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dioxide
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08 Sep 2017

Gorgon wrote:
08 Sep 2017
So having an opinion means that you can just attack people. More leftist logic.
You're making a bunch of assumptions about my opinions on things here. I didn't say I thought it was acceptable to attack people and I don't believe it is. However if you're going to act like an instigator then you shouldn't be too surprised if someone decides to do something about it. Not everyone thinks like I do, and many people see behaviour like this as looking for trouble.

Traditionally the right in the US were also libertarian and mostly they still are. You basically can do anything you want so long as you're willing to live with the consequences. This is a libertarian outlook on life. There are four dimensions of politics, left-right and a libertarian-totalitarian scale so thinking only in terms of left-right is too simplistic.

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selig
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08 Sep 2017

Gorgon wrote:
selig wrote:
06 Sep 2017
For another, more balanced (IMO) view:
Yeah I'm sure those raped women will be thrilled with a more "balanced" view.
My point was that there is more than one set of 'facts' being reported - I'm open to learning which one is true.


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Noplan
Posts: 419
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Location: Cologne, Germany

08 Sep 2017

You have no go areas in most countries. The reasons are many and varied and that's why every political camp has a good argument. Personally i think the main problem is that the population is divided in poor and rich and the gap is growing.

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selig
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08 Sep 2017

Tau Ceti wrote:I live in Sweden and it is not as bad as in USA but in some areas there are shootings almost every day.
There are cars burning almost every night and when the police comes people start throwing stones and bottles at them and at the fire department.
Ambulances never drives into these areas without the police following.

In proportion to the population, four to five times as many fatalities are shot in Sweden as in Norway and Germany.

When i grew up Sweden was one of the safest countrys in the world.
Now its not.
It's #10 right now - I'd still call that "one of the safest countries in the world" myself…
I think what folks are commenting on is the drop of 5 places from last year!
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style ... 15221.html


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jappe
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09 Sep 2017

ejanuska wrote:
05 Sep 2017
Are people in Sweden allowed to talk about the so-called "No-go" zones? Have you ever gone to a "No-go" zone?
It's allowed to talk about, and it's also allowed to disagree about the naming "No Go" zones.

What people can agree about here is that there are areas in Sweden where the emergency services are harassed by stone throwers when they show up.

Those areas have severe problems with criminality, and I think basically the main problem is crime syndicates, and our current and past governments complete failure in preventing and dealing with that.
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plaamook
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10 Sep 2017

selig wrote:
08 Sep 2017
My point was that there is more than one set of 'facts' being reported - I'm open to learning which one is true.
Figuring out what is true is becoming increasingly difficult these days.

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avasopht
Posts: 1555
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11 Sep 2017

plaamook wrote:
10 Sep 2017
selig wrote:
08 Sep 2017
My point was that there is more than one set of 'facts' being reported - I'm open to learning which one is true.
Figuring out what is true is becoming increasingly difficult these days.
It's really not that difficult.

Unpoliticize everything. Use the tools science developed to examine information rationally and to eliminate bias. Identify sources. Know the difference between a fact and an opinion. Dig deeper. For instance, figures seem to indicate that the US has better cancer treatment than the UK. But it's not that simple, because the US and the the UK report and treat cancer differently, screen differently, and treat different severities of cancer (which in itself would skew results).

Fear is a powerful bias. Even if you're not sitting at your desk shaking at your boots, our brains are wired to be more accepting of fearful views.

Also gain perceptiveness of the narrative behind an idea.

So yes, it seems there are no-go areas in Sweden. How large are they? Nobody has said. Is it just the ends of a few cul-de-sacs? Are these no-go areas entire housing complexes? Is it the size of a shopping mall?

Without specifics we tend to fuzzily fill in the blanks and don't even realize we're doing it.

There are no-go areas in practically every country. There are criminals born into every population. Sweden had a strong culture that resulted in far fewer violent criminals. Immigration has introduced Sweden to criminals who are much more organized and violent than they are used to. That level of criminality is a cancer, but it's incredibly difficult to tackle without potentially making more innocent casualties.

As for rape. We don't have comparable figures because rape is defined differently in Sweden. You may even find that if we applied the Swedish definition of rape in America or England, you might find it is much higher everywhere else. Without a comparison of the same measure a comparison cannot be made.

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plaamook
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12 Sep 2017

avasopht wrote:
11 Sep 2017
plaamook wrote:
10 Sep 2017


Figuring out what is true is becoming increasingly difficult these days.
It's really not that difficult...
I agree to an extent but many times I've reserched something and arrived at what I thought was something like the truth only to be presented with data from a totally unexpected direction that's demande I redefine my position.
I don't even think it's necessarilly malace that's behind the confusion so much as it's just complexity much of the time.

Either way I find it exhausting. So many directions... it's a full time job at this point trying to stay on top of it all.

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aeox
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12 Sep 2017

plaamook wrote:
12 Sep 2017
avasopht wrote:
11 Sep 2017


It's really not that difficult...
I agree to an extent but many times I've reserched something and arrived at what I thought was something like the truth only to be presented with data from a totally unexpected direction that's demande I redefine my position.
I don't even think it's necessarilly malace that's behind the confusion so much as it's just complexity much of the time.

Either way I find it exhausting. So many directions... it's a full time job at this point trying to stay on top of it all.
It's simple. "Believe nothing you hear, and only one half that you see."

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ejanuska
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12 Sep 2017

The interest in Sweden and No-go zones is precisely because they have enjoyed such a good reputation in the past.
Other countries have no-go zones or bad neighborhoods, but Sweden either didn't have them until recently and/or they have been multiplying/expanding.

The reluctance of the Swedish news to discuss them, along with the levels of violence, make the story more intriguing to me.

To write it off as a right-wing conspiracy in akin to sticking your head in the sand. Of course the globalist left doesn't want to report on this topic. The other twist that I find insane, major news outlets so politicized they won't report on true stories such as this, or for example the NGO migrant ferry service out of Libya.

The previously posted 60 minutes video is crazy. Why do these thugs think they have the right to attack anyone walking down the street? It's amazing to me that the neighborhood isn't too shabby looking. I've been in places that looked worse then that and been treated way better.

Just because the left isn't reporting on something doesn't make it a right-wing conspiracy.

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avasopht
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12 Sep 2017

ejanuska wrote:
12 Sep 2017
Just because the left isn't reporting on something doesn't make it a right-wing conspiracy.
The most dominant news publications over here are right wing.

I don't really see what has this story got to do with left / right wing. A fact is a fact whether you vote for the brown or the purple party.

There is a now known neurological correlation with political views, and it's basically that the right wing tend to be much more affected by fear in their political dispositions [1]. Perhaps this is the cause of politicization of the subject.

Fear does interesting things (distortions) to perception and reasoning. It's interesting watching people lose their head, suggesting extreme responses to social problems such as locking up the parents of children who engage in gang violence or penalizing single parent households. That's not necessarily right-wing by the way, just some fear driven responses I've seen from people.

Fear is what drove that heckler to interrupt Jagmeet Singh so blind sightedly. Her entire rational brain shut down and she just wanted to express her extreme emotions.

On the other hand there without a doubt has been exaggerations by far-right publications. Again, this isn't just a matter of left vs right. There are far-right and far-left publications that report inaccurately.

I personally have female friends in Sweden.

As for what is happening exactly in Sweden. I think it's easy to reduce the complexity of an entire country down to simple talking points in such a way that it is no longer possible to have an accurate discussion. Especially when the discussion, reasoning and phrasing is emotionally motivated.

For instance, "no go areas." I think it's fair to say the phrasing is one that conjurs up something quite distinctly different to what it is. As to why there is no reporting. There are 7 billion people on this planet. A lack of reporting is not always a "leftist" conspiracy either. Like the Rohingyas in Burma who are rarely discussed in the news, or the oppression of Palestinians in Gaza (practically an open air prison they have zero freedom to leave), or the Palestians who have been living in Jordanian concentration camps for over 50 years.

So no, there is little reporting on "no go areas," just as there is little reporting on so many other issues, particularly issues in other countries.

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Gorgon
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12 Sep 2017

"This is a block of text that can be added to posts you make. There is a 255 character limit."

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BonsaiMacKay
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12 Sep 2017

No love for the MOE GO ZONES apparently...
Image

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ejanuska
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12 Sep 2017

avasopht wrote:
12 Sep 2017

The most dominant news publications over here are right wing.

I don't really see what has this story got to do with left / right wing. A fact is a fact whether you vote for the brown or the purple party.

For instance, "no go areas." I think it's fair to say the phrasing is one that conjurs up something quite distinctly different to what it is. As to why there is no reporting. There are 7 billion people on this planet. A lack of reporting is not always a "leftist" conspiracy either. Like the Rohingyas in Burma who are rarely discussed in the news, or the oppression of Palestinians in Gaza (practically an open air prison they have zero freedom to leave), or the Palestians who have been living in Jordanian concentration camps for over 50 years.

So no, there is little reporting on "no go areas," just as there is little reporting on so many other issues, particularly issues in other countries.
As far as I see it the left has a larger news presence in the US and Sweden No-Go stories stymie their globalist agenda.
A fact is a fact IF the facts are accurately reported, but they are not. Who controls the past controls the future.

The Rohingyas in Burma have been getting a lot of press here and I suspect that is so that in case the deep state decides to get all colonial on Bangladesh they have a built in excuse. It's not a new technique, they've been practicing this for decades in dozens of countries. Panama, Cuba, Philippines, Vietnam, etc.

The Palestinian situation in Gaza is hardly reported over here (US), at least not in any favorable terms to the Palestinians. No major news agency will say anything negative against Israel for fear of being labeled anti-semite. Yeah, there is a documentary here and there and its the most hypocritic thing on the planet right now if you ask me. You would have to go to certain ethic enclaves in the US to get any pity for the Palestinians. The average person couldn't care less. The news has been blaming the Palestinians for as long I can remember (50 years), the people have been conditioned to believe/ignore this.

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O1B
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13 Sep 2017

You have to use better code than that. Say 'hi' to Paul Craig Cobb.
He shares your concerns.

globalist left.... right wing.... thugs.... migrants... "fake" news...
Good Night, Nurse.

ejanuska wrote:
12 Sep 2017

To write it off as a right-wing conspiracy in akin to sticking your head in the sand. Of course the globalist left doesn't want to report on this topic. The other twist that I find insane, major news outlets so politicized they won't report on true stories such as this, or for example the NGO migrant ferry service out of Libya.

The previously posted 60 minutes video is crazy. Why do these thugs think they have the right to attack anyone walking down the street? It's amazing to me that the neighborhood isn't too shabby looking. I've been in places that looked worse then that and been treated way better.

Just because the left isn't reporting on something doesn't make it a right-wing conspiracy.

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avasopht
Posts: 1555
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13 Sep 2017

ejanuska wrote:
12 Sep 2017

As far as I see it the left has a larger news presence in the US and Sweden No-Go stories stymie their globalist agenda.
A fact is a fact IF the facts are accurately reported, but they are not. Who controls the past controls the future.
America has no left. Even compared to its own political spectrum just 40 years ago, the Democrats' policies today are what the Republicans policies were back then. Obama would comfortably fill the place of our Conservatives.

It is also pretty incorrect to paint a picture of the left dominating news. Studies show viewership leans a little towards America's left (which is politically centre-right). But the far-right gets plenty of coverage. Comedy leans left simply because it's difficult to do conservative comedy without punching downwards. That's why it just doesn't work as well.

In terms of coverage of Sweden. It's no left conspiracy. It's just not news news. It fits very well within an alarmist news publication to spread irrational fear. Southside bronx could be considered a no-go area. There are streets in the Bronx where once you walk down them, if you don't exit swiftly you will be leaving in nothing but your underwear. That isn't reported on in the UK, not because of a liberal agenda but simply because it's not news news.

As a black male I can tell you there are a fair amount of no-go areas for me in Europe and America. It's not reported at all.

In England we have the benefit of neutral news from the BBC so we actually know what unbiased news looks like.

Funny thing is, when you published unbiased politically neutral news you tend to find political orientations lead to distorted interpretations. You'll often see it interpreted as supporting one's views or being biased against. This happens whether you're a Republican or a Democrat. In fact, identifying oneself as a Republican or a Democrat is the first step towards seeing things through a distorted politicized lens.

It is only when you identify yourself as an independent conscious being with no political affiliation that you can consider yourself to be conscious of and actually thinking about politics. Until then a person will typically skew reality and outsource their opinions to leaders of a political orientation. That doesn't mean one should not lean left or right, just not to outsource one's thinking. A thinking person could happily lean one way but recognize when a candidate on the other side has valid points and ideas.

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avasopht
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13 Sep 2017

ejanuska wrote:
13 Sep 2017
You are a left wing stereotype, call everyone that doesn't lean left a white supremacist.
I think this is one of the major problems in American right now. Politics is overpolarized. There are just as many people on the left who are quick to call someone a white supremacist as there are people on the right who will call people on America's left (though is actually centre-right) marxists and communists.

If you are not meeting with opposing views often you are in an echo chamber. Most people are in echo chambers (including me).

There are intellectual echo chambers. Rational echo chambers. Insanity echo chambers. It never ends. And it's all made worse by social media algorithms that feed you more of what you want to hear!
Last edited by avasopht on 13 Sep 2017, edited 1 time in total.

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selig
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13 Sep 2017

ejanuska wrote:
O1B wrote:
13 Sep 2017
You have to use better code than that. Say 'hi' to Paul Craig Cobb.
He shares your concerns.

globalist left.... right wing.... thugs.... migrants... "fake" news...
Good Night, Nurse.
Code?
I lean a little right sure. There is no "code" about it.
That doesn't make me a white Neo-Nazi so fuck you.
You are a left wing stereotype, call everyone that doesn't lean left a white supremacist.
Fuck off.
Wow, who would have thought a political comment would get a heated response?

Do you guys really have nothing better to do than to resort to name calling?

Consider this a warning all around - keep it civil or take your discussion somewhere else.


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avasopht
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13 Sep 2017

selig wrote:
13 Sep 2017
Consider this a warning all around - keep it civil or take your discussion somewhere else.
Isn't that half of the reason religion and politics were discouraged when RT first started?

It takes a certain amount of patience, care and detachment to discuss matters of such importance in constructively.

...


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selig
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14 Sep 2017

avasopht wrote:
selig wrote:
13 Sep 2017
Consider this a warning all around - keep it civil or take your discussion somewhere else.
Isn't that half of the reason religion and politics were discouraged when RT first started?

It takes a certain amount of patience, care and detachment to discuss matters of such importance in constructively.

...

I personally discouraged them because as a moderator I feel I have better things to do than to babysit the inevitable name calling. There's enough of that with the "mac vs pc" and music threads, but even more then politics and religion come into the picture.

IMO the only way to talk about those last two subjects is to not try to change the other person's mind or care about what they think. Just listen and share - I've had some fantastic conversations taking that approach (but find it difficult to find others interested in the same approach)!
:)


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plaamook
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15 Sep 2017

selig wrote:
14 Sep 2017
...(but find it difficult to find others interested in the same approach)!
:)
That's because it's so hard to do! ;)

I find it much easier to engage whole-heartedly (not sure about the spelling there...) in political discussions without fighting these days. After so-called Brexit and Trumpet and so on... I've just learned to let go of it a bit. Even the people that like to pigeon hole everyone into left/right stereotypes. I find that infuriating but let em. Way I see it the most important thing these days is that we keep talking and try to treat eachother with kindness and respect. Its the only way to prevent society from fracturing even further. I think USA has a real problem with that. Maybe the worst. It's not about winning (or it shouldn't be) it's about looking for the truth as best we can. The density of emotion surrounding it all these days is making that very tricky though. There are people that argue intellectually and people that argue emotionally and mixtures of both. If you're trying to discuss things in a calm rational way it gets tricky when you're up against someone's blazing emotions. I know people, friends, who don't speak to eachother any more and all this happened over the past year. It's nuts.

I have a much bigger problem with religion. I like the idea of respecting peoples beliefs but in the end if you don't belive in any kind of creator god it's hard to watch the tenets of these religions start to impact your world in terms of science, ethics, and so on. I try to just avoid that sort of thing. It doesn't always work.

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Pinkbox
Posts: 167
Joined: 13 Mar 2015

15 Sep 2017

Am I really the only one to understand that, in some situation and at some point of someone's life, it could make sense to burn a car, throw a bottle/rock to someone, hit a cop?
I do not either agree or disagree, but I really understand why this guy, for example, is doingt that. And it is pretty easy.



PS : There's only one no-go zone in France were police tried once to come, and failed. Named "ZAD de notre-dame-des-landes".

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CaliforniaBurrito
Posts: 426
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15 Sep 2017

Pinkbox wrote:
15 Sep 2017
I do not either agree or disagree, but I really understand why this guy, for example, is doingt that. And it is pretty easy.
Too many common sense fails for this to be a real video but please do tell me what exactly you understand about this obscure thirty seconds. I'm curious just from a psychological standpoint.
Buh-bye.

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avasopht
Posts: 1555
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16 Sep 2017

I have to agree with plaamook.

A society that cannot sit down and discuss ideas will collapse.

The reduction of ideas to political affiliations does a lot of harm to people's ability to think deeply about a subject. Now most people simply refer to a party mantras, creating a highly divided political climate that are 1000 times easier to manipulate and introduce policies against their best interests (on both sides of the political spectrum).

In England the people don't always get the best deal, but at least politicians favouring austerity are direct that they are making tough decisions. I don't agree with them, but I understand the rationale. Economics is tricky and their fears may be right.

In America I don't think either of the leading political parties are acting in people's interests on the whole. They are able to do this because people only have 2 real choices, and with those choices comes the sunk cost fallacy.

I think that if people could think more independently they would see a world that better supports their interests. They may even see a new political party arise. Until that is the case they will be further divided until breaking point. England may find it becomes Europe's Mexico, offering cheap labour to a rich continent, or it could become China's Singapore.

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motuscott
Posts: 704
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Location: the new york

16 Sep 2017

fear in their political dispositions [1].

Footnotes.
Really, has it come to that?
Ivan the Threadstopper

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