Mattias is starting to talk about the PUF closing

[jfrichards]

Mattias is starting to give some responses today:

https://www.propellerheads.se/forum/sho ... 881&page=3

Here are some examples:

Honestly, this speculation about our downfall and uncontrolled hate towards our users is driving me up the walls! 

Reason 8 literally is the most successful version ever, both upgrades and full versions. We're not closing the forums because of criticism, I don't know where this idea comes from. Every version has had tons of criticism! If that was the reason the forum would've closed with Reason 3 ("What, no new instruments? What's this stupid Combinator!?"). Heck, if you check Twitter or Facebook you'll see that we get criticism there too.

Closing the forums and Reason 8 being successful does not mean we're not listening to feedback either! We'll keep developing our applications and try making them as good as can be. All feedback is appreciated and remember, developing software takes time.

I've said this time and time again but it seems it's worth repeating again: the forums isn't the place to communicate with Propellerhead, and hasn't been for a while. That many think it is, is part of the problem. We love getting feedback - good or bad - and there are tons of way to send it. Via the feedback e-mail on propellerheads.se/contact, as a message on Facebook, a tweet etc. However, we're not able to continuously monitor the forums.

If any of you guys have any questions that I can answer, I will do my best to answer them. And I'll most likely check in on ReasonTalk now and then too. 

***********************************

Quote:
Originally Posted by Smedberg 
I think a minority used it to communicate with you.
Majority used it as an interaction between Reason users.

Right, and that's fair, but I'm seeing tons of complaints about "Propellerhead not listening" in the context of the forums which leads me to believe that many does indeed see it as a way to communicate with us.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanofWaves 
I think the problem is you not telling us WHY it has to go down Matthias.

It's a combination of many things, but I wasn't personally involved in the decision. Primarily, we're launching a brand new website and we believe that the age of hosting a user forum on the site is over. There are so many great user-driven communities and a vast majority of users engage with us, other companies, friends and other like-minded people on social media. They find tutorials on YouTube and info on Google. There's nothing wrong with an unofficial forum (ReasonTalk looks great so far!) either, especially not if it's for users interacting with each other.

On a personal level, I also always thought it was problematic that a new blue-eyed Reason user googling for Reason could end up in a thread with two people tearing each others' eyes out and - since they were on propellerheads.se - think that was representative of Reason users. 

Anyway, while it might not be all the "whys" you hoped for, I hope it's somehow explanatory.

******************************************************

Quote:
Originally Posted by Grumbleweed 
When it's the same few people - and you know that's the case - Propellerhead could have done something about it. 

Grum.

I did, repeatedly, but we're a small company and it was hard to keep up. This is not the main reason for closing though - like I said, a personal reflection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deankay 
I'm sure you mean "Representative of Propellerhead" not Reason users? 
It's obvious you're trying to protect yourselves, not the user as you say.

I don't need you to protect my image, I'm fine. Especially not by taking something away that is clearly important to us "Users".
If you really had our best interests at heart, you'd make it work for us.
C'est la vie, I guess

Both actually. I don't think it was good for anyone, personally, but of course I think it was bad for Propellerhead too. Also I think "Users" is a tricky word as it's hardly ever the case that it means "all users". Depending on who says it, it means a different group of people that can vary in size. For example, when you say "us", who do you mean exactly?

Anyway, I'm rambling! I haven't had my coffee yet. It's definitely not my intention to get into any arguments. 

**************************************

Quote:
Originally Posted by doinky 
I don't know. I'm still hearing we closed it because users were trying to communicate to us through it; reality; we couldn't control the constructive criticism here and decided to nuke the forum.

I'm hearing, this was representative of reason fans and looked bad on us. Reality; when criticism was made about reason 8, props let others knock it down over and over with some of the rudest comments and Tom foolery ever. But did nothing to really address the need for "no men" in it's life and thanking the forum with " we are looking into addressing the concerns and thank you" in a sticky. ..."yeah! Props rule for all"


But that's not true. Sure, there was criticism here but there always is. Please understand that we appreciate feedback (I believe I said so numerous times during launch!), we love it! We did not close the forum because some people didn't like Reason 8. Some people always don't like Reason. This is not something new. 

It'd be a bit strange to create a sticky that says "we are addressing the concerns, thank you" as we can't guarantee exactly what we will be doing. We also can't gauge how big a concern is without a bigger picture how all users received the upgrade. Not saying we won't fix some stuff that was mentioned by the way, I'm sure we will, but it's really irrelevant to the forum closing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by davidvilla 
Ok, since you're talking... 

1. Define "most successful". 

2. It's the most successful version amongst whom? Hawaiians? Midgets? 

3. What metric are you basing this on?

4. Did you yourself personally look at the sales data or are you merely re-spouting what Ernst told you?

My day job is in data analytics so I know how common it is to "spin" the data any which way to make yourself look better.

It's completely OK to ask these things without being passive-aggressive. Contrary to popular belief, we're not evil.  Most companies wouldn't talk to their users about how a product is doing but we thought it would help put some things in perspective and stem the worry that "Reason 8 was a failure" and that "this means the end for Propellerhead". What I can say without giving too many confidential things away is that Reason 8 is the most successful upgrade, based on total units and revenue. And no, not just for Hawaiians. And yes, I have seen sales data. I work in Sales, Marketing & Customer Relations. 

[normen]

QED





.

[EnochLight]

And it's been said again:

Reason 8 is the most successful upgrade, based on total units and revenue.

I'm certain that some will chime in here and say it's marketing BS and lies, but seriously - can we put this to rest now?  I don't know how many times an official Propellerhead has to make an official statement for it to be accurate or representative of the subject at hand.

[selig]

I'm content in never knowing what was behind all this - they're still not saying why and I have to ask myself "does it matter"? My answer is "no". 

We can NEVER know the "why" if they don't talk, just as we can never know for sure how many copies of R8 were sold compared to past versions. 

But we CAN argue about it and discuss it in minutia until the cow come home, which is exactly what would have happened on the old PUF and why I'm suggesting a different approach here.

I suggest moving on; let's stay positive and dwell on what we want to happen, now what happened that we didn't want to happen! Let's discuss what we CAN control, and where we want to go, and plot a positive course for this new community.

[Reason101]

Selig,
I agree about the forum issues. I don't care why they made a decision to nix it. I DO care that the decision to nix it was made. And I DO feel it's a natural human curiosity to know why. Nothing wrong with that.

As for R8 sales, they can claim anything they want. I'll just point to a common statement I've seen certain members of the Props post here and there in social media circles: "Show me, or it didn't happen."

As to the "why" is this important? Because the future of Propellerhead depends on it. And by extension, the future of how we (all of us here) work with audio.

Pretty important issues. Not simply minutia.

[EnochLight]

I'm content in never knowing what was behind all this - they're still not saying why and I have to ask myself "does it matter"? My answer is "no". 

We can NEVER know the "why" if they don't talk, just as we can never know for sure how many copies of R8 were sold compared to past versions. 

But we CAN argue about it and discuss it in minutia until the cow come home, which is exactly what would have happened on the old PUF and why I'm suggesting a different approach here.

I suggest moving on; let's stay positive and dwell on what we want to happen, now what happened that we didn't want to happen! Let's discuss what we CAN control, and where we want to go, and plot a positive course for this new community.

I agree with this.  Thanks Selig.

[katerli1]

thnx for the head up! would appreciate if this forum is moving in some kind of post puf areas with a more positive focus on reason. at least i`m visiting regulary these focus because i`m still enthusiastic about reason and want to share this with like minded persons all over the globe. so stay positive!!!

[Ostermilk]

QED


.

Maybe, but I'm sure some will be engaged in further investigation and testing.

Not that any of us can do anything about the business decisions a company makes.

We either buy their products because they serve us or we don't.

Me, I'm just glad the saner core of the active community made it's own way here regardless of the outcome of a boardroom decision because I really like hanging out with you guys who like me use the same pretty cool product for making music.

I also feel much better about the moderator group here and as a result much more confident that the lunatics are less likely to take over this particular asylum.

[challism]

Well said Ostermilk and Selig.  I agree.  Let's focus on the positive and make this place better than PUF ever was.  I am hopeful that at least with some good moderators we can keep this place civil and have fewer flame wars.

[selig]

Selig,
I agree about the forum issues. I don't care why they made a decision to nix it. I DO care that the decision to nix it was made. And I DO feel it's a natural human curiosity to know why. Nothing wrong with that.

As for R8 sales, they can claim anything they want. I'll just point to a common statement I've seen certain members of the Props post here and there in social media circles: "Show me, or it didn't happen."

As to the "why" is this important? Because the future of Propellerhead depends on it. And by extension, the future of how we (all of us here) work with audio.

Pretty important issues. Not simply minutia.

I think you missed my point, which is simply "what's the point?"!

My comment about minutia was that I felt no point in arguing the minutia of this situation here ad infinitum! That's exactly what is going on over at the PUF at present IMO, and I don't see it leading anywhere - or am I totally missing something here?

Are the reasons for the PUF closing an important enough issue to keep discussing here (and to what end)? If so, I suggest this conversation should probably be in the Lounge anyway, as it's not about Reason General and is more a "speculation" thread as far as I can tell. 

[selig]

QED


.

Maybe, but I'm sure some will be engaged in further investigation and testing.

Not that any of us can do anything about the business decisions a company makes.

We either buy their products because they serve us or we don't.

Me, I'm just glad the saner core of the active community made it's own way here regardless of the outcome of a boardroom decision because I really like hanging out with you guys who like me use the same pretty cool product for making music.

I also feel much better about the moderator group here and as a result much more confident that the lunatics are less likely to take over this particular asylum.

The key is to put the lunatics in charge of the asylum!

[Purpleb]

What the heck is a PUF? I have a foggy distant memory of it, but that is about it.

All I know is RUF.
Also my dog talks about this forum all day long, he won't shut up about it.

So for short what do you guys and gals prefer, RUF or RTUF?

[atitlan]

The "R8 was the most successful" amuses me a little.  It's a bit like album sales - the current sales are in large part due to the reputation generated by the last release.  If R8 has had lot of sales and upgrades it will largely be due to peoples expectation based on 7 and prior.

Let's see what 8.5 and 9 look like - particularly if the features added again don't match user expectations.

[rvman]

Even if PH released printouts and statements, there would be folks saying it's a lie.

All I know is that Reason 8 is awesome, even with it's quirks. And I'm having a blast with it.

[jfrichards]

... My comment about minutia was that I felt no point in arguing the minutia of this situation here ad infinitum! That's exactly what is going on over at the PUF at present IMO, and I don't see it leading anywhere - or am I totally missing something here?
Are the reasons for the PUF closing an important enough issue to keep discussing here (and to what end)? If so, I suggest this conversation should probably be in the Lounge anyway, as it's not about Reason General and is more a "speculation" thread as far as I can tell. 

This thread could degenerate into endless back and forth over the statements by Ernst and Mattias, but I would hope that it stays in the constructive realm that has been established by ReasonTalk.  I think this subject, if treated with care by constructive minds, could be quite valuable.  For example, it is fairly clear from Mattias that Props is switching over to Twitter, Facebook ,Youtube and Google as the method for receiving and responding to user comments.  As well as advocating the formal feedback and support channels on their company website.  People can disagree as much as they like, and that discussion would certainly degenerate quickly, but the path advocated by them is real and the group that has migrated to ReasonTalk should take it seriously as a factor when making their plans to remain vibrant members of the Reason user world.  I think that it would be a mistake to keep all the wisdom of the ReasonTalk members walled off from the Reason social media world.  And that opinion of mine is not coming from a kid who thinks their iPhone is the whole world.

There are numerous other points raised by Mattias that can be taken seriously and will have an impact on the ReasonTalk world.  I agree the speculative stuff (like do the Props suck or not?) should take place in The Lounge.

[selig]

I'll move this to the lounge since it's not about Reason, but about the PUF. 
Carry on!

[littlejam]

hello,

this was a killer of a movie (although stating it here does really plot spoil the whole thing)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1772264/?re ... lmg_act_16

gandhi as his alter ego

:s0826: , j

[Marketblandings]

Even if PH released printouts and statements, there would be folks saying it's a lie. All I know is that Reason 8 is awesome, even with it's quirks. And I'm having a blast with it.

I don't have R8 but I sure have found that the propellerhead experience is 98% positive for me. The software excels at most things but has odd omissions in the most basic select/edit/paste/listen/relisten functions. Stuff my software from the 1990's had!

[avasopht]

As for R8 sales, they can claim anything they want. I'll just point to a common statement I've seen certain members of the Props post here and there in social media circles: "Show me, or it didn't happen."

Thing is, no matter what they say, to the overly sceptical, they'll always continue raising question after question until they don't get an answer, after which they'll proclaim, "they're hiding data," or, "they're making figures up."

They said it's their most successful version. What percentage of "most successful campaign" announcements have been a misrepresentation?

It just turns into uber pointless arguments. It's like debating with conspiracy theorists. "But how do you know the world isn't really ran by lizards disguised as human beings?" You can't prove them wrong even though their suspicions are irrational. And they'll ignore any rational explanation too, meaning any "debate" just turns into an exchange of irrational suspicion versus reserved rationale.



It's these reasons why I commend Mattias for taking the time out to respond to forum members. Personally I'd not have said anything just on the basis that people will believe whatever they want to believe regardless of what people with real knowledge actually know and say.

[Reason101]

hmm. I don't think I'm being a conspiracy theorist here. I think it's perfectly justified to question whether R8 is indeed the best and most profitable release they've had, especially when all we have to go on is the word of the company itself.

If Bill Gates said that Microsoft Windows 8 is the best and most profitable release they've ever had, would you blindly believe him? I seem to recall tobacco companies saying cigarettes weren't harmful too. Maybe we should have believed them?

It's also not as if it's completely unprovable by fact either. Show us some stats from an impartial party. I'd be satisfied.

Until then, I'll be skeptical. I'm not going to believe any company based on what their PR rep says. That would be folly. But hey, it's all part of the minutia. And I must be smoking something.

I agree this is a lounge topic though. Good idea to move it. Hopefully we don't need to keep moving posts around though. Took me a while to find out where it was again. And that's just annoying.

Keep up the great work though.

[avasopht]

hmm. I don't think I'm being a conspiracy theorist here. I think it's perfectly justified to question whether R8 is indeed the best and most profitable release they've had, especially when all we have to go on is the word of the company itself.

If Bill Gates said that Microsoft Windows 8 is the best and most profitable release they've ever had, would you blindly believe him? I seem to recall tobacco companies saying cigarettes weren't harmful too. Maybe we should have believed them?

It's also not as if it's completely unprovable by fact either. Show us some stats from an impartial party. I'd be satisfied.

Until then, I'll be skeptical. I'm not going to believe any company based on what their PR rep says. That would be folly. But hey, it's all part of the minutia. And I must be smoking something.

I agree this is a lounge topic though. Good idea to move it. Hopefully we don't need to keep moving posts around though. Took me a while to find out where it was again. And that's just annoying.

Keep up the great work though.

There's a big difference between:
"Our product is the best"

and

"This is our most successful campaign"

He's seen the figures himself on upgrades for a start, so we can assume he's claiming that the figures of upgrades (at the very least) is the most successful for upgrades. He gives a metric, sales and revenue.



yeah yeah yeah, you'll never know they're not making things up, but really? I mean, how can you have any meaningful and logical discussions if you are overly suspicious like that? You can't.

Given there is never any certainty in life the rational approach is to employ a reasonable amount of trust, otherwise you'll just go round in circles. I mean, who says there's really any oil left? or that the power plants will be able to supply electricity beyond next week? They could all be lying.



You are essentially saying, unsuccessful until proven otherwise. That is a biased verdict, and it is a verdict because it is unreasonable to expect your demands for disproof to ever be met based on historical data on companies using third parties to verify their public statements of sales

But like I said to kategra84, let's put down £100 (dollars or euros), and if Propellerhead shuts down within the next 2 years I buy you VSTs, otherwise you buy me Rack Extensions. I know for certain I'll win

Kategra84 immediately moved the goalposts when I made that wager

[Reason101]

I'll just agree to disagree with you. I respect your position. I just don't believe everything I'm told. I have always been one to keep questioning and require facts before believing. Call me a conspiracy theorist or skeptical or what have you. I'm ok with that.

I leave blind faith for my spiritual life. Not for corporations whose only interest are profits.

[joeyluck]

I'll just agree to disagree with you. I respect your position. I just don't believe everything I'm told. I have always been one to keep questioning and require facts before believing. Call me a conspiracy theorist or skeptical or what have you. I'm ok with that.

I leave blind faith for my spiritual life. Not for corporations whose only interest are profits.

Well, aside from sales from Propellerhead directly (which you know what their answer is), you could call up all the resellers and ask them, "What's the best selling version of Reason?" Tell them it's a project for school and maybe they'll be willing to share some info   Otherwise, I would say to just accept it as truth and try not to let it bother you =)  

Rack Extensions have brought Propellerhead and Reason more attention from many RE developers' channels.
Figure and Take have brought Propellerhead more attention and have in turn brought Reason more attention.  It's not hard for me to believe that Reason 8 is the best selling thus far based solely on the increased exposure of the product.

[selig]

hmm. I don't think I'm being a conspiracy theorist here. I think it's perfectly justified to question whether R8 is indeed the best and most profitable release they've had, especially when all we have to go on is the word of the company itself.

If Bill Gates said that Microsoft Windows 8 is the best and most profitable release they've ever had, would you blindly believe him? I seem to recall tobacco companies saying cigarettes weren't harmful too. Maybe we should have believed them?

It's also not as if it's completely unprovable by fact either. Show us some stats from an impartial party. I'd be satisfied.

Until then, I'll be skeptical. I'm not going to believe any company based on what their PR rep says. That would be folly. But hey, it's all part of the minutia. And I must be smoking something.

I agree this is a lounge topic though. Good idea to move it. Hopefully we don't need to keep moving posts around though. Took me a while to find out where it was again. And that's just annoying.

Keep up the great work though.

Indeed, and I apologize for moving stuff abruptly mid-conversation - I'm new to this job, can you tell?!?

As for questioning the information, of course it should always be questioned. But you are asking rhetorical questions, right, since we don't expect the props to show up here presenting stats from an impartial party any time soon, do we?    

But seriously, one of you is saying there's no way to ever know for sure so why be overly suspicious, the other saying you should still question things and not just take their word for what they say. I don't actually see any disagreement there, as I agree with both positions!