Brexit

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plaamook
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Post 25 Jun 2016

Perhaps I should have posted this in the "Why do we argue" thread, but I'm surprised no one has brought this up considering it's threatening to destabilise...well, all of Europe? Beyond?

Personally, I and all my folk are pretty depressed over this. Everyone I know voted in. Now we get to sit around and see what happens I guess. Pound and euro dropping together against the dollar, Scottland lined up for another refferendum which may trigger Wales. I'm told France and Sweden also considering Frexits and Sexits respectively.

Surely once Trump gets in he's going to sort it all out though, right?


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plaamook
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Post 25 Jun 2016

Oh right. Thanks. I'll go vent spleen over there then!

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plaamook
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Post 25 Jun 2016

Hmm... I just had a look over there. Think I'll stay out of it actually.

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jonheal
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Post 25 Jun 2016

Our man Trump will definitely sort things out. Even if it requires a nuclear solution ... which I'm sure it will ...
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Ostermilk
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Post 25 Jun 2016

plaamook wrote:Hmm... I just had a look over there. Think I'll stay out of it actually.
Yep, just like the EU itself, it started out alright and then took off on it's own agenda... :lol:

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Carly(Poohbear)
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Post 25 Jun 2016

Ostermilk wrote:
plaamook wrote:Hmm... I just had a look over there. Think I'll stay out of it actually.
Yep, just like the EU itself, it started out alright and then took off on it's own agenda... :lol:
Yep, the OP has lost control, sounds familiar LOL

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platzangst
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Post 25 Jun 2016

As an American, I can't pretend to fully understand the entire leave/stay argument from either the UK or EU perspectives. But some of the things that have crossed my ears are a little baffling.

For one thing, it seems odd to me that a country could have decided to join a union some 30-40 years ago and have so many people in that country seem to not understand what a union is. Is the UK chafing at a loss of its sovereignty? Well, okay, but that's an inherent part of joining a collective! You give up some autonomy in return for some sort of benefit. The state of Texas, despite blowhard politicians talking about secession, doesn't get to say it rules itself entirely apart from the rest of the US. Nor do I think it would fare very well if it actually tried.

Is the free movement of people within the EU a concern? Well, again, what's the point of having a union without that? Texas doesn't get to keep out everyone from Mississippi if they happen to not like their attitude or something. Does the UK resent having to support its less-successful EU countries like Greece? Again, the whole point of the union is to share strength. California could quite possibly be its own country. Its strength props up weaker states like Mississippi, and keeps the US as a whole stronger than it would be if it were 50 autonomous countries.

If the UK - or at least half of it - has honestly considered the issues and decided the benefits aren't worth the sacrifices, well, that's one thing - it just leaves me shaking my head when I hear some complaints that seem to want some kind of bonus out of being in the EU without having to give up anything at all. It makes me wonder how the UK ever got into the EU in the first place, if those are the problems being cited...

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gak
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Post 25 Jun 2016

jonheal wrote:Our man Trump will definitely sort things out. Even if it requires a nuclear solution ... which I'm sure it will ...
Sure hope so!

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pushedbutton
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Post 25 Jun 2016

I voted out cos I want to watch the world burn.
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jonheal
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Post 25 Jun 2016

If this whole Brexit thing tipped over the edge as a result of those pesky Syrian, etc. refugees, I believe Trump has a solution in the works for you. For a low initial investment and very reasonable terms, he will bomb them with Mexicans.
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chimp_spanner
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Post 25 Jun 2016

Insanity, is how I'd describe it. My feeling is that the people should never have been given the vote, because at least half of us had no idea what we were doing. With a single X in a box people have made a decision about the future of science, tech and art funding, redevelopment in depressed areas of the country, human/worker/consumer rights, environmental regulation, the job prospects of millions of young adults, and their children. And yet when I speak to them they struggle to even describe to me what the EU is, or does. They just parrot things that they've heard like "we pay more than we receive" or "60% of our laws come from Brussels" or "there are too many Muslims" or "we're not allowed to sell straight bananas".

We're facing the dissolution of not one, but two unions (now Scotland and NI potentially want to leave) and people are talking about straight bananas. I'm not even religious, but God help us all.

Honestly if people have voted out for sound reasons, that's fine. I'll disagree but that's democracy. But honestly it doesn't feel like that's what's happened here. Suddenly a lot of Leavers don't wanna talk about it any more. Their hero Farage has reneged on NHS funding and immigration levels (not that he ever had the power to enforce them) and to top it off he's been excluded from negotiations by Vote Leave. So now Johnson and Gove (the well known advocate of a privatised NHS) are steering the ship. The tariff free access to the single market we were assured we'd have now turns out to be fantasy. Cameron is nope-ing out. Corbyn is a dead man walking. There's no opposition. There's no plan. And to top it off, my European and immigrant friends are feeling unwelcome and afraid. Meanwhile the blotched red face of small-town racism is grinning from ear to ear; confident and emboldened.

And I kinda don't want to live here any more.

I'd make music to take my mind off it but I left my glasses 3 hours away in Lincoln and Reason still has no scalable GUI.

TL;DR this is how I feel

http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-06-2015/837_su.gif
Enjoy!

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Carly(Poohbear)
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Post 25 Jun 2016

platzangst wrote:As an American, I can't pretend to fully understand the entire leave/stay argument from either the UK or EU perspectives. But some of the things that have crossed my ears are a little baffling.

For one thing, it seems odd to me that a country could have decided to join a union some 30-40 years ago and have so many people in that country seem to not understand what a union is. Is the UK chafing at a loss of its sovereignty? Well, okay, but that's an inherent part of joining a collective! You give up some autonomy in return for some sort of benefit. The state of Texas, despite blowhard politicians talking about secession, doesn't get to say it rules itself entirely apart from the rest of the US. Nor do I think it would fare very well if it actually tried.

Is the free movement of people within the EU a concern? Well, again, what's the point of having a union without that? Texas doesn't get to keep out everyone from Mississippi if they happen to not like their attitude or something. Does the UK resent having to support its less-successful EU countries like Greece? Again, the whole point of the union is to share strength. California could quite possibly be its own country. Its strength props up weaker states like Mississippi, and keeps the US as a whole stronger than it would be if it were 50 autonomous countries.

If the UK - or at least half of it - has honestly considered the issues and decided the benefits aren't worth the sacrifices, well, that's one thing - it just leaves me shaking my head when I hear some complaints that seem to want some kind of bonus out of being in the EU without having to give up anything at all. It makes me wonder how the UK ever got into the EU in the first place, if those are the problems being cited...
In 1973 we joined the EEC (known over here as the common market), the main point of the EEC was the trade agreements, over time it got more and more politically active, created high courts which overrule our own courts and started to take our British rights away and of course giving us new ones, some good, some bad and some bloody freaking stupid (like how loud our MP3 players are allowed, Doh!!!).
The freedom of movement was not not an issue when we joined, as there were about 10 countries in the EEC, there are 28 now with more wanting to join, we are not a big country, we have housing, hospital, schools etc issues to contend with and with this full free movement we can't keep up with infrastructure, especially as you don't know from one day to next what it will be. (put a cap on the number that can move into Britain and you stand a lot more of a chance).
So lets say Mexico and Argentina join the United States and a lot of them want to come over and live in Texas, you think that is perfectly OK but more to the point will Texas will be able to take a mass influx?
The way the EU has grown is like an upside pyramid just waiting to collapse, with Britain wanting to exit the EU has woken up but I think it's too late..
Oh you mentioned Greece, don't forget Spain, Ireland, Portugal, Cyprus, Hungary, Latvia, Romania and a few of these countries were bailout multiple times...... and by the looks of it there are more coming soon!!
Also remember the referendum was a long time coming it did not happen over night..
Hmmm... You have Independence day... Think about it...

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platzangst
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Post 25 Jun 2016

Carly(Poohbear) wrote: So lets say Mexico and Argentina join the United States and a lot of them want to come over and live in Texas, you think that is perfectly OK but more to the point will Texas will be able to take a mass influx?
Well, if Mexico and Argentina did join the US, unlikely as that would be, then yes. That's part of the whole USA deal. Not only would that be okay, but have you seen Texas? Lotta open ground there. Now if they all wanted to cram into Rhode Island that would be another story.

The southern US already gets a pretty heavy stream of immigrants, and there's always someone griping about "those" people taking jobs and/or resources away from US citizens. But most of those claims are on shaky ground. A lot of the jobs they "take" are unskilled, low-paying labor that most actual citizens turn up their noses at. They don't actually want to do those jobs, they just resent the idea that someone from outside might get the jobs. Or that somehow they'll get welfare, or in some way a citizen might have to pay for an immigrant - somehow - with tax dollars. If you actually crunch real numbers, the impact isn't nearly as great as, say, inefficiencies in our defense budget, but there's a nativist irritation driving those feelings, and it's an easy target.

However, if Mexico - which is several of its own states - joined, they would no longer be "them", but be part of "us", subject to all our laws, not an independent country anymore. They wouldn't need to come to Texas or anywhere else, to get US wages and protections. Not that there wouldn't be growing pains, but if we're going to hypothesize a scenario where they wanted to join and we wanted to let them, we could assume that we saw through our differences enough to sort some of that out. (What's more, historically it wouldn't be the first time the US took over an area that had previously belonged to Mexico.)

And that's what I think is some of the problem with the UK vis a vis the EU: I'm getting the sense that (parts of) the UK didn't want to be part of the United States of Europe, it wanted to be UK Kind of Affiliated with Europe but Not Seriously Part of it For Real.


Carly(Poohbear) wrote:Hmmm... You have Independence day... Think about it...
Yeah, we broke away from the UK because we were being taxed without representation. Now we're taxed with representation. Then a bunch of our states tried to have Independence Day II, Except for Our Slaves. That worked well.

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plaamook
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Post 26 Jun 2016

platzangst wrote:... Now if they all wanted to cram into Rhode Island that would be another story.
Actually, that's closer to what we've got. England is not as big as Texas but it has a population of about 65m people compared to Texas 26m. It also has one of the strongest economies in what used to be the EU so a lot of people want to come here from newly joined nations that are less wealthy. I don't have a problem with this particularly, but lets put things into perspective.

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platzangst
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Post 26 Jun 2016

plaamook wrote: but lets put things into perspective.
Well, people move around within the US all the time to go where they think they'll have better opportunities. That's why New York and California have high populations while North Dakota, not so much.

My point is, instead of thinking, "oh, all these people coming here to work in the UK, that'll make us, Europe, stronger!", a chunk of the UK is going "all those people coming here is going to mess us, the UK, up!"

There's not as much shared identity as Europeans (or so it seems) as there is here in America. The prosperous EU countries don't look at the ones needing bailouts and think, "we must drag our fellow Europeans up, and keep Europe strong, so the region doesn't have a big economic collapse", they say "all those guys dug themselves their own holes, why should I pay to fix their problem? Cut ourselves loose and let the others drown!"

(Granted, the US has its own nativist grumblings at the moment. Still.)

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Soft Enerji
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Post 26 Jun 2016

To be honest I really don't watch the news or read newspapers (either physically or online) simply because I hate all the bad shit going on in the world. Ignorance is bliss! I was vaguely aware about the brexit thing but only through snippets I'd caught here and there. I am honestly dumbfounded that a decision as potentially detrimental to the global economy was put into the hands of the common people. From where I sit, we elect governments to make the hard calls and for the Conservative govt in the UK to pretty much pass the buck shows complete lack of backbone, as well as gross stupidity!

I just spoke to my parents on skype and (to no surprise) they voted to leave, simply because they think they are british, not European :roll: . I just shook my head and said we have to agree to disagree otherwise it would've become an argument that could've gone on all night. I did put the dig in that now Scotland might get another referendum about leaving the UK though and this time it'll happen :puf_smile:

The ramifications of this decision will have profound effects moving forward. I hope the people who voted for it are prepared for it. The rest of us will just have to suck it and see.

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pedrocaetanos
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Post 26 Jun 2016

Carly(Poohbear) wrote:
Ostermilk wrote:
plaamook wrote:Hmm... I just had a look over there. Think I'll stay out of it actually.
Yep, just like the EU itself, it started out alright and then took off on it's own agenda... :lol:
Yep, the OP has lost control, sounds familiar LOL
I "brexited" myself out of the other thread... I should have guessed that mentioning yuguslavia was messing with a gunpowder barrel
Let's hope the gunpowder barrel thing doesnt spread all around europe, but can't say I'm very optimitisc about the future...
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pedrocaetanos
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Post 26 Jun 2016

chimp_spanner wrote:
And I kinda don't want to live here any more.

http://i.makeagif.com/media/12-06-2015/837_su.gif
I'm not sure where you could go... most places are a in a lot worst state...
Even if it is a dumb decision, even if UK is worst without EU and vice versa, it was a democratic decision.
More and more people feel trapped inside EU against their will. They might be better inside, but they don't know it, and would like to choose otherwise, and freedom is an important thing.

That's what the UK still has.

Maybe because it still has the money for it.
Most countries in EU are locked in, they can't pay the cost of getting out.
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-008'
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Post 26 Jun 2016

Here is some political advice from a musician...

Never take political advice from musicians or actors. And don't take mixing & mastering tips from politicians, the bastards.

Of course i had to rhyme. ;)

I say: Do all of your own reading, researching, thinking and voting. And only do it for you and your family's interests.

As far as politics and stuff go, you are only another vote to them. As far as Hollywood and the media go, you're just a consumer. A disposable meat bag, who can't think on his own.

Think and do for yourself in affairs like this, because "they" aren't going to. It's literally almost always the opposite.

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avasopht
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Post 26 Jun 2016

There are good and bad ways to execute democracy - not all democracies are equal.

There are so many other decisions of public interest that are easier to comprehend and decide based on available facts that owe far more to a public vote, and yet this was chosen.

Whatever anyone's opinion is, I'm pretty sure we can all agree that a random guess is not really a decision because you don't really know the outcomes to judge between. But sadly our government have failed to create a curriculum that cultivates critical thought and instead infused our education system with nationalist propaganda and champion dishonest leaders, who as a result do not have the trust of the people, while giving them nothing to base decision on other than pure bias.

From a purely analytical point of view this approach to politics is clearly self sabotaging, self destructive and a demonstration of grossly incompetent absurdity lacking any sense of self awareness or truly productive thought.
---

Ostermilk
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Post 26 Jun 2016

chimp_spanner wrote:Insanity, is how I'd describe it. My feeling is that the people should never have been given the vote, because at least half of us had no idea what we were doing. With a single X in a box people have made a decision about the future of science, tech and art funding, redevelopment in depressed areas of the country, human/worker/consumer rights, environmental regulation, the job prospects of millions of young adults, and their children. And yet when I speak to them they struggle to even describe to me what the EU is, or does. They just parrot things that they've heard like "we pay more than we receive" or "60% of our laws come from Brussels" or "there are too many Muslims" or "we're not allowed to sell straight bananas".
Absolute undemocratic arrogant thinking. So the majority don't share your view therefore it's because they are thick?

The vote went against the gimmick that Cameron put in place to gain another term, the In/Out referendum. That's the only reason he won a majority. I didn't vote for this government yet I respected the polls however misguided I felt the electorate was.

Now the lunatic that has created all this division in the country and beyond in order to plump up his ego's fluffy tail has walked away from it and everyone will forget that it was his cynism to garner votes for himself will forget that fact.

I'd have preferred to negotiate fairer terms from within the EU personally but given the either or situation Cameron decided to put us in I had to vote out for many considered reasons largely to do with the cumbersome autocratic leviathan in Brussels.

I'd love better union with Europe but the EU as it stands isn't working. I'd venture too there's be much bigger margins to leave than have just been seen in the UK if other member states were given the same choice, it would be hilarious if the UK turned out to be the pioneers of far better union than those unelected bureacrats in Brussels could muster.

I left more detailed thoughts in the other thread if you want bother to have some idea of what it meant for some of us.
Last edited by Ostermilk on 26 Jun 2016, edited 1 time in total.

Ostermilk
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Post 26 Jun 2016

avasopht wrote:There are good and bad ways to execute democracy - not all democracies are equal.

There are so many other decisions of public interest that are easier to comprehend and decide based on available facts that owe far more to a public vote, and yet this was chosen.

Whatever anyone's opinion is, I'm pretty sure we can all agree that a random guess is not really a decision because you don't really know the outcomes to judge between. But sadly our government have failed to create a curriculum that cultivates critical thought and instead infused our education system with nationalist propaganda and champion dishonest leaders, who as a result do not have the trust of the people, while giving them nothing to base decision on other than pure bias.

From a purely analytical point of view this approach to politics is clearly self sabotaging, self destructive and a demonstration of grossly incompetent absurdity lacking any sense of self awareness or truly productive thought.
I agree with much of this and as I said the referendum was offered as a carrot to right of centre voters in order to get the current party into government and shouldn't have been up for grabs as cheaply.

Also the arguments for and against before the referendum lacked any content as to how Brussels works it's advantages and disadvantages and mostly consisted of hyperbole from both sides. Given the coverage from both sides it would have all been a random guess aside from those who bothered to inform themselves better. Having said that I have more faith in human perception in that they know what they are prepared to buy or dismiss to a greater extent than some analysts would credit them for, also any major change will inevitably bring surprises and unforeseen consequences as indeed would maintaining the status quo.

Any preference is some kind of bias btw.

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avasopht
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Post 26 Jun 2016

Ostermilk wrote:Any preference is some kind of bias btw.
Yes, it was a problem I had with making my voting decision because it is a decision that requires significant research due to the lack of independent and unbiased information or any thorough breakdown of what outcomes we are deciding against.

This is a decision that requires the consultation of experts, some of which will disagree, the time and patience to absorb that information, and a critical mind to lead to an informed conclusion.

I believe that our nation possesses brilliant leaders and entrepreneurs who are capable of making good of either situation, but the potential for greatness does not always materialise. Great leaders and entrepreneurs are still subject to chance and occasion. Our next Andrew Carnegie might be somewhere between the knife edge of brilliance and the struggle of poverty.

Most of my close friends are foreigners. I get the most amount of love and affection from my European peers and I feel it for them the most. Some of my friends are really distraught.

Maybe the seed of equivalent benefit is that people will finally realise the importance of political literacy, involvement and responsibility :)
---

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plaamook
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Post 26 Jun 2016

avasopht wrote:This is a decision that requires the consultation of experts, some of which will disagree, the time and patience to absorb that information, and a critical mind to lead to an informed conclusion.
I think this is why people have been saying that no one, or very few people were even prepeared to vote on such a thing.
I'm as guilty as the next guy for not paying enough atention to what's going on until it's too late. But paying constant attention to what's going on, more importantly trying to find something like the truth amidst all the bullshit, is almost a full time job. I have a feeling that the people that pay attention do so because they want to, they're interested, not because of their noble sense of social responibility. when I'm interested, they I pay loads of attention!

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