Tom Petty and Jeff Lynn wouldn't back down, and stayed with Sam Smith.

[Yorick]

http://consequenceofsound.net/2015/01/t ... y-with-me/

by Chris Coplan
on January 25, 2015, 10:46pm

116 comments

Upon the release of Sam Smith’s “Stay With Me” in April 2014, a number of listeners were quick to note the distinct resemblance to Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers’ 1989 classic “I Won’t Back Down”. As it turns out, Petty’s lawyers also took notice, and the UK crooner has since agreed to pay songwriting royalties.
According to The Sun, Smith and Petty actually settled out of court back in October, but details only emerged just this weekend. The settlement reportedly included a 12.5% writing credit to both Petty and singer-composer Jeff Lynne (of ELO fame). The song’s credit on ASCAP — that’s the American Society of Composers, Authors, and Publishers — now lists Smith, Petty, Lynne, and Jimmy Napes as the chief songwriters.

Said one source close to the case, “When Sam’s track was originally released, it was clear to a lot of musicians that there were notable similarities between the tracks,” referring specifically to melodies of the respective choruses. “After it was pointed out to Sam’s camp, they didn’t try to fight it and amicably dished out royalties. It wasn’t a deliberate thing, musicians are just inspired by other artists and Sam and his team were quick to hold up their hand when it was officially flagged.”
The source went on to note the case was “done behind closed doors without any mud being slung,” explaining that similar songwriting cases have turned ugly publicly.
Update: A rep for Smith confirms that Petty and Lynne are now listed as co-writers for “Stay With Me” and “acknowledges” its similarities to “I Won’t Back Down”. However, the rep contends that it’s all a “complete coincidence.”
“Recently the publishers for the song ‘I Won’t Back Down,’ written by Tom Petty and Jeff Lynne, contacted the publishers for ‘Stay With Me,’ written by Sam Smith, James Napier and William Phillips, about similarities heard in the melodies of the choruses of the two compositions. Not previously familiar with the 1989 Petty/Lynne song, the writers of ‘Stay With Me’ listened to ‘I Won’t Back Down’ and acknowledged the similarity.
“Although the likeness was a complete coincidence, all involved came to an immediate and amicable agreement in which Tom Petty and Jeff Lynne are now credited as co-writers of ‘Stay With Me’ along with Sam Smith, James Napier and William Phillips.”
“Stay With Me” has sold nearly four million copies worldwide, making it one of the most successful singles of 2014. It’s also up for both Best Pop Performance and Record of the Year at the 2015 Grammy Awards.
Compare the similarities for yourself by listening to both tracks below.
Sam Smith – “Stay With Me”:

http://youtu.be/pB-5XG-DbAA

http://youtu.be/nvlTJrNJ5lA

[QVprod]

Similar melody and same chord progression, but not enough for a lawsuit IMHO. Either way I think Smith's people just agreed to pay to avoid the court drama and legal fees.

[ryanharlin]

One thing that struck me about just how strong of a songwriter Tom Petty was/is: It's the VERSE of his song that is the HOOK of Sam Smith's song. Maybe it's a small point but it struck me. Generally your hook is the strongest melodic part of your song and the verse is largely there to get you back to the hook so it's not repetitive. And sure, you'd like to have strong verses and hooks both but still, the fact that Sam Smith's strongest element is derivative of Tom Petty's "just getting back to the hook" music underscores to me how strong of a writer he is.

[KEVMOVE02]

So is it likely that we will see litigation regarding the other Sam Smith hit "I'm Not The Only One"?

[Some Desperate Glory]

One thing that struck me about just how strong of a songwriter Tom Petty was/is: It's the VERSE of his song that is the HOOK of Sam Smith's song. Maybe it's a small point but it struck me. Generally your hook is the strongest melodic part of your song and the verse is largely there to get you back to the hook so it's not repetitive. And sure, you'd like to have strong verses and hooks both but still, the fact that Sam Smith's strongest element is derivative of Tom Petty's "just getting back to the hook" music underscores to me how strong of a writer he is.

Indeed.  I noticed that as well (this was the first time I heard the Sam Smith song.  Not only did it incorporate the verse of "I Won't Back Down" but the chorus' are practically identical (try singing the Tom Petty chorus over the Sam Smith music.  It works fine.

This is why I think they did the settlement.  Since it obviously is derived from TWO components of the Petty song I would go so far as call it an homage.  Perhaps it was on accident (I've "re-written" well known songs before, and then felt embarrassed) but at any rate it was appropriate to add Petty as a songwriter.

[ryanharlin]

Similar melody and same chord progression, but not enough for a lawsuit IMHO. Either way I think Smith's people just agreed to pay to avoid the court drama and legal fees.

Back when Joe Satriani was suing Coldplay I read about how these cases are actually handled if they make it to trial and it's pretty crude. They make two print outs of the musical notes on a staff, printed on transparency film, and then literally lay one over top of the other on a projector to show the jury how closely the notes line up.

They don't consider production nuance or the fact that the third bar is different than the first two.

I think that Sam Smith's people probably knew that if it got to that point the transparencies would line up perfectly.

[QVprod]

Similar melody and same chord progression, but not enough for a lawsuit IMHO. Either way I think Smith's people just agreed to pay to avoid the court drama and legal fees.

Back when Joe Satriani was suing Coldplay I read about how these cases are actually handled if they make it to trial and it's pretty crude. They make two print outs of the musical notes on a staff, printed on transparency film, and then literally lay one over top of the other on a projector to show the jury how closely the notes line up.

They don't consider production nuance or the fact that the third bar is different than the first two.

I think that Sam Smith's people probably knew that if it got to that point the transparencies would line up perfectly.

Good to know. In that case, yeah lining up Smith's Chorus with Petty's verse would line up perfectly. Think thats a quite horrible way to compare music though. We humans aren't as creative as we'd like to think.

[ryanharlin]

Think thats a quite horrible way to compare music though. We humans aren't as creative as we'd like to think.

I KNOW, right?! That's why that article stuck with me because I thought... "well crap how many times can you line up enough matching notes to have a case?! We've only got 12 notes, after all." If I remember correctly, they said that 75% or more matching notes and your case is virtually lost following that rigid method.

[selig]

One thing that struck me about just how strong of a songwriter Tom Petty was/is: It's the VERSE of his song that is the HOOK of Sam Smith's song. Maybe it's a small point but it struck me. Generally your hook is the strongest melodic part of your song and the verse is largely there to get you back to the hook so it's not repetitive. And sure, you'd like to have strong verses and hooks both but still, the fact that Sam Smith's strongest element is derivative of Tom Petty's "just getting back to the hook" music underscores to me how strong of a writer he is.

That's a great point - I also love pre-chorses that sound awesome but are only the setup for the actual chorus.

I only heard the first two lines lining up (and maybe the last). But that's the strange world of publishing - probably best they did what they did!

[kloeckno]

I heard a clip on Youtube where someone transposed and tempo matched the two songs, and they are very similar in the vocal melody. It lined up very well.

[selig]

I heard a clip on Youtube where someone transposed and tempo matched the two songs, and they are very similar in the vocal melody. It lined up very well.

Indeed they are similar (the first two lines seem to be spot on, but the rest not so much) - but where does one draw the line to say they are "the same" or one is "infringing" on the other? That's a rhetorical question, of course.

[Julibee]

If I'm being perfectly honest, I don't even like Smith's song and I LOVE Petty's. Given that they ARE similar-- I just find that interesting.
 
I'm on the fence about this, as much as I love (and have always loved) Tom Petty. I do think at LEAST the first line of Smith's Chorus is a total rip off. But is it enough? I'm not sure. I don't like Smith's song, but I do think it was cool of he and his team to recognize the need to compensate Petty. My estimation of him has doubled.
 
However, this discussion makes me wonder how many chord and melody variations within a given key are ACTUALLY possible?** How many of those will make musical sense? How many that will resonate with an audience or fit into a given piece?
 
I wonder if we are dealing with a finite set of things that "work", and at some point there's nothing doing but repeating-- if not in full, then in part? 
 
Food for thought:
 
"There is no such thing as a new idea. it is impossible. We simply take a lot of old ideas and put them into a sort of metal kaleidoscope. We give them a turn and they make new and curious combinations. We keep on turning and making new combinations indefinitely; but they are the same old pieces of colored glass that have been in use through the ages." -Mark Twain
 
"There are no new ideas. There are only new ways of making them felt." -Audre Lorde
 
 
I dunno. Just an interesting thing to discuss. I'm certainly not saying that blatant plagiarism is ok-- it's absolutely not-- but that probably the melody you just wrote for your new song also exists somehow, at least in part, somewhere else in the ages... 
 
**Not a rhetorical question... Has anyone ever done the math? 

[atitlan]

 
 
**Not a rhetorical question... Has anyone ever done the math? 

1st rule of the internet - if you can think it, someone else has already blogged or videoed it.

[Julibee]

I knew someone would have an answer of some sort! Thanks, Atitlan! Great video!

Man, I almost thought he wasn't going to differentiate between the millions of possible melodic combinations and USEFUL/known/pleasing combinations, but he did. Very nearly satisfactorily, too.

(I still think it could be quantified with some more parameters, but I am not the girl to do it. I gots no mathematical skillz.)

I still think that it will become more and more difficult to NOT repeat someone else's pleasing melody as time goes by. On the other hand, I can't predict what the future holds for sound bending and how we perceive it, either. Maybe new scales will rule the day and the I V vi IV smash hit formula will fall by the wayside. That would open a few doors.

[eusti]

 
 
**Not a rhetorical question... Has anyone ever done the math? 

1st rule of the internet - if you can think it, someone else has already blogged or videoed it.

Great video. Thanks for sharing.

D.

[dconana]

I'm quite surprised since I was thinking about The Strokes song and "American Girl" by Tom Petty, and remember them saying they pretty much took it, and him saying he pretty much didn't care, or something along those lines.

Anyway I googled it, heres a brief article with the tracks named and Petty's thoughts.

Edit:- And if I actually post the link, you will be able to read it.

http://www.vulture.com/2015/01/tom-pett ... arism.html

[Olivier]

1st rule of the internet - if you can think it, someone else has already blogged or videoed it.

Great link, thanks

[ryanharlin]

I still think that it will become more and more difficult to NOT repeat someone else's pleasing melody as time goes by.

Paul McCartney famously said that when he wrote Yesterday he had a similar paranoia in a pre-Google era too!

"For about a month I went round to people in the music business and asked them whether they had ever heard it before. Eventually it became like handing something in to the police. I thought if no one claimed it after a few weeks then I could have it."
-Paul McCartney