what I was alluding too in the other thread, people need to engage more in what they are voting for whether it be local politicians, MP's, Parties and indeed in a referendum. If there's nothing that is a good fit then in a democracy such as the UK everyone has a right to make their own stand.

It's been a wake up call to the EU and the electorate in the UK and in the end hopefully the benefit will come from that however turbulenent the interim may be.

There is a rise of populist right wing politics certainly in the EU region that will always be the case when people do not feel they play their part in their own destiny because they are over regulated by an undemocratic authority.

Here's another example of what happens when bureaucrats decide what is best for a peaceful and prosperous Europe...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles

...and we all know now how well that idea worked out.

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orthodox
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Post 26 Jun 2016

Ostermilk wrote:Here's another example of what happens when bureaucrats decide what is best for a peaceful and prosperous Europe...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles

...and we all know now how well that idea worked out.
What does that treaty have to do with bureaucracy? Do you think that popular vote in France would reduce their claims to Germany?
Or do you mean the foundation of the League of Nations?
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EpiGenetik
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Post 26 Jun 2016

Ultimately what we are seeing here is the achilles heel of democracy. Put plainly it's the fact that if you convince the populaion an idea is good, then it doesn't matter whether it is good or not. What we have really seen with the Brexit vote is that the right wing media will tell no end of lies, and there is nothing in place to stop this happening, ironically due to the left wing rules that govern the media.

I have long been of the belief that some sort of weighting system should be in place to stop democratic accidents like this from happening. You could actually be rid of "modern" forms of government (as in what we have today, despite their basic principles being thousands of years old) if done correctly.

Ostermilk
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Post 26 Jun 2016

orthodox wrote:
Ostermilk wrote:Here's another example of what happens when bureaucrats decide what is best for a peaceful and prosperous Europe...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles

...and we all know now how well that idea worked out.
What does that treaty have to do with bureaucracy? Do you think that popular vote in France would reduce their claims to Germany?
Or do you mean the foundation of the League of Nations?
No, I'm pointing our that if you impose too much external regulation against the will of the people then a backlash is the result.

Sure the ToV is an extreme case of punitive measures against a single nation unlike the EU but the EU although more moderate is a contributary cause to the (re)-emergence of the right within Europe IMO, due to people feeling (whether it's real or imagined) that they are not in control of their own destiny anymore.

Look at it this way if there was an in/out referendum in all EU member states next week I would expect to see the leave contingent of many of those countries to vote in favour of 'leave' by much bigger margins than seen here.

So the question is, is the EU actually serving its people or are its people serving it and if its people feel like they are serving it then how long will that situation last without some kind of backlash as a result?

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jappe
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Post 26 Jun 2016

plaamook wrote:Perhaps I should have posted this in the "Why do we argue" thread, but I'm surprised no one has brought this up considering it's threatening to destabilise...well, all of Europe? Beyond?

Personally, I and all my folk are pretty depressed over this. Everyone I know voted in. Now we get to sit around and see what happens I guess. Pound and euro dropping together against the dollar, Scottland lined up for another refferendum which may trigger Wales. I'm told France and Sweden also considering Frexits and Sexits respectively.

Surely once Trump gets in he's going to sort it all out though, right?
Imo the best thing EU can do is to treat UK with great generosity, greater than expected.
That would serve as a good signal to the people of the other member states, telling "Look, EU isn't evil, we offer a more than fair divorce".

Some say that would make other EU countries more likely to leave. That is possible, but I'm not sure about that.

But I am convinced that if EU starts to act like a bully now, trying to suppress anti EU opinions in the member countries by threats, then we will see a worse future and turmoil that could even lead to violence in some countries.

Ostermilk
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Post 26 Jun 2016

chimp_spanner wrote:
I don't think it's arrogant to expect people to do at least 10 minutes of research before they cast a vote on something so incredibly important, and we *both* know that a lot of people didn't; enough to have made a difference.
No it's just a bit rich to assume those that did vote didn't spend more than 10 minutes of thoughtful input on it, yet I'm sure, just like yourself that some voters we're guilty of that but I equally suspect that such random and thoughtless votes fell equally on both sides of the ballot.

I'd also like to point out very clearly that I voted 'leave' despite the odious campaign spearheaded by Boris and Michael not because of it... :mrgreen: What an appaling pair they showed themselves to be, they made Nigel almost look like an affable moderate for a little while there.

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platzangst
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Post 26 Jun 2016

submonsterz wrote:for our American friends I see here that some seem to not understand the size of the united kingdom
here are some old figures that may help on the argument about immigration woes etc.
I understand the size of the UK well enough; my point isn't that there aren't concerns about population density but that the issue is being framed in a very UK-first, fuck-the-rest-of-Europe perspective. Which you can do, if you like, but going back to my first post, it means that it seems some people never really wanted to be in Europe as Europeans, as a larger collective. It would be akin to New York saying "screw this, why should I bother to accommodate Georgia and Tennessee?" (Which isn't unheard of - but in the end, we're all Americans.) New York doesn't need more people. But it can't just bail if it thinks too many people are coming in from Maine or wherever. And if it did, that would weaken and destabilize the US, and probably wouldn't do New York much good, because then it would be on its own without any Federal assistance for things the state can't handle on its own.

My main point is and has been a commentary on the seeming inability for the UK to assimilate into the larger European community, for whatever reason. Even when people in the US have their differences - south vs. north, liberal coasts vs conservative midwest, there's always the overarching USA identity to knit these fractious elements together. Europe has not - or refuses to - knit as closely, and chunks of the UK even less.

Even the fact that you post this info on the UK - to show how this is important to the UK - kind of proves my point. And this isn't a value judgement per se on whether it's good or bad things turned out this way, I'm just a little nonplussed that some of the complaints seem to treat the terms of being in the union as a gosh-wow outrageous surprise, as if A) nobody bothered to check out the details during some 40 years, and B) people don't really seem to grasp what the unions are supposed to accomplish.

Ostermilk
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Post 26 Jun 2016

platzangst wrote: as if A) nobody bothered to check out the details during some 40 years, and B) people don't really seem to grasp what the unions are supposed to accomplish.
Firstly I'm not convinced that the EU itself is able to grasp what it is supposed to accomplish, that's part of the problem. I've never had issue with any of my European friends either, we are able to work laugh and play together no problem, there's also a historical case whereby Britain has been right to view what goes on in the rest of Europe with some scepticism and alarm, also even and perhaps especially, when it has done so in total isolation.

See my earlier posts if you want to believe that nobody bothered to check out the details over the last 40 years as I've stated that I think you are mistaken, if anything the UK can be accused of wanting to maintain the status quo too much.

Key to it all is that an in/out referendum was offered by the current UK government in order to cynically capitalise on the anti-Europe feeling and to garner the votes going at that time to the UKIP.

Nobody was seriously calling for the referendum as a simple either or polarized question until that point, neither did the Prime Minister bank on there being an out vote. He played fast and loose with the UK electorate and the result is what we are discussing now and the PM just walks away from the consequences of his actions with no contingency for moving forward from this point.

I'd venture most British people want good healthy relationships with other European nations, but the Brussels quango is seen by too many as a gravy train for un-elected Eurocrats. I certainly didn't vote anti-Europe I voted to leave the current setup of the institution that calls itself the EU.

Whether, on this international forum, you can view it as good, bad or are indifferent, I'm still the same lovable ol' Ostermilk as I was last week... :puf_bigsmile:

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platzangst
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Post 26 Jun 2016

Ostermilk wrote:Firstly I'm not convinced that the EU itself is able to grasp what it is supposed to accomplish, that's part of the problem.
That's as may be. As I said at the start, as an American I'm not directly tied to the details of the arrangements of the EU or even the UK. And so I'll readily concede that there are quite probably good reasons to leave, or to stay, or whatever, and I'm not party to all of them and probably don't really care all that much.

It's just that the way some things are presented are, at least to me, low in common sense. If someone says - for example - "well, being in the EU means that the UK has to just let anyone else from the EU in!" - then my immediate gut response is: "Well, of course! That would seem to be an inherent component of the nature of this union being made, here, and if you're going to be part of such a union, that's something you ought to expect!" - just as my many examples of inter-state interactions would demonstrate. Does the UK forbid people from Scotland picking up and moving to Wales? I'd hope not. And if you're going to have a United Europe, one might think free movement between EU citizens would be par for the course.

It's that kind of thing that gets me. It's not the decision to leave or stay so much as it is acting like these things are some kind of unprecedented, unexpected burden that could never have been expected back in the 70s.

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8cros
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Post 27 Jun 2016

You just got lost in the love and hatred of the Soviets. :mrgreen:
Democracy does not work, as you can see, you complain about the fact that people are not informed.
Democrats from one side of the ocean friends do not understand Democrats from the other side.

But you hate the Soviets. The Soviet Union translated Tips unification. This is what you love (tips and tricks).
Reason itself is a skill toy. :lol: But you mess up in politics and hated his own nature. Under the posters and slogans populists - emptiness. And people have endless frustration. I'm happy for the UK.
I'm not serious, you can laugh at me. I would like to dispel the oppressive atmosphere of concentrated here. The situation in the world for a long time far from jokes. :twisted:

The idea of Soviet power was born underground, she has a huge psychedelic influence. It is useless to resist it.
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Carly(Poohbear)
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Post 27 Jun 2016

platzangst wrote: It's that kind of thing that gets me. It's not the decision to leave or stay so much as it is acting like these things are some kind of unprecedented, unexpected burden that could never have been expected back in the 70s.
As I stated before, EU was made up of 10 countries, Immigration ran at about 12-19 thousand per year for quite a few years at these levels.
EU now 28 countries, Immigration 270 thousand... it was not expected..
platzangst wrote:
Carly(Poohbear) wrote: So lets say Mexico and Argentina join the United States and a lot of them want to come over and live in Texas, you think that is perfectly OK but more to the point will Texas will be able to take a mass influx?
Well, if Mexico and Argentina did join the US, unlikely as that would be, then yes. That's part of the whole USA deal. Not only would that be okay, but have you seen Texas? Lotta open ground there.
Space is one thing and yes you have a lot of it, infrastructure is another, OK you have flat pack housing over there that goes up quickly however could you really keep up with the demand and still offer the same level of services? well done if you can, we can't and everyone suffers for it one way or another.
platzangst wrote: However, if Mexico - which is several of its own states - joined, they would no longer be "them", but be part of "us", subject to all our laws, not an independent country anymore. They wouldn't need to come to Texas or anywhere else, to get US wages and protections.
I understand about the "Them" and "Us" bit, but If you really believe that they would not come over, that's pie in the sky talk.
Countries join the EU and we get an influx every time...

And just to make my self clear, I'm not even talking about jobs or claiming welfare, trying to hammer home the infrastructure issues we have to deal with and the the impact on things like the NHS, and yes I know the NHS issues goes a hell of lot deeper than just immigration but it does impact it..

There are comments that are being made about "Us", "Them" and Unions etc, so I will speak for my self (and this does not mean I'm speaking on behalf of my country), I think a lot of your comments are correct as of now, will state once again 10 countries in an agreement about trade etc compared to 28 countries being run by non elected people now....

I have never ever once called my self an European, I am British,
I have never seen the European flag flown here outside of private houses,
I have traveled Europe and enjoyed the different cultures (however it's funny that the European country I have been to most and spent the most time at is Andorra, which is not in the EU, just great snowboarding there).
I have been a member of a number of international and more Europe based gaming clans.

When the EU was reformed back in 1993 that is when we should have come out, than is when there were a lot of big changes, the EU is very slow to react, it's just as well Article 50 is a 2 year exit plan, if it was totally down to the EU to workout our exit on there own, in about 2 years time they may have decided about the colour, type of paper and if it should curl up at the edges or not to be able to write the exit plan on, OMG then they would need to work out the types of pens to be used!!!

I have worked for big companies, multi-national ones, dealt with people from all over the world. The EU had nothing to the do with these companies per-say as they are US companies..
I don't see my self as a racialist, but I do object strongly against people coming into our country (and anyone who are born here) that burn our flag and claiming we will burn in hell.
I believe the EU in the crawling state but they believe they can run and that is why they trip over a lot and are not on top of things.
The EU should have stayed the original size, built a parliament that we all get to vote for, got every country into the Euro, built a real forward plan that everyone can work towards and that to me is a big point, then when they are standing solid and strong take on other countries.
So the fact I never called my self an European and really have seen the UK outside of the EU with a foot in the door, is that my governments fault or the EU's or mine or a bit of all 3...
The fact I will admit I have knee jerk reactions of who are we bailing out today rather than who can we help today, again is that Gov. or EU or even media's fault, you may say it's my fault but I'm part of the society that is around me. Could never understand if the EU was that great why they had not stepped in to help sooner in them cases?

People who think those who voted to leave are dumb in my book makes them the dumb ones.

Comparing the United States to the EU is like comparing chalk and cheese to me.

I will say the campaigns run by both camps were sad and very embarrassing, I did try to watch the ones on TV but end up screaming at the TV instead.

Just a few of my thoughts..

Oh yeah, I have Reason 9 and I'm very happy with it so I'm glad that my main worry of the year is over :)

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gak
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Post 27 Jun 2016

Image

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EpiGenetik
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Post 27 Jun 2016

Carly(Poohbear) wrote:28 countries being run by non elected people now....
So what are the MEP's for then?

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platzangst
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Post 27 Jun 2016

Carly(Poohbear) wrote: I understand about the "Them" and "Us" bit, but If you really believe that they would not come over, that's pie in the sky talk.
The main reason anyone comes to the US, and especially those south of the border, is for a better economic life - i.e., jobs. People come because they think they can do better here than wherever they already are.

The USA has a minimum wage, which most employers are required to pay. If Mexico became part of the US, every employer there would be required to pay that much - which isn't a particularly great or livable wage, at the moment, but still beats out what the immigrants are making now. That right there would undercut much of the reason why people come up here.

Back when the recession hit, the US saw a dramatic drop-off in illegal immigration. No jobs, no reason to come.

It wouldn't be entirely painless, as I'm sure there's parts of Mexico that just don't have jobs at all, and people would want to move to where jobs are, particularly if they suddenly had the right of free travel. But US businesses have long and notoriously been opening plants south of the border to take advantage of cheap labor and low taxes. If those plants were suddenly required to pay minimum wage, well, those areas would see an economic boom, assuming the US companies didn't just pull out and send their plants to Bangladesh or wherever.

But the larger point is, you can't just say "be part of the US" and not mean everything that comes with being part of the US. The US and Mexico aren't going to get together. I don't think the US as a whole wants to claim Mexico, and I doubt that Mexico would want to be "south USA". But if they did, we couldn't deny our new citizens any part of citizenship just because it would be inconvenient or scary. That's not how citizenship works.

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plaamook
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Post 27 Jun 2016

And that's how the EU works and that's why some people want out.

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Carly(Poohbear)
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Post 27 Jun 2016

Lowlifebware wrote:
Carly(Poohbear) wrote:28 countries being run by non elected people now....
So what are the MEP's for then?
To make you think that you have taken a role in the European Parliament...

That's at the bottom, what about European Commission, Council of the European Union, Court of Justice of the European Union etc.

I could not tell you who the presidents of any of these are, it's just not news to us.

From economic to political union.... We joined it when it was a economic union.

sentient.minority
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Post 27 Jun 2016

chimp_spanner wrote:
Ostermilk wrote: Absolute undemocratic arrogant thinking. So the majority don't share your view therefore it's because they are thick?
I don't think it's arrogant to expect people to do at least 10 minutes of research before they cast a vote on something so incredibly important, and we *both* know that a lot of people didn't; enough to have made a difference. But in any case it wasn't my intention to come across that way. Look, I live in Clacton on Sea. It's UKIP central. Our town, and our wider area Tendring, voted roughly 70% in favour of leaving, constituting around 10% of the margin by which Leave won the vote (my town; around 4%). I'm not gonna say that of that 70% everyone was uninformed, or racist. But you don't have to go very far around here to find it.

The Nigerian doctor at my GP still gets funny looks (I overheard the couple in front of me joking that he ought to have a bone through his nose just a couple of months ago). People around here openly say "we've gotta get the P*kis out, we're half full of them" apparently not realising that Pakistan is neither in the EU nor is it interchangeable with the multitude of other nationalities that makes up our whopping <5% migrant population. It was perfectly acceptable in the social club on my road for a table of old craggy Londoners to say openly, to me and my slightly dark skinned father, that our village is called Little London because "we all moved out when the n*ggers moved in". If I said a quarter of the people around here were somewhere on the spectrum of casual racism - enough so to influence their vote - I think that'd be a fair, if conservative estimate. Now extrapolate that across all of the depressed towns and counties across the UK and you've got a big chunk of people.

Add to that anyone who took Vote Leave at face value - yes, those people exist - and you've got another few thousand people. I'm not saying a vote for Leave was, in and of itself, a vote for ignorance or racism. But ignorance and racism helped win it. Or am I wrong to say that? Maybe I've been jaded by 20+ years of living in the company of some very unpleasant people. I just don't know any more.

And ya know, I was on the fence myself. I saw good reasons to stay, and good reasons to leave, swayed slightly towards remain/reform because I'm a big dumb rosy optimist...sometimes. But I fully acknowledge that there were risks associated with staying in a failing economic union. Maybe a Brexit was always inevitable, as will be a Grexit and a...Spexit..Frexit? I just hate that this victory has served to embolden some truly regressive, nasty elements in our society. And I openly admit it's colouring my feelings on the matter.

But I didn't mean to come across as arrogant, or undemocratic. I believe in democracy. But it only works when the people are informed. This time, I don't think they were (sufficiently).
Hi Paul, sent you a PM, I'm in Clacton too if ever you want to meet up?

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EpiGenetik
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Post 28 Jun 2016

Carly(Poohbear) wrote:
Lowlifebware wrote:
Carly(Poohbear) wrote:28 countries being run by non elected people now....
So what are the MEP's for then?
To make you think that you have taken a role in the European Parliament...

That's at the bottom, what about European Commission, Council of the European Union, Court of Justice of the European Union etc.

I could not tell you who the presidents of any of these are, it's just not news to us.

From economic to political union.... We joined it when it was a economic union.
So essentially, the EU is bad because you aren't paying attention to it? Can I ask when the last time you voted for a UK judge was? As for the "To make you think...." part, do you really believe that the FPTP based Westminster is any more representative? Does the EU have a House of Lords too?

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Carly(Poohbear)
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Post 28 Jun 2016

Lowlifebware wrote: So essentially, the EU is bad because you aren't paying attention to it? Can I ask when the last time you voted for a UK judge was? As for the "To make you think...." part, do you really believe that the FPTP based Westminster is any more representative? Does the EU have a House of Lords too?
I never said the EU was bad, they are your words but I suspect a number will agree with you.

If you had read my other post the EU is just not news over here, we get to hear about when more of our rights are taken over, you never hear about anything good, never had a conversation of "Oh the EU have done this, that's great" etc, just negative stuff only, don't hear about the changes at the top, well lets be honest the British public generally are not interested, if they were then more news about these things and the public in general would be talking about it, they don't, so to say not paying attention to when there is nothing to pay attention to (what is being reported over here) is a bit pointless.

The FPTP based Westminster is totally representative of Britain.

The EU does not have a House of Lords...

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EpiGenetik
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Post 28 Jun 2016

Carly(Poohbear) wrote:
Lowlifebware wrote: So essentially, the EU is bad because you aren't paying attention to it? Can I ask when the last time you voted for a UK judge was? As for the "To make you think...." part, do you really believe that the FPTP based Westminster is any more representative? Does the EU have a House of Lords too?
I never said the EU was bad, they are your words but I suspect a number will agree with you.

If you had read my other post the EU is just not news over here, we get to hear about when more of our rights are taken over, you never hear about anything good, never had a conversation of "Oh the EU have done this, that's great" etc, just negative stuff only, don't hear about the changes at the top, well lets be honest the British public generally are not interested, if they were then more news about these things and the public in general would be talking about it, they don't, so to say not paying attention to when there is nothing to pay attention to (what is being reported over here) is a bit pointless.

The FPTP based Westminster is totally representative of Britain.

The EU does not have a House of Lords...
You're missing the point.

The UK is less democratic than the EU (and by a very large margin too), and the reason you don't understand this is that, as you say "it is not big news" as far as the UK mainstream media is concerned.

By your own words, this is not an issue with the EU, but your perception of it.

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Carly(Poohbear)
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Post 28 Jun 2016

Lowlifebware wrote:
Carly(Poohbear) wrote:
Lowlifebware wrote: So essentially, the EU is bad because you aren't paying attention to it? Can I ask when the last time you voted for a UK judge was? As for the "To make you think...." part, do you really believe that the FPTP based Westminster is any more representative? Does the EU have a House of Lords too?
I never said the EU was bad, they are your words but I suspect a number will agree with you.

If you had read my other post the EU is just not news over here, we get to hear about when more of our rights are taken over, you never hear about anything good, never had a conversation of "Oh the EU have done this, that's great" etc, just negative stuff only, don't hear about the changes at the top, well lets be honest the British public generally are not interested, if they were then more news about these things and the public in general would be talking about it, they don't, so to say not paying attention to when there is nothing to pay attention to (what is being reported over here) is a bit pointless.

The FPTP based Westminster is totally representative of Britain.

The EU does not have a House of Lords...
You're missing the point.

The UK is less democratic than the EU (and by a very large margin too), and the reason you don't understand this is that, as you say "it is not big news" as far as the UK mainstream media is concerned.

By your own words, this is not an issue with the EU, but your perception of it.
I'm not missing the point, PR vs FPTP, lets be honest, a lot of people did not know what they were voting for with a simple Yes or No, give even more options, oh no, and with closed lists, constituents have no choice over who becomes their MEP, the party chooses for them... House of Lords is made up of mostly unelected peers (OK the the elected ones are done by jury and not people as a whole), they are there to approve legislation but they can't stop it, just delay it. so the UK maybe slightly less democratic than the EU, but I would say not much in it to worry about.

Your final point not quite right, it's more of Britain's perception of the EU.

The points I have been making have been for our USA counter parts, to try and explain why Brits think the way they think and not like the cohesive way USA thinks about and support their states..

My bottom line personal view is very basic, the moment the EU (EEC) went from economic to political union, I think the country should have left at that point and that's been my personal opinion since the 90's and nothing the EU has ever done has changed that..

Ostermilk
Posts: 1462
Joined: 15 Jan 2015

Post 28 Jun 2016

Lowlifebware wrote: You're missing the point.

The UK is less democratic than the EU (and by a very large margin too), and the reason you don't understand this is that, as you say "it is not big news" as far as the UK mainstream media is concerned.

By your own words, this is not an issue with the EU, but your perception of it.
I'd say it was you missing the point. Are you like the other chap saying the UK electorate is thick and merely influenced by the mainstream media because you don't like the outcome? I wonder what proportion of 17 million are thinking they wished you had been around to lay some of your wisdom on them before they made their foolish mistake.

At the time of the last UK general election a particular party worried that it wouldn't be able to gain a majority vote noticed the ground swell in the populist vote going to the UKIP. As a party they chose the hairbrained idea that offering an in / out EU referendum would get them into government with a majority. That part worked perfectly.

The part that backfired for them was thinking having courted that anti-EU vote they would then somehow manage to stay in. If those complaining about the democratic process that has just occured voted for that cynically reckless gamble then I suggest, if anyone is, they are the dumb ones here.

That referendum is the one we are moving forward from now good bad or indifferent a majority, not just some, wanted out.

The rest is just 'post-match' analysis.

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Gorgon
Posts: 1233
Joined: 11 Mar 2016

Post 29 Jun 2016

Ostermilk wrote: I'd say it was you missing the point. Are you like the other chap saying the UK electorate is thick and merely influenced by the mainstream media because you don't like the outcome?
They're all racists! Didn't you know that? Old, rich, white male racists! :lol:
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