Covid Shot and Reason

[platzangst]

I am absolutely serious. And It's not "elaborate copypasta" but my own summarized research. That jpeg just visualizes what happens in virology. Go and check by yourself on what methods is based the whole virology. Either you will blindly BELIEVE to the authorities or you just make same effort to check what they do in the reality.

With all due respect, this is why discussions like this can devolve into heated arguments. You've made an assertion of fact, but don't really back it up, you say it is just so. You know it's against most accepted views, but you don't really provide any evidence, you just say to "check it yourself" - and then you imply that anyone who doesn't is some kind of blind believer.

This is your contention, I think the greater burden is on you to prove what you want to say, rather than insist that others spend time doing work to support your argument.

[plaamook]

At a glance from the NHS website in the uk. Up to Sept this year it still looks like it's mostly the elderly.

I wouldn't want to rely on a screen shot of a table out of context from some larger article. But on the other hand I will cop to actually having remembered that Delta is putting kids in hospital far more often than prior variants. Hospitalization, of course, isn't the same as death, so if you want to slice things that finely, knock yourself out.

In any case, one gets vaccinated in no small part to protect those around oneself who are elderly and/or have co-morbidities. It really isn't that big of an imposition at this point — even if you are sympathetic to the initially reluctant — and hasn't been for months.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... 021-report

[integerpoet]

People shouldn't be blamed for having questions. But what's an example of a related question for which we don't have a good answer?

I don't know. I just assume that with a population of whatever billion there's bound to be questions that can't be answered.

Maybe, but without an example of even one of them it's a little difficult to worry much about the possibility.

For me? I've got a 13yr old daughter who may need to get vax'd for school or whatever in the not too distant future. Can anyone garantee that she will 100% not experience any bad side effects in the short or long term?

In the short term, I think there is a decent chance she will experience unpleasant side effects. Many people do; I did. For most, they are totally worthwhile. Consult her doctor to see whether it's likely she's an outlier.

It's true that nobody knows the long-term side-effects of the vaccines. But it's also true that nobody knew that for prior vaccines either. It's also true that the vaccines on offer aren't especially interesting and that we know vaccination generally doesn't have long-term side-effects. So there's really no reason to go looking for worry here.

It's also true that we do know the short-term and long-term effects of infection and they can be pretty damned bad. You're risking yourself either way, and refusing to get vaccinated extends that risk to others.

[integerpoet]

my own summarized research

What qualifies you to do your own research in this area and post it publicly with the expectation that others will take it seriously?

Even if your credentials are impeccable, why should those of us who aren't experts in the field take your word for anything over and above that of a preponderance of recognized experts?

[dusan.cani]

With all due respect, this is why discussions like this can devolve into heated arguments. You've made an assertion of fact, but don't really back it up, you say it is just so. You know it's against most accepted views, but you don't really provide any evidence, you just say to "check it yourself" - and then you imply that anyone who doesn't is some kind of blind believer.

This is your contention, I think the greater burden is on you to prove what you want to say, rather than insist that others spend time doing work to support your argument.

The evidence is in any publised virology paper about the "virus isolation" ...not enough ?

The evidence is the fact I already mentioned:

So in virology, there is no scientific clinical experiment which measures and observes COMPLETE "virus" particles in their "action" - that these particles came into to organism from outside by natural way, then attacked the cells, self replicating and then causing harm in the organism, for example pneumonia. This biological process is just fairy tale, it isn't scientifically proved in any way, anywhere. It's a crystal clear unrefutable fact that nobody is able to deny.

And the burden of the proof is not on me, but on the someone who starts with a claim that "virus" physically exists and is a cause of the disease. But there is no evidence of it at all. Theories are not evidence. Just find some clinical experiment presenting purified virus and demonstrated to cause the disease. It does not exist.

[dusan.cani]

What qualifies you to do your own research in this area and post it publicly with the expectation that others will take it seriously?

All you need is just a following a basic logic and ask the questions. And a little bit of effort and willingnes to know the basics of biology.

[jam-s]

But there is no evidence of it at all. Theories are not evidence. Just find some clinical experiment presenting purified virus and demonstrated to cause the disease. It does not exist.

Oh boy, those experiments do exist (most were done in the late 1800s and early 1900s but can be reproduced today.). Due to ethical reasons those experiments are of course not done with humans, but plants (or sometimes animals) usually. If you don't believe it here's an experiment you could try:

1. Print the proteins and RNA of TMV using a bio-printer.
2. let them assemble and
3. infect a few tobacco plants
4. compare them to non-infected tobacco plants from the same batch.

[dusan.cani]

Had you watched the whole series of lectures you'd have seen lots of the evidence. But obviously you're not interested in a discussion, so well, have a good live.

Where exactly in those "lectures" is reference to real scientific experiment that presents purified complete viral particles and shows that these particles alone caused harm in the organism ?

If you can't directly answer that question, all other is irrelevant regarding the claim that "specific virus particle is the cause of disease".

[plaamook]

It's true that nobody knows the long-term side-effects of the vaccines. But it's also true that nobody knew that for prior vaccines either. It's also true that the vaccines on offer aren't especially interesting and that we know vaccination generally doesn't have long-term side-effects. So there's really no reason to go looking for worry here.

I'm not looking for worry. It's come looking for me!
Honestly I figure it's prob fine. But there's always this thing in the back of my mind, an instinct to wait as long as I can to watch what happens. You take your chances either way but there's a reason they carefully track vaccines for a few years after they start using them. VAERS data and so on.
In ten years I'll feel a little more relaxed, but she'll be an adult by then.

[dusan.cani]

But there is no evidence of it at all. Theories are not evidence. Just find some clinical experiment presenting purified virus and demonstrated to cause the disease. It does not exist.

Oh boy, those experiments do exist (most were done in the late 1800s and early 1900s but can be reproduced today.). Due to ethical reasons those experiments are of course not done with humans, but plants (or sometimes animals) usually. If you don't believe it here's an experiment you could try:

1. Print the proteins and RNA of TMV using a bio-printer.
2. let them assemble and
3. infect a few tobacco plants
4. compare them to non-infected tobacco plants from the same batch.

I don't need to perform any experiment by myself. But those responsible for the covid tyranny should present the evidence of "SARS-CoV-2" and that it causes harm in the organism. If you can't provide reference to the scientific experiment which proves it, than what we are talking about ? Did you read the chinese paper of the first published genome of "SARS-CoV-2" ? Do you see any evidence of virus and its harmfull behavior there ? Are you aware of what they did in this study claiming they found "virus" in the concoction of lung sample from patient ?

[integerpoet]

What qualifies you to do your own research in this area and post it publicly with the expectation that others will take it seriously?

All you need is just a following a basic logic and ask the questions. And a little bit of effort and willingnes to know the basics of biology.

I take it, then, that you can claim no qualifications. Deserving to be taken seriously in such fields requires more than common sense and curiosity.

[jam-s]

Had you watched the whole series of lectures you'd have seen lots of the evidence. But obviously you're not interested in a discussion, so well, have a good live.

Where exactly in those "lectures" is reference to real scientific experiment that presents purified complete viral particles and shows that these particles alone caused harm in the organism ?

If you can't directly answer that question, all other is irrelevant regarding the claim that "specific virus particle is the cause of disease".

This one is on the house: Right in lecture 1 @41:20: Light microscope image of just the Pandoravirus particles.
So obviously you have not watched it. In the further run of the course there are many more images from different kinds of viruses. But I'm not going to do the homework for you here. Cheers.

[dusan.cani]

Where exactly in those "lectures" is reference to real scientific experiment that presents purified complete viral particles and shows that these particles alone caused harm in the organism ?

If you can't directly answer that question, all other is irrelevant regarding the claim that "specific virus particle is the cause of disease".

This one is on the house: Right in lecture 1 @41:20: Light microscope image of just the Pandoravirus particles.

This is not image of a "human virus". It's image of purified particles from amoeba. They say it's "virus" but in reality it's never shown that these particles caused negative effects to the host. Anyway this is absolutely irrelevant to what I am asking for. This is not scientific experiment that shows real human "virus" and it's harmful behaviour to the organism.

[jam-s]

This is not image of a "human virus". It's image of purified particles from amoeba. They say it's "virus" but in reality it's never shown that these particles caused negative effects to the host. Anyway this is absolutely irrelevant to what I am asking for. This is not scientific experiment that shows real human "virus" and it's harmful behaviour to the organism.

I already told you that experiments on humans are not possible due to ethical reasons, so take your straw-man and try to get your findings and theories published in a peer-reviewed magazine. We can then continue the discussion afterwards when you can link to that paper of yours. Have a nice day.

p.s.: Ep #2 of the lecture deals with pretty much of your concerns.

[BumCuddle]

Hey, out of curiousity, as an aside...Are you British or American or what?
I'm just curious what the Bum in BumCuddle means. Big difference depending on where you're from.
Bit like fanny...

I'm UK based so it suggests the squeezing of buttocks whilst in a hug with your significant other...or anyone really

[plaamook]

Hey, out of curiousity, as an aside...Are you British or American or what?
I'm just curious what the Bum in BumCuddle means. Big difference depending on where you're from.
Bit like fanny...

I'm UK based so it suggests the squeezing of buttocks whilst in a hug with your significant other...or anyone really

A perfect note to exit this thread on.
Thank you for clarifying that point.

Zzz

[platzangst]

The evidence is in any publised virology paper about the "virus isolation" ...not enough ?

No, frankly. The history of virus discoveries and research has been around for centuries; few if any people have made any claim that there's a particular factor lacking in that research that invalidates common scientific knowledge. And this is just bad-faith arguing. If I say that the Earth is flat, and when asked to prove it, I just say "look around at all the flatness!", that's not really providing evidence, that's sidestepping the issue. If there's so many bits of evidence, it shouldn't be that hard to find one you can link to that actually supports your claim.

Plus, it sounds like you're saying viral diseases like polio or the flu don't actually exist, which is kind of incredible.

[dusan.cani]

I already told you that experiments on humans are not possible due to ethical reasons

How can you claim that "virus" causes harm in the organism if you can't scientifically observe, measure and demonstrate this biological process in real life ?

According to the basic logic you just need to take sample from patient, directly there find and SEPARATE alleged "virus" particles, biochemically analyze their structure (if there is really some specific RNA molecule and proteins), then take the purified sample and for example spray it to volunteer by natural way to see if the symptoms occur. Then, if the symptoms occur, try to find those alleged "virus" particles directly in the volunteer again to confirm their presence in another host. This is the only possible way which indicates that there could be some connection between specific particles and the disease. But they don't do it. And this process still won't show what exactly happens inside the body at the molecular level.

You are forced to wear those unhealthy masks, but nobody is able to find that complete, intact "virus" particle in the saliva, or anywhere else. This is aboslutely ridiculous.

And the "ethical reasons" is very poor excuse to cover up something that cannot be found in the reality. On the other way, those experiments were performed in 1919 during "spanish flu". They tried experimentally "infect" volunteers (without any purified "virus" sample) and they have failed. It's all reported in public health service from that era. So they gave up with this "human experiments" and started to abusing the innocent animals to defend their flawed "virus" theory.

If the poisoned cell culture is not enough, they torture the poor animals by injecting them with toxic concoctions consisting of dying and decaying cells and tissues. They violently harm the poor animals by cruel procedures and they say that the resulting damage is caused by "virus". Is this according to the "ethical reasons" for you ?

By the way, the real "experiment on humans" is happening right now, by injecting those harmful vaccines into the unaware people.

so take your straw-man and try to get your findings and theories published in a peer-reviewed magazine. We can then continue the discussion afterwards when you can link to that paper of yours. Have a nice day.

I am not talking about any "theories". I am referreing directly to the methods used in the virology. It's all stated directly in their own papers, as I said earlier:

I don't need to perform any experiment by myself. But those responsible for the covid tyranny should present the evidence of "SARS-CoV-2" and that it causes harm in the organism. If you can't provide reference to the scientific experiment which proves it, then what we are talking about ? Did you read the chinese paper of the first published genome of "SARS-CoV-2" ? Do you see any evidence of virus and its harmfull behavior there ? Are you aware of what they did in this study claiming they found "virus" in the concoction of lung sample from patient ?

[dusan.cani]

Plus, it sounds like you're saying viral diseases like polio or the flu don't actually exist, which is kind of incredible.

I am talking about the CAUSE of the disease. Please read my comments carefully.

[jam-s]

more straw-man argumentation.

You really should have watched this years lecture #2 and spared yourself this embarrassment.

[dusan.cani]

The evidence is in any publised virology paper about the "virus isolation" ...not enough ?

No, frankly. The history of virus discoveries and research has been around for centuries;

It doesn't mean anything, that something is there for "centuries". Is this your argument for evidence of "virus" ? You are still not able to show scientific clinical experiment demonstrating the purified "virus" and its pathogenicity in the humans. Yet, you are still believing that some invisible boogeyman is exclusively responsible for whatever symptoms of the disease. Isn't that incredible ?

[jam-s]

[...]Yet, you are still believing that some invisible boogieman is exclusively responsible for whatever symptoms of the disease. Isn't that incredible ?

Here's your "boogieman":

[dusan.cani]

Here's your "boogieman": ...

Sorry It should be "boogeyman", I am not native english speaker

You posted cartoons in that video. Not published scientific clinical experiment about boogeyman existence.

[jam-s]

You posted cartoons in that video. Not published scientific clinical experiment about boogeyman existence.

Yes, I "lied" to you and I'll have to do it again ...

p.s.: If you're really interested in the hard science, I think trying to find the answer in a (very cool) music forum is not the way to go. A first step would be to actually learn more about the mechanisms and the experiments done and why you can trust the results from those and then transfer the results to new analogous viruses. Also there is very much publicly available research on the nCov-19 virus and you can then follow the references to check back on their methodology. Also most authors/researchers would be willing to answer direct questions on their research, if the question is showing that the person asking has done their homework.

[moneykube]

I found the research here eye oping... yes these are reported adverse reactions and mostly unverified scientifically at this point.... but when I checked the stats for the first 3 months this year, it gave me something to think about. I have met many people or people related to people that have had quite adverse reactions. We still do not know what the long term effects might be. In ALL the mRNA covid vax attempts in the past ( there have been many attempts) the result was the death of all the animals in their studies. This time WE are the study group !
https://vaers.hhs.gov/about.html