The Flat Earth Society

[Riverman]

Don't get me wrong, i have nothing against religions in general, nor do i think that religions HAVE to produce wars, violence or intolerance. Still, being (overly) religious/idelogically fixed in any way, and i also mean religions like being green, left-wing, right-wing, anything, usually leads to more bad things than good things IMO.

The majority of the world are religious. The majority of the world is not fighting wars.

And in the middle of atheist Russia, the brilliant thinker Solzhenitsyn said this:

"More than half a century ago, while I was still a child, I recall hearing a number of older people offer the following explanation for the great disasters that had befallen Russia: Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.

Since then I have spent well-nigh fifty years working on the history of our Revolution; in the process I have read hundreds of books, collected hundreds of personal testimonies, and have already contributed eight volumes of my own toward the effort of clearing away the rubble left by that upheaval. But if I were asked today to formulate as concisely as possible the main cause of the ruinous Revolution that swallowed up some sixty million of our people, I could not put it more accurately than to repeat: Men have forgotten God; that's why all this has happened.

What is more, the events of the Russian Revolution can only be understood now, at the end of the century, against the background of what has since occurred in the rest of the world. What emerges here is a process of universal significance. And if I were called upon to identify briefly the principal trait of the entire twentieth century, here too, I would be unable to find anything more precise and pithy than to repeat once again: Men have forgotten God."

Read his full address here:
http://www.roca.org/OA/36/36h.htm

[plaamook]

The thing is many religions actually preach not just a cosmic view but a socio/political one as well. How to eat, pray, fuck, and so on.

Thank goodness for that or humans would behave like animals. You know, rape, pillage, cannibalise children/enemies etc. You know all that stuff that animals do to each other. "Might makes right" and all that.
I mean all Confucianism is, is a social organisation. A desire way to relate to each other. Singapore is Confucian.
Every religion agrees that there's something wrong with us. The religions just have different solutions.
But you look at the world, at the way the rich exploit the poor, the refugee crisis going on in the planet, that way that people who love each other hurt each other, and tell me, that humanity doesn't need God or religions to try and make sense of it all, and find a better way than the law of the jungle to live together.

Yeah, but we don't actually need all that religious crap to be kind towards one another. Another way of looking at it is that 'God' who is a god of love and so on made a world where things need to eat other things in order to live. He/She/It made the universe into might makes right ,kill or be killed. That is if you buy into creation theories. It is humans that invented kindness, not god, God, or any other god. Or I guess you could say that 'god' invented kindness through humans, but at that point we're ... well, you can start arguing nything you like at that point I guess.
I'm not down on religions per se. I think it's important people try to understand the universe in as many ways as they can. Western science doesn't have all the answers. But you've got to question the questioning. If you see my meaning.

[plaamook]

And there has never been a war waged by invasion of a country by a buddhist country for religious purposes or anything like religious purposes. Hinduism either.

That's completely untrue. Right now, the Buddhists in Myanmar are genocidally killing the Rohingya Muslim people. Google it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Rohi ... gee_crisis

Plus there have been wars of conquest by Buddhist nations like Thailand (over Cambodia) Vietnam (over Cambodia) the Khmer Empire etc.
Hindu Empires have abounded too. Have you not read the history of India? The caste system is essentially apartheid too. Systemised racism. The light skinned Brahmins at the top, and the dark skinned 'untouchable' Dalits at the bottom.

And generally when people practising a pacifist religion like Christianity, go to war, it's them failing to practice their religion properly, or misinterpreting it. Jesus fought no physical war. The Amish Christians and countless others have been pacifists. It's not Jesus' fault people ignore his teaching of "do not resist an evil person" etc. Nor is it Buddha's fault that Buddhists have gone to war either. Atheists have gone to war. The atheist communists of Russia and China have committed unspeakable atrocities. Don't go blaming religions that seek to change/mitigate human nature, for the depravities of human nature.

Yeah, you're right w the burma thing but I still want to see the fine print. And by that I mean go there and talk to people. And I'm not sure how many asian wars have been waged over religious reasons or just cultural differences and greed. Thailand, viet nam, and cambodia are all buddhist. Japan and china are or have also been buddhist but that didn't stop em from trying to beat the shit out of each other. But they were'nt out evengelising. 'Buddha' didn't tell the Thais that they were better perople and so had some divine right to go invade this that orther other country and impose their way of thinking on them.
Hindhu, india...That's another matter. They had internal strife but they didn't exactly start much of an expansionist empire based on the fundamental rightness of their god, which ever one htey might pick to be on top. And they don't go in for much in fighting over which hindhu god is better. They just get on with it. Well, they get on with duking it out with other religions in india, but that's mainly to do, or was to do, with islam. I don't think the hindhus and the sikhs have much of a problem with eachother. Or the buddhists. But the muslims did invade india and wreck a load of shit in the process. And they're still wrecking shit elsewhere. Don't get a lot of sikhs blowing up ancient jain temples. Do get a lot of chistians going abroad and delaring the local population as being heathens and godless, then trying to convert them. By force if need be. You can argue the one off cases all you like but there is no hindhu version of the inquisition, where forigners are forced to accept the fact that everything is god and divine fundamentally or they get tortured to death.

Anyway, who cares. Believe what you like. We can all believe what we like. And we can fuck who we like, and eat what we like, and so on. And we can do this in countries where religion minds its own bloody business. When religion stops minding it's own business problems ensue. Why? Because trying to explain to an atheist that 'God' doesn't want them to fuck other people in the ass doesn't make much sense to a person who thinks the idea of a creator god is a load of jibber jabber in the first place. May as well tell em Father Christmas isn't going to bring them toys if they don't stop interfering with themselves under the bed sheets.

Little edit here...The whole light skin/dark skin thing in india? Post mugal invasion. Pre mugal invasion they were all dark skinned.

[plaamook]

Men have forgotten God...
http://www.roca.org/OA/36/36h.htm

Yep, they sure have. But the term 'God' has many meanings. He could have equally said 'men have forgotten truth' or 'men have forgotten kindness' or even 'women have forgotten something'.

There have been many many noble and religious people over the centuries that have explained many things cosmic and ethically evolved by using the term 'God' but funnily enough many of them have been persecuted by the religious groups they appear to have been connected to. Spinoza (a personal favourite of mine) talked about things in terms of 'God'. And he was pretty far out too, look him up. He was also excommunicated by the Dutch Jews of his time for doing so. Wacky world. All I can think is that the truely enlightened (and I'm not necessarilly using that term in any kind if mystical asian sort of way) who come from a religious background end up questioning things in that framework. But that hardly ends up being an argument for the value of religion in general when many other enlightened people end up coming to very similar conclusions without the use of God/god/gods and many more people end up useing their religion to either a) stick their heads in the sand or b) clobber some one elses head!

So in the end I guess I agree with your quote in a way, except that I think that the religions of the world have forgotten god most of all.

[plaamook]

Yeah it's the dogmatic approach in general that fucks it all up

What about a dogmatic approach to dogmatism?
Why not just let people be?
If people want to be dogmatic about things, who are you to dogmatically say they're wrong?

Because when you let some people be they don't let other people be? I'm sure there's no end to this...

[chk071]

The majority of the world are religious. The majority of the world is not fighting wars.

Yet religious fundamentalism seems to be a major motivation to do so.

[plaamook]

Anyway look, I'm not against the basic premis behind all religions. I just think there comes a point where something had out lived its usefulness (some things get there pretty fast...). Sitting there toiling over these rotting books trying to figure out who meant what and who's reading it right or wrong...it's madness. If we all agree that all they were basically trying to get us to do in the first place was be kind towards one another why don't we just do that? And if we can't, if we actually 'need' religions and gods in order to not act like count, why aren't they working? And if they're not working, if they're actually causing more problems, why the hell are we still following them?!!!

[Riverman]

The thing is many religions actually preach not just a cosmic view but a socio/political one as well. How to eat, pray, fuck, and so on.

Thank goodness for that or humans would behave like animals. You know, rape, pillage, cannibalise children/enemies etc. You know all that stuff that animals do to each other. "Might makes right" and all that.
I mean all Confucianism is, is a social organisation. A desire way to relate to each other. Singapore is Confucian.
Every religion agrees that there's something wrong with us. The religions just have different solutions.
But you look at the world, at the way the rich exploit the poor, the refugee crisis going on in the planet, that way that people who love each other hurt each other, and tell me, that humanity doesn't need God or religions to try and make sense of it all, and find a better way than the law of the jungle to live together.

Yeah, but we don't actually need all that religious crap to be kind towards one another.

Many people do actually. Maybe you're a perfect person who's naturally kind to everybody.

The world is full of countless people who've converted and completely changed for the better however.

Another way of looking at it is that 'God' who is a god of love and so on made a world where things need to eat other things in order to live. He/She/It made the universe into might makes right ,kill or be killed. That is if you buy into creation theories. It is humans that invented kindness, not god, God, or any other god. Or I guess you could say that 'god' invented kindness through humans, but at that point we're ... well, you can start arguing nything you like at that point I guess.
I'm not down on religions per se. I think it's important people try to understand the universe in as many ways as they can. Western science doesn't have all the answers. But you've got to question the questioning. If you see my meaning.

Science doesn't answer everything: "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

[Riverman]

Yeah, you're right w the burma thing but I still want to see the fine print. And by that I mean go there and talk to people. And I'm not sure how many asian wars have been waged over religious reasons or just cultural differences and greed. Thailand, viet nam, and cambodia are all buddhist. Japan and china are or have also been buddhist but that didn't stop em from trying to beat the shit out of each other. But they were'nt out evengelising. 'Buddha' didn't tell the Thais that they were better perople and so had some divine right to go invade this that orther other country and impose their way of thinking on them.
Hindhu, india...That's another matter. They had internal strife but they didn't exactly start much of an expansionist empire based on the fundamental rightness of their god, which ever one htey might pick to be on top. And they don't go in for much in fighting over which hindhu god is better. They just get on with it. Well, they get on with duking it out with other religions in india, but that's mainly to do, or was to do, with islam. I don't think the hindhus and the sikhs have much of a problem with eachother. Or the buddhists. But the muslims did invade india and wreck a load of shit in the process. And they're still wrecking shit elsewhere. Don't get a lot of sikhs blowing up ancient jain temples. Do get a lot of chistians going abroad and delaring the local population as being heathens and godless, then trying to convert them. By force if need be. You can argue the one off cases all you like but there is no hindhu version of the inquisition, where forigners are forced to accept the fact that everything is god and divine fundamentally or they get tortured to death.

Anyway, who cares. Believe what you like. We can all believe what we like. And we can fuck who we like, and eat what we like, and so on. And we can do this in countries where religion minds its own bloody business. When religion stops minding it's own business problems ensue. Why? Because trying to explain to an atheist that 'God' doesn't want them to fuck other people in the ass doesn't make much sense to a person who thinks the idea of a creator god is a load of jibber jabber in the first place. May as well tell em Father Christmas isn't going to bring them toys if they don't stop interfering with themselves under the bed sheets.

Little edit here...The whole light skin/dark skin thing in india? Post mugal invasion. Pre mugal invasion they were all dark skinned.

1. Ashoka, leader of Mauryan Empire sponsored aggressive Buddhist expansion. Sending Monks out, sending his own kids into Sri Lanka for example. China wasn't Buddhist, yet China ended up Buddhist... how else do you think word was spread other than "evengelism"?

2. The Mugals were Mongols. Look at the name. The light skinned Aryans came well before.1500 BC some would say, conquering the darker skinned Dravidians. I repeat, the Hindu caste system they imposed is essentially apartheid.

3. Buddhists have done their fair share of persecuting unorthoxy and what they consider false doctrines. Read up on the history of the Dorje Shugden, and how even the current Dalai Lama is repressing them:
http://www.dorjeshugden.com/all-article ... secutions/
He's not all smiles. He's the "god-king" of Tibet. Imagine if the Pope was considered to actually BE Jesus, and ruled all Italy...

4. Yeah you speak about freedom to do whatever we like, yet people use that freedom to murder, steal, rape, lie etc. So we need laws.
People often people rail on about how religion is only about critiquing people's sex lives, forgetting that all laws of any sort are based on morality: in the west on top of a base of Christian morality. Emperor Constantine banned infanticide after become a Christian. Christianity reigned in the autocratic, despotic power of the father in pre-Christian Rome. Christianity founded schools - Yale, Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard etc - charities - Red Cross, Salvation Army etc - countless hospitals. Christian Monks in England brought literacy, trade and agriculture to the piratical Saxon culture, who'd decimated British/Roman culture. You could even argue that capitalism, communism and secular humanism are the bastard children of European Protestant Christianity.

The difference that religions have made to their cultures is astronomical. It's not just anti-gay or whatever people like to label churches now. (There are gay churches, gay Episcopal bishops btw) Speaking against adultery protects families and kids especially. Speaking against sex before marriage protects people from making quick decisions they'll potentially regret. It's wisdom, not authoritarianism. And plenty of people sit in the church and then go home and do exactly what the preacher encouraged them not to do.
But the religious esteem of human life, speaking against murder, mistreatment is very evident.

Right now for example, we have a worldwide refugee crisis. The bible is very clear on welcoming refugees in, and treating them with kindness, fairness etc. Is this a bad thing to you? Is this something that the world should just ignore? Just be afraid and let people die?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolso ... our-midst/

Exodus 22:21 (NRSV)
21 You shall not wrong or oppress a resident alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.

Exodus 23:9 (NRSV)
9 You shall not oppress a resident alien; you know the heart of an alien, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt.

Leviticus 19:33 (NRSV)
33 When an alien resides with you in your land, you shall not oppress the alien.

Leviticus 23:22 (NRSV)
22 When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not reap to the very edges of your field, or gather the gleanings of your harvest; you shall leave them for the poor and for the alien: I am the Lord your God.

Leviticus 24:22 (NRSV)
22 You shall have one law for the alien and for the citizen: for I am the Lord your God.

Numbers 15:16 (NRSV)
16 You and the alien who resides with you shall have the same law and the same ordinance.

Deuteronomy 1:16 (NRSV)
16 I charged your judges at that time: “Give the members of your community a fair hearing, and judge rightly between one person and another, whether citizen or resident alien.

Deuteronomy 24:20-21 (NRSV)
20 When you beat your olive trees, do not strip what is left; it shall be for the alien, the orphan, and the widow.
21 When you gather the grapes of your vineyard, do not glean what is left; it shall be for the alien, the orphan, and the widow.

Deuteronomy 27:19 (NRSV)
19 “Cursed be anyone who deprives the alien, the orphan, and the widow of justice.” All the people shall say, “Amen!”

Jeremiah 7:4-12 (NRSV)
4 Do not trust in these deceptive words: “This is the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord, the temple of the Lord.”
5 For if you truly amend your ways and your doings, if you truly act justly one with another,
6 if you do not oppress the alien, the orphan, and the widow, or shed innocent blood in this place, and if you do not go after other gods to your own hurt,
7 then I will dwell with you in this place, in the land that I gave of old to your ancestors forever and ever.

Zechariah 7:10 (NRSV)
10 do not oppress the widow, the orphan, the alien, or the poor; and do not devise evil in your hearts against one another.

Malachi 3:5 (NRSV)
5 Then I will draw near to you for judgment; I will be swift to bear witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired workers in their wages, the widow and the orphan, against those who thrust aside the alien, and do not fear me, says the Lord of hosts.

Psalm 39:12 (NRSV)
12 “Hear my prayer, O Lord, and give ear to my cry; do not hold your peace at my tears. For I am your passing guest, an alien, like all my forebears.

Ephesians 2:12 (NRSV)
12 remember that you were at that time without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

Ephesians 2:19 (NRSV)
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are citizens with the saints and also members of the household of God,

1 Peter 1:1-2 (NRSV)
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To the exiles of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen and destined by God the Father and sanctified by the Spirit to be obedient to Jesus Christ and to be sprinkled with his blood: May grace and peace be yours in abundance.

1 Peter 2:11-12
11 Beloved, I urge you as aliens and exiles to abstain from the desires of the flesh that wage war against the soul. 12 Conduct yourselves honorably among the Gentiles, so that, though they malign you as evildoers, they may see your honorable deeds and glorify God when he comes to judge.

Romans 12:13 (NRSV)
13 Contribute to the needs of the saints; extend hospitality to strangers.

Hebrews 13:2 (NRSV)
2 Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers, for by doing that some have entertained angels without knowing it.

1 Peter 3:9 (NRSV)
Be hospitable to one another without complaining.

[Riverman]

The majority of the world are religious. The majority of the world is not fighting wars.

Yet religious fundamentalism seems to be a major motivation to do so.

How many wars have the Amish fought?

[Riverman]

Sitting there toiling over these rotting books trying to figure out who meant what and who's reading it right or wrong...it's madness. If we all agree that all they were basically trying to get us to do in the first place was be kind towards one another why don't we just do that? And if we can't, if we actually 'need' religions and gods in order to not act like count, why aren't they working? And if they're not working, if they're actually causing more problems, why the hell are we still following them?!!!

You have a pretty poor understanding of religion bro.... sitting over rotting books? Really?
The better question should be, if so many people are following religions, and religions are actually GROWING worldwide, why are you presuming they don't work?

[Riverman]

Sitting there toiling over these rotting books

This is a Christian meeting. Are they sitting over rotting books?

This is what they're singing to their creator:

In the process
In the waiting
You're making melodies over me
And your presence
is the promise
For I am a pilgrim on a journey

You will lift my head above the mighty waves
You are able to keep me from stumbling
And in my weakness
you are the strength that comes from within
Good shepherd of my soul
Take my hand and lead me on

You make my footsteps and my path secure
So walking on water is just the beginning
Cause my faith to arise, stand at attention
For You are calling me to greater things

Oh
how I love You
how I love You
You have not forsaken me
Oh
How I love You
how I love You
With you is where I want to be

[gak]

The majority of the world are religious. The majority of the world is not fighting wars.

Yet religious fundamentalism seems to be a major motivation to do so.

How many wars have the Amish fought?

Watch out for the Amish gangs muthafucka!

[Gorgon]

Somebody's been to God's not dead 2.

[Riverman]

Somebody's been to God's not dead 2.

What is that?

[plaamook]

@riverman

Your ideas about the history and 'religions' of asia are pretty skewed. You might want to research that stuff a little more. It's too tedious to type it all here, I can't be bothered.

As for the rest of it, yeah, there are people all over the world being assholes to one another to greater or lesser degrees. Some religious, some not. At least we can all agree on that, eh?

I think that science has thus far failed to give rise to a vision of reality that truely inspires people on all levels of society towards kindness and more shall we say 'enlightened living'. I guess peple see it as cold and heartless and often responsible for many of the problems in the world. Too bad really. In fact science runs way way deeper than people often think. Mathematics alone is enough to over turn most of the dumb stuff people believe in but very few people can or do get into it that far. In my opinion, its worth the effort.

[plaamook]

The better question should be, if so many people are following religions, and religions are actually GROWING worldwide, why are you presuming they don't work?[/b]

There are a lot of things GROWING worldwide, doesn't mean they actually work or that they are even positive forces in the world, just means lots of people like them for some reason.

[Gorgon]

I think that science has thus far failed to give rise to a vision of reality that truely inspires people on all levels of society towards kindness and more shall we say 'enlightened living'. I guess peple see it as cold and heartless and often responsible for many of the problems in the world.

Well that might just be it. People are seeking something to blame everything on. They blame other people, other countries, people of other skin/belief/you name it, for their own problems. Science isn't something you can blame. Science is the explanation of things how they are. But most people are stupid or ignorant (or both) so they need a quick answer to their problems and that's where religion comes in.

[Riverman]

@riverman

Your ideas about the history and 'religions' of asia are pretty skewed. You might want to research that stuff a little more. It's too tedious to type it all here, I can't be bothered.

LOL I posted links and news articles. I've spent good time informing myself.
But what, you contest it with a "just because"?
Show me that the Dalai Lama isn't effectively a god-king. He's the Buddha reincarnated, and the temporal ruler.
Show me he's not persecuting the Shudgen as they're claiming. Show me the claims of persecution by the 6th Dalai Lama isn't factual.
Show me the Rohingya aren't being genocidally killed by the Buddhists in Myanmar.
Show me Ashoka didn't send missionaries out, and didn't send his children to Sri Lanka to convert.
Show me an alternate explanation for the rise of Buddhism in China other than due to Buddhist missionaries.
You've got nothing. You posted nothing, you retorted with nothing. Nothing but an insult based on fanciful nonsense.
Doctor heal thyself and follow the many links I posted.

As for the rest of it, yeah, there are people all over the world being assholes to one another to greater or lesser degrees. Some religious, some not. At least we can all agree on that, eh?

I think that science has thus far failed to give rise to a vision of reality that truely inspires people on all levels of society towards kindness and more shall we say 'enlightened living'. I guess people see it as cold and heartless and often responsible for many of the problems in the world. Too bad really. In fact science runs way way deeper than people often think. Mathematics alone is enough to over turn most of the dumb stuff people believe in but very few people can or do get into it that far. In my opinion, its worth the effort.

Science never will. Check the Einstein quote I posted. Science is just a method of acquiring certain information. It's never going to give meaning and purpose. Faith and love do that. Science HELPs people's faith. It can open the window of understanding, and enhance one's faith and wonder and appreciation. But you need to have faith in something for it to enhance it.

That's why you and others miss the whole point.... you think science and faith compete. They don't compete. They answer different questions, have different purposes, and can be used harmoniously by the same individual. That's why there are Christian scientists. Why so many of the early Western scientists, upon whose shoulders we now stand, were driven by a Protestant Christian worldview and morality and a desire to understand God's creation. That was my initial point in this thread, and as it's come full circle, I will now bow out.

Thanks for the discussion.

[Gaja]

I think that science has thus far failed to give rise to a vision of reality that truely inspires people on all levels of society towards kindness and more shall we say 'enlightened living'. I guess peple see it as cold and heartless and often responsible for many of the problems in the world.

Well that might just be it. People are seeking something to blame everything on. They blame other people, other countries, people of other skin/belief/you name it, for their own problems. Science isn't something you can blame. Science is the explanation of things how they are. But most people are stupid or ignorant (or both) so they need a quick answer to their problems and that's where religion comes in.

While I understand the idea, I must say it is not entirely accurate. True religious practice (and belief) has nothing to do with "quick answers, since true religious understanding requires a lot of practice and patience.
It is the same as with science. Many people simply "believe" what they read when it says "scientists found *something spectacular*" and don't question it "because science". Scientific experiments prove that certain things happen a certain way in very specific conditions (lab conditions), and not always can they be translated immediately to open systems without these specific conditions. Simply believing without researching isn't very helpful regardless of what you believe in.

[EpiGenetik]

the earth is flat because the bible told us so.

.....and Bible believing protestant Christians kickstarted modern science in Northern Europe.

Don't try slagging off the bible when it's spawned so many Jewish & Christian scientists.

Ah, 'tis rare that we see such a splendid and pure an example of complete bullshit.

Except that it's true. Read your history:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C ... technology

No. Sorry. You are wrong. A further apology is needed from me because I can't be arsed going further into it. There are several referenced works which go into detail about this, and many similar deceptions where the Church has claimed credit for something which had nothing to do with it. Christianity is a scam, nothing more; anyone who reads the Bible end-to-end should be very aware of this - if you're not immediately aware of this then there is very little I can do for you, and thus I won't try.

[plaamook]

The Dalai Lama isn't a god kind or anything like it. They don't have gods in buddhism. He's meant to be the incarnation of the bodhisattva of compassion. Chenrezig. Whidch isn't anything like a god. And he probably isn't the reincarnation of anyhting. Even by the tibetan's standards. They have a lot of political problems surrounding things like that. And he isn't a ruler of anything. Hs's the head of the Glukpa school of tibentan buddhism and the 'political' leader of tibet in exile. But there are 5 different schools in tibet and most of em go thier own way.
I don't know anything about the 6ht DL. Don't care. It represents a pretty miniscule aspect of it all both in terms of tibetan buddhism and buddhism as a whole.
Buddhists in Burma, like I said, you're probably right. You keep arguing with that one if you like though.
I never said buddhist didn't try to spread buddhism. I said they didn;t force it on people. And generally they don't. You wanna go find one or two examples over the 2500 years that slipped throgh, go nuts. It must have happened at least once, right? But line it up next to the abrahamic 3 and see who's way the fuck ahead on shoving themselves down people's throats, making no sense to anyone except themselves, and persecuting eachother and everone else over docrinal bullshit.
You're right, I've got nothing. I've got experience which is quite a different thing. You want links, go find em yourself.

And The Mogul Empire in India? They were muslims from persia, not monglolians. Shah Jahan, you know who he is? Taj Mahal and all that?

As for science, einstein and all the rest,
How can you sit ther and link western science and chistianity when , really, the whole shebang practically didn't happen for all the jesus followers who didn't want the world to be round or for gravity to exist or for evolution to exist, man I'm not even going to sit here and list every fucking scientist over the past 1000 years that has been locked up, driven off, or killed because they discovered something that wasn't in the bible. Gimme a break. Yeah, the past few hundred years were driven by people that were technically christians but they didn't have much of a choice ontil recently did they. Now that we can choose, how many of the big BIG thinkers of the past century where actually creationist christians? And I'm not talking aboiut einstien mentioning god the way that he does, I'm talking about true believers. Few and falling, but that's just a guess. Hell, even I was born a chatholic for fucks sake!
I don't think science and 'faith' compete. I think blind faith and science are incompatable but it isn;t competition exactly. People compete. I'm saying that from the point of view of science it is possible ot have something greater than 'faith' that can encompass what people now use religion for and what science is also used for. Understanding the universe and our position in it. And being decent human beings. Science can do that. It just hasn't yet on a common level because it's complexity confuses the ignorant. And it's trying to swallow something a lot bigger than the bible. Give it time. The question is always the same in the end and most religions can't answer it. Feeling like you have an answer because you like to sing about jesus isn't actually an answer, it's a feeling. Like I can feel like an asshole for wasting my time with this in the first place. And I do.

And right now I feel like leaving this 'discussion' because I'm no good at arguing on forums (slow fingers) and I don't enjoy this kind of shit unless I'm sitting across from you and we're drinking beer together as god/God/the gods intended.

bye

[EpiGenetik]

It is the same as with science. Many people simply "believe" what they read when it says "scientists found *something spectacular*" and don't question it "because science". Scientific experiments prove that certain things happen a certain way in very specific conditions (lab conditions), and not always can they be translated immediately to open systems without these specific conditions. Simply believing without researching isn't very helpful regardless of what you believe in.

Very true. Many don't seem to understand that what is written as "it appears" does not mean "it is". Most scientific answers are usually the first sign that more questions need to be asked.

[gak]

Some dumb-ass muthafuckas in the world.

Riddle me this, if the bible is true and there is to be "Armageddon" ... what is the dumbass waiting for? People to kill each other off first? Trump?

How much more fucked up is the world to get before that prophecy comes true?

Anyways, back to the OP. Photoshop made all the photos of a "round" earth.

[plaamook]

It is the same as with science. Many people simply "believe" what they read when it says "scientists found *something spectacular*" and don't question it "because science". Scientific experiments prove that certain things happen a certain way in very specific conditions (lab conditions), and not always can they be translated immediately to open systems without these specific conditions. Simply believing without researching isn't very helpful regardless of what you believe in.

Very true. Many don't seem to understand that what is written as "it appears" does not mean "it is". Most scientific answers are usually the first sign that more questions need to be asked.

Yeah, I agree totally. That's what I mean when I say you need to spend time digging into it. Science and science journals want to sell. They spectacularise things. Ok.
But that's mostly the surface stuff. Interesting but the deeper stuff, the implications in maths etc. is where I think the real shit's happening.